The sun and the earth... on cued speech

We had something similar with Lotte. She would leave the "t" away at the end of a word. We used fingerspelling to emphasise the "t" and she got it.


My 20 year old who is HOH and we only just discoverd 2 years ago,
used to drop the ends of her words. Of course we never even
considered hearing loss as the cause. I don't even know why it
never occured to us because she had bad meningitus at 9 months
of age. I also wonder why some doctor didn't suggest she get her
hearing tested after that? Oh well, we just sat in front of her and
ennunciated very carefully and pointed out which letters or sounds
she was dropping on paper. I would even erase the letter she was
dropping to show her. But that was 19 years ago! If I knew then
what I know now!
 
We all know you love ASl. We know you don't like Cued Speech.

But there's no need for a remark like you just made.... totally uncalled for.

If loml is explaining something to fredfam1, you can just refrain from making comments on that.


It's called respect.

BTW.. you cannot learn someone to sign every word they know in 20 hours. Cued speech does have that ability!

Nor can you "learn someone" to cue every word they know in 20 hours. One only learns handshape, placement, and corresponding phonetic element. It takes much longer to become fluent, and one must constantly think about the phonetic spelling of the word they are attempting to cue rather than the acutal spelling. I daresay, in 50 hours, the average time spent in a college classroom on a quarter basis, one can learn enough ASL to actually have a conversation with a deaf person.

This "so easy to learn" is directed at what is easiest for the parents, not what is best for the deaf child. The priorities are reversed. You can't claim altruism as a motive, and then place the population you are claiming to assist at the bottom of the list.

And the simple fact of the matter is, while someone is taking the time to learn all of the handshapes, all of the placements, and all of the corresponding phonetic sounds in order to be able to cue the word "no", they can taken the same amount of time and learned several ASL phrases that will convey much more conceptual information than one word.
 
There you go again, assuming too much:
Nor can you "learn someone" to cue every word they know in 20 hours. One only learns handshape, placement, and corresponding phonetic element. It takes much longer to become fluent,
who said anything about fluent. How long does it take to become fluent in ASL?
Oeps... that's also a LOT LONGER than becoming fluent in Cued Speech.....
Sorry JT... doesn't fly!

.... and one must constantly think about the phonetic spelling of the word they are attempting to cue rather than the acutal spelling. I daresay, in 50 hours, the average time spent in a college classroom on a quarter basis, one can learn enough ASL to actually have a conversation with a deaf person.
........ not very likely. One might be able to ask a question... but the answer will probably not be understood.
I speak from experience. Mine, and others....
Sorry JT... doesn't fly!

This "so easy to learn" is directed at what is easiest for the parents, not what is best for the deaf child. The priorities are reversed. You can't claim altruism as a motive, and then place the population you are claiming to assist at the bottom of the list.
again.... wrong assumptions. How would you know about how easy a child learns Cued Speech? I thought communication was in the best interest for the child. ASL can work, Cued speech can work, Speech can work.... what's your problem?

And the simple fact of the matter is, while someone is taking the time to learn all of the handshapes, all of the placements, and all of the corresponding phonetic sounds in order to be able to cue the word "no", they can taken the same amount of time and learned several ASL phrases that will convey much more conceptual information than one word.
Well, first one learns individual signs, then more signs, then signs together and after 40 hours you learn positioning, then counting from 10 up, 100's thousands, fingerspelling....after 60 hours you learn past tense and..... etc... long road to fluent ASL
Cued speech would be a 20 hours investment to learn and memorize the handshapes and placements, and from there you have the tools to use cued speech...
Probably as long as learning fingerspelling ....
 
This is an experiment to see if manually expressed phonics
facilitates or remediates reading skills.:fingersx:
 
You know I learned and retained the most new signs after
an all deaf church potluck. I felt like a bug under a microscope
because the deaf pastor was our dear friend so after his
intro during the sermon, at potluck I was decended upon
and I had a blast! I remember learning the sign for military
as I had to explain my entire life story to everyone! What
a curious group! It was exhausting but much fun! As I was
answering questions, they would take turns correcting my
"old" signs. (It had been 20 years since my last ASL class)
Total immersion is definately the way to go! I am planning
to attend the all deaf adventist camp meeting next summer.
I can bring the kids too so it should be wonderful!
 
There you go again, assuming too much:
who said anything about fluent. How long does it take to become fluent in ASL?
Oeps... that's also a LOT LONGER than Cued Speech.....
........ not very likely. One might be able to ask a question... but the answer will probably not be understood.
I speak from experience. Mine, and others....

Your experience with Cued Speech? I thought it wasn't a system available in Norway. Regarding ASL....do you know ASL? Or do you use Norwegian sign? If you don't know ASL, you don't have any experience. And if fluency isn't the goal, then it won't do much to foster language development or literacy, now will it?
again.... wrong assumptions. How would you know about how easy a child learns Cued Speech? I thought communication was in the best interest for the child. ASL can work, Cued speech can work, Speech can work.... what's your problem?

Cued Speech was never intended for language acquisition, bgut for language developmetn through literacy. So those parents that are buying into the "can be learned in a mere 20 hours as opposed to the time taken to learn ASL, which is a different langauge, and therefore you can communicate with your deaf child in CS after just a weekend using CS and expose them to yopur native langauge" are all buying into the ease for the parent. It is one of the most often quoted selling points. "Its easy for hearing parents to learn."

Well, first one learns individual signs, then more signs, then signs together and after 40 hours you learn positioning, then counting from 10 up, 100's thousands, fingerspelling....after 60 hours you learn past tense and..... etc... long road to fluent ASL

I don't know what ASL class you attended, but obviously your instructor was not very adept. Oh, I forgot, you don't know ASL, do you?Cued speech would be a 20 hours investment to learn and memorize the handshapes and placements, and from there you have the tools to use cued speech...
Guess as long to learn fingerspelling ....

I doubt very seriously that CS will ever supplant ASL. Here is why:

Growth
A recent article in The Salt Lake Tribune, a local paper to this researcher, provided an example of ASL’s popularity and use. ASL is currently the third most commonly used language in the United States behind English and Spanish (Ravitz, 2005). In 1994, the Utah State legislature officially recognized ASL as a language. In 1998, they encouraged it to be taught in Utah public schools and allowed foreign language credits for students that take ASL classes (Ravitz). In fact, the Granite School District, in Salt Lake City, is having a hard time keeping up with demand for qualified ASL teachers (Ravitz). The Utah issues alone speak volumes of the popularity of ASL.
Growth information for Cued Speech is much more difficult to come by. According to the National Cued Speech Association, Cued Speech has grown slowly during the past three decades (Roffe, 2000). Today Cued Speech is used in most of the U.S. States and in about 20 countries. Its use is constant and solid (Roffe).
The words constant and solid indicate growth in use, but do not provide any reference to growth compared to ASL. One source does provide such information. The Gallaudet Research Institute conducts an annual survey of deaf and hard of hearing youth and children. They publish the information in an annual report, the Regional and National Summary Report of Data from the Annual Survey of Deaf and Hard of Hearing Children and Youth. Results of the annual survey data are broken into several different categories.
One category, The Primary Method of Teaching, is used to record the language used in the teaching environment of the students in the Gallaudet survey. The category is broken into five sub-groups: Speech Only, Sign and Speech, Sign Only, Cued Speech, and Other (Gallaudet, 2001). For this research, data from the 1999 and 2003 surveys were compared.
If Cued Speech is growing significantly, one would expect to see the percentage of students being taught using Cued Speech growing between the 1999 and 2003 survey. This is not the case. In fact, the percentage of students being taught in a Cued Speech environment stayed steady at .4 % (Gallaudet 2001 & 2003). During the same period, the percentage of students in the Sign Only teaching environment grew from 5.8% in 1999, to 9.5% in 2003 (Gallaudet, 2003).
The survey does not name ASL specifically as the sign language used in the sign only category, but it can be assumed that ASL makes up a majority of the category since it is the most popular sign language in the country. Based on a comparison of survey information, it does not appear that Cued Speech is about to replace ASL.
http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-layout/cuedspeech.html
 
Can't say I remember reading anything about CS replacing ASL.

As the National Cued Speech Association saying goes: Cued Speech and ASL Go Hand in Hand
 
It is easy

How can ease of learning a system, be deemed a negative, when the system can/does connect the child to their own family?
 
Lets take a humor break!

In the interest of good relations and congenial debate, I
am posting an article on learning, taken directly from my blog.
Enjoy!


THE 9 YEAR MAP READING LESSON
Published February 4, 2007 cooking , family , food , health , humor , science

You too can learn what ever you don’t want to in just nine, count em, NINE years! All it takes is resistance for the first eight, and total submission for the 9nth. It’s not effortless but as they always say, “No Pain, No Gain!”

Thus began my hubby’s personal mission to teach me to read a map. “Sweetie Pie”, he’d say as he periodically would try to corner me for my geography tutorial, just sit down and relax! “I’ve got a nice assortment of yellow fluorescent markers, some fresh maps, and a compass. “Whoopie”, said I.

Ignoring me he would begin in a monotonous tone, “Now let’s begin by finding where we are on the map.” He would shove the map over to me and grin hopefully. “Well, I said,” where are we?” “You do it, he said encouragingly, ”Find where we are at.” Looking at the squiggly lines, I fought down a growing sense of panic and frustration. Turning the map so North was directly in front of my forehead and all the words were right side up, I sat and stared.

“Well?” “I’m LOOKING!” “Try over in this quadrant.” “Well that’s real helpful to people who know what quadrants are! Quadrants are sections of peoples bodies, I don’t see any cadavers on this map!” “Quadrants are sections on maps .” “Well that’s helpful,” I said, “does a map have veins and arteries too?” “I don’t think you are taking this thing seriously, ” he said looking rather hurt.

Looking him straight in the eye I said, “I fail to see why I should learn something that causes me this much stress. Learning should be fun! I have a private pilots license, a degree in psychology, and a degree in art. Why in the world should I do this thing that makes my brain hurt?” He stared at me with his mouth open.

“How on this earth did you pass the test for your pilots license if you didn’t learn to read a map?” “Easy, ” I said. “First, I faked it.” Second most maps for pilots aren’t covered with a bunch of squiggly lines crossing and criss crossing over each other. Third you only have to score 70 on that test and I got a 72. Two points overkill. I didn’t have to get every map question correct and by flipping a coin on the multiple choice ones I had a 50% chance of getting it right!” And lastly they got a little gadjet called a VOR at each airport so all I have to do is dial it in and they tell me which way to go.”

He stared at me a long, long time. “Remind me, “he said,”to NEVER fly with you, it’s dangerous enough driving with you!” “Fine, ” I responded, ” But I’ve only gotten lost once and that didn’t count because I forgot to set my gyroscope every-time I landed. Besides power lines are fun to follow when your flying.” By this time he had his head resting on his maps. “Are we done? ” I asked.

“For now.” he moaned. “BUT, I’m putting this map up on the door so you can study it every time you go out.” “Sure go ahead,” I mumbled. Periodically when the map reading issue would come up I would rip the map down. He would follow me around the house with florescent markers and new maps thinking today would be the day he would make it click for me! I tolerated this reasonably well until the moon would exert its phase on my female body. Then I would turn into a horrible shrew, throwing anti orienteering tantrums worthy of any two year old. “You are MEAN! Why can’t you leave me ALONE! I have DOCUMENTATION about dyslexia! IT IS A REAL THING!” I ‘d rip down the map and he’d put it back up.

“Don’t feed me that junk,” he finally said. “I will not give up! You can fly a plane, then you CAN learn to read a map.” This went on periodically for 8 years. I felt like an old wild horse that someone was trying to break. I began to rethink my tactics. He obviously hadn’t learned what it said in the books about dyslexia. I had to show him first hand to convince him. Here was my new strategy. I would put forth a serious, concerted effort and spend whatever time it took with him, studying and trying to learn to read the map. Once he saw that something in my brain made this task impossible for me, he would give up on his own. It would make for fewer arguments anyway.

But a funny thing happened to me on the way to trying to convince him. In one year, I was reading that map. The lines no longer appeared to be just a tangled mass. I knew how to tell north, and south, east and west just from being outside and looking at the sun. I could orient myself by the stars! The man who would not give up on me glowed with pride at my accomplishment! I felt a new sense of power, of self esteem! I began to think there was nothing I couldn’t do or learn. There was no greater gift that he could have given me. Thank you Lord for my OC husband.

“Now”, he said “let me teach you how to make bread!”

“Aahhhhhhhggggggggg!”
:giggle:
 
I doubt very seriously that CS will ever supplant ASL. Here is why.........
No-one was even hinting on that!!

Wonderful seeing you stating a position that no-one has, and then showing how this is not true..
 
How can ease of learning a system, be deemed a negative, when the system can/does connect the child to their own family?

How does it connect a deaf child to a hearing family. I thought that the intent was literacy, not communication and speech.
 
No-one was even hinting on that!!

Wonderful seeing you stating a position that no-one has, and then showing how this is not true..

Then why your words, "So long fingerpelling"? The implication is that with the use of CS, fingerspelling will not longer be necessary, as so long is a collouquilism for "good-bye". So yes cloggy, you were not only hinting, you were implying. Your words.
 
bla bla bla... ....

My experience learning Norwegian Sign Language
I've stated before I do not know ASL. Quite recently actually
I learned norwegian sign. Don't use it.
If you don't know ASL, you don't have any experience.
Oh yeh... Norwegian sign language is sooo much different compared to ASL... Cannot compare the two...
JT.. grow up!


And if fluency isn't the goal, then it won't do much to foster language development or literacy, now will it?
You started about fluency, and it had nothing to do with it.
It is just as much the "goal" as it is with ASL

....

Cued Speech was never intended for language acquisition, bgut for language developmetn through literacy. So those parents that are buying into the "can be learned in a mere 20 hours as opposed to the time taken to learn ASL, which is a different langauge, and therefore you can communicate with your deaf child in CS after just a weekend using CS and expose them to yopur native langauge" are all buying into the ease for the parent. It is one of the most often quoted selling points. "Its easy for hearing parents to learn."
It really bugs you doesn't it that Cued Speech is so much easier to learn. You are right, it is not a different langauge. It is the extension of the existing language..... Isn't that great!

Well, first one learns individual signs, then more signs, then signs together and after 40 hours you learn positioning, then counting from 10 up, 100's thousands, fingerspelling....after 60 hours you learn past tense and..... etc... long road to fluent ASL

I don't know what ASL class you attended, but obviously your instructor was not very adept. Oh, I forgot, you don't know ASL, do you?
Oh, well, JT...
Since you know about it.... show me the typical setup of an ASL course....
What doe the students learn at what time...
Please, post an overview of a ASL-course.....



Cued speech would be a 20 hours investment to learn and memorize the handshapes and placements, and from there you have the tools to use cued speech...
Guess as long to learn fingerspelling ....
:bye:
 
Then why your words, "So long fingerpelling"? The implication is that with the use of CS, fingerspelling will not longer be necessary, as so long is a collouquilism for "good-bye". So yes cloggy, you were not only hinting, you were implying. Your words.

Oh JT.... :slap: you really know how to misread something!!!
You have all these assumptions allready in your head, that you cannot read anymore....

Read again..... I said
"Cued speech would be a 20 hours investment to learn and memorize the handshapes and placements, and from there you have the tools to use cued speech...
Probably as long as learning fingerspelling ...."

No apology expected.... (come on.. surprise me !!) :giggle:
 
We had something similar with Lotte. She would leave the "t" away at the end of a word. We used fingerspelling to emphasise the "t" and she got it.

Cloggy we would do likewise, use a "sign" for lack of a better term, that our daughter's speech therapist would use to stress or emphasize a work ending or sound that she was leaving off a word.
 

You are completely pitiful. Your time would be much better spent with your daughter in her tender years than posting around in circles as you seem to be so wont to do. Your arguments are so full of holes they leak. Your logic is nonexistent. Your attempt to present a cohesive argument is laughable. You consistently contradict yourself, and have been called on your complete inconsistencies any number of times. You are ridiculas.
 
Oh JT.... :slap: you really know how to misread something!!!
You have all these assumptions allready in your head, that you cannot read anymore....

Read again..... I said
"Cued speech would be a 20 hours investment to learn and memorize the handshapes and placements, and from there you have the tools to use cued speech...
Probably as long as learning fingerspelling ...."

No apology expected.... (come on.. surprise me !!) :giggle:

You got me on that one. I did misread your post. And with fingerspelling, one can represent not just the phonetic spelling of a given word, but the actually spelling as well. Therefore, two representations for the price of one!
 
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