Trying to understand

[jillio]

That's correct, I've seen it too.

Remember the time you signed "soon" I thought you were signing for the word "fag".

So does that mean that an English speaker who calls a soda pop a "cold drink" is not speaking true English? Even though in the region in which they live and communicate, it is a well understood and accept way to describe the object?

 

[Dismal Shadow]

No, ASL in English word order is not ASL, it is either SEE or PSE. Only ASL in ASL sign order, with all of the grammatical markers and qualifiers is ASL. It doesn't have anything to do with good manners. If Ispeak French in English word order, I am not speaking French. I am using French words in a distorted way and generally, they will make no sense to a a Frenchman.

Right. It seems that Nathan is using ASL sign vocabulary in an English structure, which would put the signing on the PSE or CASE continuum but not as ASL.

Are you saying I'm speaking in SEE or PSE?

 

[jillio]

Are you saying I'm speaking in SEE or PSE?

No, we are saying that you are signing in SEE or PSE, most likely PSE, as it is extremely difficult to sign in SEE and have the flow of the words match the flow of the signs because of the addition of artificial signs to the SEE system.

 

[AlleyCat]

So does that mean that an English speaker who calls a soda pop a "cold drink" is not speaking true English? Even though in the region in which they live and communicate, it is a well understood and accept way to describe the object?

I don't think that was the case. I totally understand what Cheri was saying - as to the sign for "fag" vs. "soon." I live in Minnesota where Pepsi, Coke, 7-Up, etc., is referred to as "pop." However, when I attended RIT, everyone referred to pop as "soda." It certainly didn't mean we weren't speaking true English, but adapting to a region's accent or dialect.

 

[Dismal Shadow]

No, we are saying that you are signing in SEE or PSE, most likely PSE, as it is extremely difficult to sign in SEE and have the flow of the words match the flow of the signs because of the addition of artificial signs to the SEE system.

I see, in other word I'm signing in ASL. Just because I'm signing in PSE doesn't mean I don't know ASL. I use signing to match English grammar. That's the way I'm. I don't skip words written in english sentences.

 

[Babyblue]

Well, I suppose the same way we decide who is speaking true English. I would suggest that no one speaks true English. It has evolved into what we have today, and phrasing of certain word combinations varies between regions. But if the language adheres to the basic rules and qualifications that define it as English, it is called English. Same with ASL.

How true like each regions have a certain way of speaking.. Like the drawl or slangs.

I have noticed the same with the signers. They come up with slang signs. Just like oral people come up with different ways to speak.

 

[Reba]

I see, in other word I'm signing in ASL. Just because I'm signing in PSE doesn't mean I don't know ASL. I use signing to match English grammar. That's the way I'm. I don't skip words written in english sentences.

If you're signing in English word order, then you are not signing in ASL. If you are signing to match English grammar, then you're using some form of an English sign system, not a sign language. That means you're using a form of PSE, SEE, or CASE. Those signing systems incorporate ASL signs but they are not the same as the ASL language.

It's like taking a list of English vocabulary words and throwing them together in random order, without changing the verb endings to match tense, person, or plurality, omitting capitalization and punctuation, and expecting it to look like a standard English sentence. It's still just a list of words, not a grammatically correct sentence. Each word is a valid word by itself but the string of words together is not language.

 

[shel90]

When I converse with a person who signs SEE, I have a hard time following cuz whenever I see people signing, the cortical location of my brain for ASL takes over and then SEE doesnt make sense to me so I have to work to keep my brain to the English location. It takes me some concentration and effort to decipher SEE cuz if I decipher with the ASL part, then it doesnt make sense but when I decipher using the English part, it makes more sense.

I couldnt sign SEE...I do try but because I have established two languages so when I start signing, I automatically code-switch to ASL and when I start using my oral skills, I automatically code-switch back to English.

I can understand PSE pretty well and I probably sign in PSE to accodomate someone who signs in SEE like my husband.

 

[Tousi]

When I converse with a person who signs SEE, I have a hard time following cuz whenever I see people signing, the cortical location of my brain for ASL takes over and then SEE doesnt make sense to me so I have to work to keep my brain to the English location. It takes me some concentration and effort to decipher SEE cuz if I decipher with the ASL part, then it doesnt make sense but when I decipher using the English part, it makes more sense.

I couldnt sign SEE...I do try but because I have established two languages so when I start signing, I automatically code-switch to ASL and when I start using my oral skills, I automatically code-switch back to English.

I can understand PSE pretty well and I probably sign in PSE to accodomate someone who signs in SEE like my husband.

How is it he signs in SEE and not PSE? Guess he took SEE classes, hmmmmmm...can't imagine there's many classes offered in SEE anymore these days.

 

[shel90]

How is it he signs in SEE and not PSE? Guess he took SEE classes, hmmmmmm...can't imagine there's many classes offered in SEE anymore these days.

My husband never took any sign language classes...he learned by socializing but he keeps signing in English order instead of PSE or in ASL. He signs all the "ings", "eds" and etc. I told him that there is no need and he said that was wrong. He thinks ASL is a signed version of English. I stopped arguing with him about it a long time ago. Important he signs instead of nothing cuz I cant understand him at all without him signing.

 

[jillio]

I don't think that was the case. I totally understand what Cheri was saying - as to the sign for "fag" vs. "soon." I live in Minnesota where Pepsi, Coke, 7-Up, etc., is referred to as "pop." However, when I attended RIT, everyone referred to pop as "soda." It certainly didn't mean we weren't speaking true English, but adapting to a region's accent or dialect.

By that logic, regional variations in sign is no indication the signer is not using "true ASL" either. That was my point. One is a regional variation in a sign used to represent a concept; one is a regional variation in a word to represent a content. It doesn't mean the language being used is not "true" just because of the variation.

 

[Tousi]

My husband never took any sign language classes...he learned by socializing but he keeps signing in English order instead of PSE or in ASL. He signs all the "ings", "eds" and etc. I told him that there is no need and he said that was wrong. He thinks ASL is a signed version of English. I stopped arguing with him about it a long time ago. Important he signs instead of nothing cuz I cant understand him at all without him signing.

"Can't understand him at all without him signing" *Gulping...Tousi calling Lloyds of London for a divorce-proof policy on that SEE-using guy's hands!*

 

[jillio]

I see, in other word I'm signing in ASL. Just because I'm signing in PSE doesn't mean I don't know ASL. I use signing to match English grammar. That's the way I'm. I don't skip words written in english sentences.

You still don't understand what is being said. ASL does not use English word order. Therefore, if you are signing in English word order, you are not signing in ASL, despite the fact that you may be using some ASL based signs. No, signing in PSE does not mean that you don't know ASL. I sometimes use PSE when the person I am communicating with prefers it. That doesn't mean I don't know ASL, just that in that particular instance, I am not using it.

 

[jillio]

How true like each regions have a certain way of speaking.. Like the drawl or slangs.

I have noticed the same with the signers. They come up with slang signs. Just like oral people come up with different ways to speak.

Exactly!

 

[jillio]

If you're signing in English word order, then you are not signing in ASL. If you are signing to match English grammar, then you're using some form of an English sign system, not a sign language. That means you're using a form of PSE, SEE, or CASE. Those signing systems incorporate ASL signs but they are not the same as the ASL language.

It's like taking a list of English vocabulary words and throwing them together in random order, without changing the verb endings to match tense, person, or plurality, omitting capitalization and punctuation, and expecting it to look like a standard English sentence. It's still just a list of words, not a grammatically correct sentence. Each word is a valid word by itself but the string of words together is not language.

Right. Good explanation.

 

[shel90]

"Can't understand him at all without him signing" *Gulping...Tousi calling Lloyds of London for a divorce-proof policy on that SEE-using guy's hands!*

LOL..he is very very hard to lipread cuz of his Philly accent. I have a difficult time understanding his mom as well...no matter how hard I try..it is impossible and communication is almost nonexistent with her.

When I first met my hubby, he didnt know any sign language and we communicated by writing back and forth which was new to me since I was used to being able to lipread almost anyone on an one-one-one basis.

 

[KDM]

It is not good to learn from a resource or book if you are looking for a way to communicate with the deaf person. You will just look up for context or a better sign word to communicate with the deaf person. You will have to ask the deaf person what he/she mean what he/she says because both of you are talking in different ways of sign language with ASL or SEE. Don't be afraid to ask the deaf person. Every one of us have different way to sign like dialect. Hope that help you understand what I am trying to say.

Yes thank you. Every response does help. However, I really want to learn to be fluent so that we do not misunderstand each other. I am trying very hard to understand him all the time so we do not have misunderstandings. He is an important friend to me

 

[KDM]

No, ASL in English word order is not ASL, it is either SEE or PSE. Only ASL in ASL sign order, with all of the grammatical markers and qualifiers is ASL. It doesn't have anything to do with good manners. If Ispeak French in English word order, I am not speaking French. I am using French words in a distorted way and generally, they will make no sense to a a Frenchman.

What is PSE please???? That is a new term for me

 

[Cheri]

What is PSE please???? That is a new term for me

Pidgin Signed English- another form of sign language.

 

[Angel]

I don't think that was the case. I totally understand what Cheri was saying - as to the sign for "fag" vs. "soon." I live in Minnesota where Pepsi, Coke, 7-Up, etc., is referred to as "pop." However, when I attended RIT, everyone referred to pop as "soda." It certainly didn't mean we weren't speaking true English, but adapting to a region's accent or dialect.

Correct.