The Origins of Homosexuality

[Reba]

This is confusing to me. It sounds like God gave laws to "His chosen people", which were the Jews, since there were no Christians at the time. Then.... Jesus came, thus Christianity was born. Since "Jesus didn't retract God's Law. He fulfilled it." (your words), how is it possible that only SOME of the laws for the Jews are applicable to the Christians? Were the laws reiterated again in the New Testament to show which laws are applicable for the Christians?

The laws that pertained to sacrifices, feast days, and temple rituals were fulfilled by Jesus Christ on the cross.

It wasn't just that Jesus came to the earth but it was His blood sacrifice on the cross that fulfilled the need of a spotless pure sacrifice for all mankind's sin since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Reba]

Yep, it's pretty obvious that knowledge is lacking when one only believes what one tells them the Bible says unquestioningly.

Which is why I constantly and prayerfully research and study, and not depend on what any one person says.

 

[Reba]

So God says that it is perfectly okay to kill those who don't follow the same religion. Nice.

Nope.

That is not what God said, and it's not what I posted.

God protected tribal Israel from outside invaders and influences. Would you have been more satisfied if God had instead allowed them to destroy Israel? Would that be "nice?"

 

[Banjo]

Nope.

That is not what God said, and it's not what I posted.

God protected tribal Israel from outside invaders and influences. Would you have been more satisfied if God had instead allowed them to destroy Israel? Would that be "nice?"

So the fact that God ordered the destruction of 60 cities is perfectly fine because they did not worship the same God as yours?

Gotcha.

 

[Reba]

I notice that only my "Christian" friends think that way. Scary.

I'm a Christian (and I hope also a friend), and I don't think non-Christians should be killed for following other (or no) religions. I don't even personally know other Christians who have expressed that desire.

We pray that non-believers will someday each accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord. We pray that they will come to a change of heart. The only way that is possible is for them to make that decision while alive. Only God knows the heart of each person to know whether or not that person will eventually accept Jesus.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm a Christian (and I hope also a friend), and I don't think non-Christians should be killed for following other (or no) religions. I don't even personally know other Christians who have expressed that desire.

We pray that non-believers will someday each accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord. We pray that they will come to a change of heart. The only way that is possible is for them to make that decision while alive. Only God knows the heart of each person to know whether or not that person will eventually accept Jesus.

Exactly. That is why I tell my Christian friends to quit witnessing to me, already.

 

[Reba]

So the fact that God ordered the destruction of 60 cities is perfectly fine because they did not worship the same God as yours?

Gotcha.

No, you don't "gotcha."

It almost seems that you don't even read my responses because I keep repeating myself.

You make it sound like it was no big deal for God to have to take severe measures in order to protect His people. You make it seem like God had no regard for the deaths of people who were under the influence of Satan and sin.

It's not true. It was not God's will that mankind should fall into sin and live under the influence and control of Satan.

Out of the population of the world during OT times, the tribes of Israel needed protection or they would have been either wiped out or totally assimilated by the ungodly nations. Would that be "perfectly fine" with you?

 

[Banjo]

I do read what you post, it's like listening to a broken record. It's funny that you would refer to them as "His people".

He created all of us. You are not just "His people".

 

[Reba]

Exactly. That is why I tell my Christian friends to quit witnessing to me, already.

It is true that it is the Christian's duty to make a complete, clear presentation of the Gospel to an unbeliever, and answer any questions from the unbeliever. After that, the Holy Spirit takes over with convicting the heart. Finally, it's up to the individual to make the decision.

Haranguing the same person over and again, serves no good purpose. Praying continually for unsaved friends has no limits, though.

 

[Daredevel7]

The laws that pertained to sacrifices, feast days, and temple rituals were fulfilled by Jesus Christ on the cross.

It wasn't just that Jesus came to the earth but it was His blood sacrifice on the cross that fulfilled the need of a spotless pure sacrifice for all mankind's sin since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.

At first, I had no idea how this relates to my question. But I realized that your definition of "fulfillment" is different from mine. When I think of fulfillment of a law, I think of "in compliance". As in.. I drove under the speed limit, therefore, I "fulfilled" that law, but that doesn't mean the law doesn't exist anymore. However, I think you were saying that because Jesus fulfilled (as in rendered them obsolete) the laws by sacrificing himself on the cross. Is that what you were saying?

 

[Reba]

I do read what you post, it's like listening to a broken record. It's funny that you would refer to them as "His people".

God Himself called the Jews his chosen people, not me. That's not something I made up.

He created all of us. You are not just "His people".

No, I never was one of God's chosen people. I was a Gentile, not a Jew, before I became a Christian.

God's invitation to salvation and His family is for all people.

 

[Reba]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

 

[TWA]

Cool story

 

[Reba]

At first, I had no idea how this relates to my question. But I realized that your definition of "fulfillment" is different from mine. When I think of fulfillment of a law, I think of "in compliance". As in.. I drove under the speed limit, therefore, I "fulfilled" that law, but that doesn't mean the law doesn't exist anymore. However, I think you were saying that because Jesus fulfilled (as in rendered them obsolete) the laws by sacrificing himself on the cross. Is that what you were saying?

This use of fulfill is more the concept of to complete.

It's more in the sense of fulfilling (satisfying) an obligation.

Suppose you owe on a huge debt. Every month you're making a payment on that debt but you're only paying on the interest, and the principal debt continues on. Then, one day, someone pays off the debt totally, principal and interest, in full. That debt has been fulfilled. You never have to make another payment. The debt wasn't retracted, made obsolete, or cancelled--it was paid in full.

Is that a more clear description than my previous post?

 

[Sunshine]

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

You realise quotes from the Bible can never be use definitive proof anything...right?

 

[Daredevel7]

This use of fulfill is more the concept of to complete.

It's more in the sense of fulfilling (satisfying) an obligation.

Suppose you owe on a huge debt. Every month you're making a payment on that debt but you're only paying on the interest, and the principal debt continues on. Then, one day, someone pays off the debt totally, principal and interest, in full. That debt has been fulfilled. You never have to make another payment. The debt wasn't retracted, made obsolete, or cancelled--it was paid in full.

Is that a more clear description than my previous post?

Yes, definitely. Thank you. Now, that doesn't really answer one of my original questions which was: how do we know which laws were "fulfilled" and which were not? i.e. which laws from OT were for Christians? Or do Christians only follow the laws of NT? You said "The laws that pertained to sacrifices, feast days, and temple rituals were fulfilled by Jesus Christ on the cross." Does this mean the laws in OT that do NOT pertain to sacrifices, feast days, and temple rituals are still applicable to Christians?

 

[Reba]

You realise quotes from the Bible can never be use definitive proof anything...right?

Wrong.

That was part of my reply to #548.

 

[sallylou]

I'm reading The Power of Myth by Joseph Campell with Bill Moyers now. He talked about how the 3 great Western religions all claim to be chosen my God and to have God. He believes the problem is that religious institutions don't know how to apply their religious ideas to contemporary life, especially how to include individuals not in a local group (chosen people) but within the whole planet. There's a disconnect between beliefs and reality (as we experience it in the contemporary world). That's why dealing with homosexuality is such a big problem for traditional institutions. Not just religion but all social constructs, including law.

It's a heavy read--makes me think about how I think (sometimes makes my head hurt). It's a good book with many good ideas in it.

 

[Banjo]

Maybe I should point out the fact that it is the religious right movement who is on a crusade to control people's lifestyles by outlawing them.

 

[Journey]

You realise quotes from the Bible can never be use definitive proof anything...right?

Wrong.
That was part of my reply to #548.

I would have answered "right" to Sunny's question. Religion is not based on proof but, instead, faith. Faith is a belief in something that is not proven or has yet to be proven, the conviction of things unseen. This is the exact reason there is an ongoing debate or split between science and religion.