When are we allowed to let Hearing people join our culture and all.

[rockdrummer]

I'm all for welcoming the hearing people to want to learn about the Deaf Culture and all that. I think it is a great thing that they want to get involved to learn much more about the Deaf Culture. The community is already way too divided because of the opinions, points of view, so and on. Only if we had tried to understand how to bridge the gap, communication barriers, then the world would have been much easier for all of the cultures but unfortunately there will always be communication barriers. Awareness and Education is imperative because without it, We are left in the dark age (so to speak).

Thank you Jolie! I totally agree with you on education and awareness. But the question is how would you go about educating and raising awareness? Is anybody and/or group out there doing that?

 

[ITPjohn]

Thank you Jolie! I totally agree with you on education and awareness. But the question is how would you go about educating and raising awareness? Is anybody and/or group out there doing that?

Yes. I graduated from a terp training program that has over 500 students. In all my ASL classes we learned signs AND Deaf culture. As ASL classes become more popular and available, there will be more newbies learning about the language and culture. I knew a district judge who was taking classes after losing his hearing late in life.

 

[Passivist]

There has always been communication issues between hearing and deaf, it's no excuse, but never more than now, has mainstream put so much effort into trying, the very least the deaf community can do is reciprocate, and not adopt an attitude of distrust to everything, and accuse people of undermining their culture because they attempt communication, or want to enter this 'world' to break down barriers.

Deaf want 'into' mainstream ? but with 'strings' ? sorry, it doesn't work that way ! Access comes at a price, but this isn't at the price of deaf culture, since integrating that into mainstream enhances both sides. Wouldn't it be just great NOT to have to rely on an interpreter to find out things and know what poeople are saying ? there is an opportuity for a LOT more hearing to sign now, who can free deaf from this reliance, so equal access and independance can become a reality, and not, a hype, not all of us want to be in a perpetual state of 'war' with mainstream, we see this as a way out of the isolation deafness thrusts upon us, and we can't complain hearing are to blame ALL the time !

I don't see this affects deaf cultural aspiration one bit. There are too many determined a fence will stay in place between hearing and deaf, mainly because it suits THEIR aspiration !

 

[loml]

There has always been communication issues between hearing and deaf, it's no excuse, but never more than now, has mainstream put so much effort into trying, the very least the deaf community can do is reciprocate, and not adopt an attitude of distrust to everything, and accuse people of undermining their culture because they attempt communication, or want to enter this 'world' to break down barriers.

Deaf want 'into' mainstream ? but with 'strings' ? sorry, it doesn't work that way ! Access comes at a price, but this isn't at the price of deaf culture, since integrating that into mainstream enhances both sides. Wouldn't it be just great NOT to have to rely on an interpreter to find out things and know what poeople are saying ? there is an opportuity for a LOT more hearing to sign now, who can free deaf from this reliance, so equal access and independance can become a reality, and not, a hype, not all of us want to be in a perpetual state of 'war' with mainstream, we see this as a way out of the isolation deafness thrusts upon us, and we can't complain hearing are to blame ALL the time !

I don't see this affects deaf cultural aspiration one bit. There are too many determined a fence will stay in place between hearing and deaf, mainly because it suits THEIR aspiration !

Passivist

there is an opportuity for a LOT more hearing to sign now, who can free deaf from this reliance, so equal access and independance can become a reality,

Indeed more hearing people are learning sign, but imo, for the majority the level of skill and the involvement that they have with deaf people is limited.

As more hearing people learning sign and deaf culture, to my knowledge there is no mention of the quality of education recieved by deaf people and the real barriers faced with bilingualism. Complete inclusion can only occur when everything is on the table, from diagnosis to independant living.

 

[Rose Immortal]

Indeed more hearing people are learning sign, but imo, for the majority the level of skill and the involvement that they have with deaf people is limited.

I'm not sure they know where to go in some cases, or know if they'll be welcome. That's kinda the boat I'm in. I would have NO clue where to practice with anybody (anybody friendly, I mean!!) if I were to start ASL class today.

 

[Interpretrator]

I would have NO clue where to practice with anybody (anybody friendly, I mean!!) if I were to start ASL class today.

Presumably, and hopefully, once you found that ASL class, your teachers would tell you how to find your way into the deaf community.

 

[Heath]

As a Deaf person born into a hearing family. I see both sides of each world. Each has positive things and each has negative things. I try to take the best of both positive things and draw strength from each one.

I have had Deaf people come up to me and tell me,

" You are with the Deaf world or you are not ! "

That makes me very mad because I do not appreciate Deaf militants all hung up on Deaf pride Deaf power, I mean that is good but you have to stay with the reality on the ground and for Deaf people to say that to my face

" You are with Deaf world or you are not ! "

That just makes me want to mess up that person so bad that he will learn to never say that to my face ever again, on the another hand I never had a hearing person say

" You are with us or with the Deaf people over there. "

I never had anyone say that to me.

It is always better to go with the reality on the ground. Hearing people are welcome as long as they are not here to take advantage of the Deaf community and are real people who are really wanting to help the Deaf community. I have no problem with that, unfortunately some Deaf people have a problem with that. :roll:

 

[Taylor]

I'm not sure they know where to go in some cases, or know if they'll be welcome. That's kinda the boat I'm in. I would have NO clue where to practice with anybody (anybody friendly, I mean!!) if I were to start ASL class today.

Rose Immortal, take a look at asl.meetup.com There are probably groups in your area. I do not know how similar the groups are, but one of them local to me does not require you to be in a college class nor fluent. It gives people the opportunity to communicate in ASL based on their experience and level. I have not had a chance to attend one of the local meetings yet but that is because of scheduling. The group I joined has a meeting coming up soon and I should be able to make this. I have corresponded with a few people in the group and everyone sounds pretty cool and welcoming to anyone, no matter their signing level.

 

[Passivist]

<Indeed more hearing people are learning sign, but imo, for the majority the level of skill and the involvement that they have with deaf people is limited.>

Of course it is, to be expected when the deaf community is really blocking a lot of involvement. In the UK interaction with 'real deaf people' via courses and classes is virtually nil, a few may turn up as teachers. The approach taken is pretty dire in my view, it puts some deaf centre-stage, and some may even acquire proper signing skills inter-acting with such a deaf tutor, but at end of class the barrier goes straight back up again, as the deaf tutor reverts to the deaf environment and the students go back to their hearing ones.

This is like school ! As we all know only inter-action and experience with deaf signers is going to improve any skill, it's not really happening, despite all the classes going on, funding going in, and sign awareness spreading. We had 3 students approach a deaf club in the UK, they were rebuffed by the deaf there who said 'This is OUR area, we use it to get away from the stresses hearing put on us." Some would suggest this is NOT Helpful ! As it turned out these 3 young people were at college learning to be support workers FOR the deaf, we may well have lost them.

Another view we got was "Hearing signers dilute our language, dilute our culture." It wouldn't, if deaf got involved..... A lot of deaf in the UK ask why the deaf community is shrinking at such a rapid rate ? Perhaps reading some of this would explain a lot.....

 

[rockdrummer]

Presumably, and hopefully, once you found that ASL class, your teachers would tell you how to find your way into the deaf community.

If it were only that easy.

 

[rockdrummer]

Rose Immortal, take a look at asl.meetup.com

I actually signed up for this site. It seems like nobody want's to step up to form a meetup group and it's most likely because meetup.com wants to charge you a fee to organize meetings at your own house.

 

[starrygaze]

As a Deaf person born into a hearing family. I see both sides of each world. Each has positive things and each has negative things. I try to take the best of both positive things and draw strength from each one.

I have had Deaf people come up to me and tell me,

" You are with the Deaf world or you are not ! "

That makes me very mad because I do not appreciate Deaf militants all hung up on Deaf pride Deaf power, I mean that is good but you have to stay with the reality on the ground and for Deaf people to say that to my face

" You are with Deaf world or you are not ! "

That just makes me want to mess up that person so bad that he will learn to never say that to my face ever again, on the another hand I never had a hearing person say

" You are with us or with the Deaf people over there. "

I never had anyone say that to me.

It is always better to go with the reality on the ground. Hearing people are welcome as long as they are not here to take advantage of the Deaf community and are real people who are really wanting to help the Deaf community. I have no problem with that, unfortunately some Deaf people have a problem with that. :roll:

I agreed with you. Deaf and hearing people should be equal.

Yeah I know my friend went to Twin city in Minnestoa and learned from deaf gangs. They hate him not get involving with deaf people or group at bowling and pushed him too hard to get along with deaf communities.

He moved here and looked changed. His signing is too fast and said Deaf is POWER! He think hearing people does not understand about deaf. I remember I once visited him for few days and he brought me to Mall of America and one deaf fellow us. And strange deaf pulled him to his side I stood lonely in bar in mall. That was stupid! He came back to me and said sorry.

I show my friend about here AD and hope he will join here!

 

[Sweetmind]

There has always been communication issues between hearing and deaf, it's no excuse, but never more than now, has mainstream put so much effort into trying, the very least the deaf community can do is reciprocate, and not adopt an attitude of distrust to everything, and accuse people of undermining their culture because they attempt communication, or want to enter this 'world' to break down barriers.

Deaf want 'into' mainstream ? but with 'strings' ? sorry, it doesn't work that way ! Access comes at a price, but this isn't at the price of deaf culture, since integrating that into mainstream enhances both sides. Wouldn't it be just great NOT to have to rely on an interpreter to find out things and know what poeople are saying ? there is an opportuity for a LOT more hearing to sign now, who can free deaf from this reliance, so equal access and independance can become a reality, and not, a hype, not all of us want to be in a perpetual state of 'war' with mainstream, we see this as a way out of the isolation deafness thrusts upon us, and we can't complain hearing are to blame ALL the time !

OH YEA! I totally disagree with you.. Since we were not allowed to have ASL as a true language after all Hearing people are learning ASL. What is this? Whats the heck going on? NO wonder many people do not understand us very well since some ASL classes were taught SEE. Ha! No wonder the problem hasnt ending yet after all audist people dont have any respect for ASL from the start. PERIOD! It s all about HEAR AND SPEAK ONLY! that I dont agree with from the start. It has not solve the problem yet. Why is that?

Why do we have tooo many artitifical languages from the start? ASL hasnt existed after ORAL RULES TOOK OVER for years and years. So what is your point to blame on Deaf people only! Why bother to force them as a hearing child all the time. You have no respect for their true identity from the start. Thats their ATTITUDE, it hasnt bit changed very much. Thats the real problem.

NO one ever accept us from the start after all they think they have the right to conform or manipulate our true identity. Why cant they handle with us very well?

Communication is the key! Do we have the right to feel comfortable in our own true language? YES I BELIEVE IT SO!

Why cant we just have one true language for Deaf people s rights. Why do hearing people have one true language for American people's right? Why cant we have BI and BI language whlie hearing people can have their BI BI language? I think it s all mixed up in your head as far as I can see.

Why destroy our true language from the start? It doenst make any sense for audist people have their rights to create more artifiicial languages whle it snt completely work out for many Deaf children. I find this is very odd strange for audist people that they think they know it all about our deafness and us Deaf children 's needs that relates HEAR AND SPEAK only for SPEECH ONLY! We most Deaf people do not hear everything that you are wasting time to battle with us all along. Why cant you face Deaf Reality that we do not hear everything with those stupid devices? Jeez! Many of us can communicate with hearing people in many ways that we could find, however hearing people dont want to take their time to communicate with us as usual. They do have the barrier of communication toward us in many ways that they dont accept us competely. PERIOD!

There are many of us can speak without devices. We have the right to feel comfortable that fits us to use our hands to communicate with people. So be it! Speech/Lipreading is not 100 percent successful in this society as far as I KNOW IT SO. We do not hear everything. SO BE IT!

ATTITUDE is the answer that s when there are too many conflict interests between audist people and Deaf rights as usual. They dont have a great feelings or full acceptance for Deaf children s natural abilities. It was never have two way streets for Deaf children all along.

Thank you!
Sweetmind

 

[Sweetmind]

http://www.aapd.com/stories/barrierUnseen.html

Barriers Unseen

by Olegario "Ollie" D. Cantos VII, Esq.

Without a doubt, no one may credibly disagree with the assertion that we as people with disabilities must have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else, but what exactly does that mean? How will society come to embody a celebration of differences and a spirit of equality rather than paternalism? This question is sometimes as difficult to answer as it is to solve, because paternalism is not always obvious and degrading as in someone blatantly saying, "Awww, look at the handicapped person. Let's do what we can to minimize what must be a debilitating condition characterized by a lower quality of life." Rather, the paternalism (though not consciously intended by any means) takes form in more subtle but no less harmful ways. The attitudes, both of people with and without disabilities, are key to making the difference between failure and success, ignorance and understanding, and limited beliefs and boundless expectations. The following true story illustrates why legislation, litigation, and direct advocacy are only PART of the ultimate solution. The rest must take form in good old-fashioned basic education.

One day, as part of my participation in a local Big Brother organization in Los Angeles several years ago, I took my then-11-year-old little brother, Seth, to a bowling alley where (contrary to baseball) strikes were the goal rather than the critical event to avoid. When I was done with my first frame, Seth told me that people were watching me and smiling, apparently because they had not seen a blind person bowl before. After our first game, we agreed to ask the alley staff to put in the bumpers so as to remove the proven likelihood that the ball would consistently roll into the gutter in spite of repeated and passionate efforts to have the ball do otherwise. When the bumpers were installed, the gentleman said to me, "This'll be great, because it'll help you not to bowl gutter balls." At first glance, there really seems to be nothing wrong with this statement, because it was true. With the bumpers firmly in place, any time the ball rolls to one side or the other, it would simply deflect from the side, thereby significantly increasing the chances that more pins would be knocked down. Also, since I am not able to see where the pins are, it may arguably "level the playing field" by compensating for my not seeing where I should bowl the ball.

Here is the unexpected twist: The bumpers were NOT installed for me but for my little brother. He was a beginner and was not happy with his score during the first game, and he wanted to have the bumpers put in so as to help him out a bit. Meanwhile, I have been a bowler for many years and, as a matter of personal practice and preference, unless wanted by those accompanying me who wished to use bumpers themselves, I do not use bumpers, because I want to learn how to do better without modifications to the game. Notice what the gentleman did NOT say when talking to me about the bumpers. He never said that I could not bowl well, nor did he say that he thought that I should bowl apart from those without disabilities. He never made a wisecrack remark, nor do I imagine he would have ever wanted to. He never spoke to me as if I were a child, and I would venture to say that he did not give a second thought to his passing remark. Yet, what he did not say was just as important as what he DID say. Because I was blind and my brother was not, he merely ASSUMED that the bumpers were for me. Why WAS that? The logic in his mind would undoubtedly dictate (however unconsciously) that, because I was not able to see and because bumpers were needed, they must have been for MY benefit. Did the gentleman mean any ill will towards me at all? Not in the least. In fact, I am sure that he would be the first to assert that I had the right to be there at that alley just like everyone else. Yet, his beliefs about blind people came through loud and clear (though none of this was ever directly stated). When the people looked at me and smiled as I bowled, would these total strangers have done so if I did not have a visible disability? I would suspect not. In the case both of the gentleman and the fellow bowlers, no bad feelings were ever intended, nor did this lead me to have any feeling of bitterness toward them at all. However, these small but powerful instances illustrate how far we still need to go.

Confidence in ourselves finds its heart in our attitude. Once the bumpers were put in, something remarkable happened to Seth's score. It went up significantly, jumping from a mere 37 in the first game to a whopping 119 in the second. Among my buddy's frames within this glorious second game were 3 strikes --strikes that seemed like distant ideal dreams in the first game. He was proud of his accomplishments, and so was I, and I told him so with all the pride and enthusiasm that a big brother could muster. "Hey, bud, you got it from ME, you know," I joked as I put my hand on his shoulder and smiled.

Here is something that you may find quite surprising. Before reading ahead, think of whether or not you thought Seth's strikes were due to the ball moving down the lane every which way. With each of the 3 strikes that he earned, the ball went STRAIGHT toward the pins. No trajectories in which the ball ricocheted left, then, right, then left or vice versa. No deflection. The ball decisively met its target with all the precision of a top professional bowler. What was the difference here? I WAS still at the same bowling alley at the same lane. The only change was the set of bumpers put into place. But, with the bumpers' presence, Seth bowled like there was no tomorrow, like there was nothing stopping him. NO more fear of the gutter, because that fear was gone. That limiting belief now out of the way, he was able to do far better, because he believed in himself much more. The day will come when those bumpers will no longer be needed to enable him to feel secure in his ability to bowl and, just as is true with the kid who learns how to bike confidently who first started with training wheels, Seth will move on to excel without the barrier of limited beliefs to stop him. The lesson that his experience teaches us is that, sometimes, the only thing stopping any of us from reaching our most ambitious dreams is ... ourselves.

People with and without disabilities must constantly assess how they are to identify and confront negative attitudes. What happened to me as a person who is blind may just as easily have happened to people with any disability and of any age. The disability may vary as may the particular circumstances and situations, but the fundamental tenets are the same. Limited beliefs cross all disabilities and have a direct impact on the views of and about the disability community. These unseen barriers are also a factor behind limited expectations within social, educational, political, and economic contexts.

Our reaction to all of this, of course, is not to become embittered or to lead members of the general public to think that we as people with disabilities and those who love and support us must have some sort of chip on our proverbial shoulders. We need constantly to educate the public about our abilities and to strive to enable people to understand that the most basic of daily tasks and recreational activities are not something to be praised simply because we do them. Instead, we should be praised for the true quality of what we do (judged on the same expectations as others) and, in a recreational setting, our having fun should simply be looked at as our enjoying life to the same degree as those without disabilities. People should not view disability as a basis for our somehow being unluckier than the rest of the population. Gone are the old notions of disability either as a curse or a blessing. We are neither tragically deprived nor wondrously gifted simply by virtue of the disabilities we possess. To cause a revolution in the societal mindset, we as members of a united community (both with and without disabilities) must renew our commitment to the ideal of equality of opportunity in every setting. Meanwhile, we as people with disabilities will assert our right to participate fully in the life of our respective communities, NOT under the rubric of "beating the odds" but in the spirit of simply doing what others do, fulfilling and exceeding expectations as others fulfill and exceed them, living as others live, striving for our dreams in the same way that others do, and persisting to achieve our goals as all of us should.

As a society, our attitudes may be our greatest assets, or they may be the chief contributors to our worst downfall. The choice is ours.

[Note: In 2004, out of 15,000 mentor-mentee matches, Ollie was named California Big Brother of the Year.]

Thank you!
Sweetmind

 

[Eve]

ATTITUDE is the answer that s when there are too many conflict interests between audist people and Deaf rights as usual.

Finally, something we can agree upon! It's all about the ATTITUDE!

 

[Sweetmind]

ATTITUDE is the answer that s when there are too many conflict interests between audist people and Deaf rights as usual. They dont have a great feelings or full acceptance for Deaf children s natural abilities. It was never have two way streets for Deaf children all along.

If you dont mind.. No more take out the context. thank you!

 

[SB_GB_4ever]

Well this whole topic was about wether or not people like me should be able to join your culture. I belive some should and some should not. If someone is respectful of deaf culture and belives that deaf people are perfect the way they are then yes they should. And deaf people should greet and open there heart to them and help to the best of there ability. Now there is the fact that some people as in any situation will not respect your culture and belive you should change to fit there needs and wants. These people should never be able to join your culture or lifestyle. I am very respectful and i belive that being deaf is gift and my girlfriend who is deaf belives. You all have a wonderful culture and lifestyle and you need to fight to make sure that noone trys to change that. Be the best you can be in every aspect of your life and everything will turn out in the end.

 

[Passivist]

Most cultures (And it is by no means certain all deaf agree with that), can benefit and enhance their culture by inclusion. Ultimately we should examine WHAT the 'cultural' deaf person actually want, it cannot expand, it will not thrive in Isolation, although I KNOW a number of them believe this is the ONLY way, Statistics say not.

It was with the help of hearing people sign-language was developed for the deaf, or they would still be miming most things, there'd be no language to campaign for. If the deaf had excluded that involvement where would they be now ? It's been said before and again, the continuation of culture in the deaf sense, is down to the strength and faith of the people in it, not, on enforcing laws, or raising the drawbridge when things get tough.

The root issue is lack of confidence in deaf culture to survive inclusion, that's the issue, no matter how many 'excuses' it may use, that mainstream 'prevents' inclusion, or excludes it. Where is the significant 'take up' of integration via the inclusive policies so far ? To the spectator of these issues, it appears deaf, far from heading toward inclusion, are erecting deaf-only enclaves and systems instead.

You can lead a horse to water ..... etc ? Where would the rights of Black people be, if they had adopted the same attitude ? They live and work alongside, fight together with, and marry white people too, many would say that enhances things, not, destroys black aspiration, neither have black people lost any identity as a result

(I am drawing as an example in context, don't start shooting at me !).

 

[Rose Immortal]

To those of you in this thread:

What is it, if one discriminates against a hearing person simply because of how he or she was born, without even knowing the person or giving them a chance?

Is it wrong and if so, why or why not?

And, I defy everyone here to explain the events described in this thread: http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=29416

 

[MsGiglz]

I agreed with you. Deaf and hearing people should be equal.

Yeah I know my friend went to Twin city in Minnestoa and learned from deaf gangs. They hate him not get involving with deaf people or group at bowling and pushed him too hard to get along with deaf communities.

He moved here and looked changed. His signing is too fast and said Deaf is POWER! He think hearing people does not understand about deaf. I remember I once visited him for few days and he brought me to Mall of America and one deaf fellow us. And strange deaf pulled him to his side I stood lonely in bar in mall. That was stupid! He came back to me and said sorry.

I show my friend about here AD and hope he will join here!

Yeah, thats minnesota deafies way..
Thats why I dont socialize them very much after i was unwelcome to deaf club.. Once in while I do attend deaf club, but recent.. I just want to get a break from home and catch up with friends at deaf club.. some said "what are you doing here?" i was like "uh? nothing wrong to come here once in while," they said "what for".. i was like "whoa.. ok.. this place is for everyone come anytime they want to.. and doesnt mean that they MUST attend all the times" they said you never come, I said I do come once in while...

sheesh.. i have been losing interested in minnesota deaf community.. some of them can do anything to turn your life upside down..
like -- revenge... or call fire dept that one of deafies' home on fire.
or cops that deafies' home have drugs.. or abuse the kids etc..
Twin cities police department have hard time to trust deaf community after all those pranks.. of course they get fined but.. still it ruined repubiations.. what if someone call 911 and its serious emergency.. they have to come and check or take little while.. cuz unsure if its really or just prank..
And, they have been push hearies away.. or wont cooperative.. but alot hearing people in here.. wanted to learn more about deafies and cultures so they can feel welcome.. but its seems loss at words..

That's why I have been kind of pressure my man to move closer to his homeland out in east between Maryland and West Virigina..