The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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jillio said:
Yeah, this has gotten absurd. :lol: All because a white person took offense to Deaf oppression being compared to oppression of the Blacks. I am the one that made the comparison, and I'm as much Black as I am Jewish!:lol:
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So funny. In the 1960s, my family was not 'white'.
 
You realize when you fight against another minority group that your enforcing the dominate parigram, right? The oppressor lets the little people do the dirty work.
 
TheOracle said:
Nope, and I'm not black, so I don't try to take someone else's cause and make it mine to be dramatic.

If I have an issue - say, my issues with Hispanics in Denver and the struggles with race - then I make it about that issue, not something that Hollywood has glamorized for a couple of bucks. I don't say "this is just as bad as..." Instead, I say, "This is bad BECAUSE __________."

I believe in liberty. That applies to everyone - deaf, straight, gay, immigrant, whatever. So if I am giving a lecture on race issues for a class, I may point out feelings of fear and ethnocentric-ism, but I keep immigration separate from MLK. I also don't invoke the Holocaust when I talk about Israel or Judaism and I don't say that people avoid deaf guys because they think deaf are gang-banging, gun-toting oversexed men...that's a different kind of ignorance.
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how do you think people empathize? by finding correlations in their experiences.
 
AlleyCat said:
Meaning just because one race, sex, gender, disability encountered oppression and/or a multitude of things, doesn't make it worse or better than of someone/thing else.
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Discrimination is bad all around, AlleyCat, would you really liken the Holocaust to segregation? I wouldn't. The root causes may be similar, but the end results are different. Like I said, apples and oranges. Both fruits, both are stuck in a fruit salad, but an apple orchard is not the same as an orange grove.
 
What I want to know is how a teacher becomes certified without a basic understanding of sociology. It was required curriculum for me.
 
TheOracle said:
Nope, and I'm not black, so I don't try to take someone else's cause and make it mine to be dramatic.

If I have an issue - say, my issues with Hispanics in Denver and the struggles with race - then I make it about that issue, not something that Hollywood has glamorized for a couple of bucks. I don't say "this is just as bad as..." Instead, I say, "This is bad BECAUSE __________."

I believe in liberty. That applies to everyone - deaf, straight, gay, immigrant, whatever. So if I am giving a lecture on race issues for a class, I may point out feelings of fear and ethnocentric-ism, but I keep immigration separate from MLK. I also don't invoke the Holocaust when I talk about Israel or Judaism and I don't say that people avoid deaf guys because they think deaf are gang-banging, gun-toting oversexed men...that's a different kind of ignorance.
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That is exactly what you are doing by saying that Deaf rights are not comparable to civil rights as fought for by the Black population. Maybe you need to back off and let a Black person decide that.
 
DeafCaroline said:
how do you think people empathize? by finding correlations in their experiences.
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Sure. But I said the two things were not the same. They aren't the same. That's my point. This is why you need to debate on merits and not what you think gets the best reaction.

Like I said, Caroline, it's about liberty. Instead of you insisting that I don't know my history, why don't you consider my philosophy instead? That each civil rights movement needs to stand on its own? That Holocaust is not the same as Armenian Genocide, or that anti-immigration policies today is not the same as Japanese internment camps in WWII??

Fear, hatred, racism, ignorance - all of those things contribute to what ails us. But we need to examine why people have those feelings instead of just making casual correlations and leaving it at that. Had Jillio backed up her statement instead of insinuating that I'm stupid, I would've been fine with it. She did not.
 
TheOracle said:
Discrimination is bad all around, AlleyCat, would you really liken the Holocaust to segregation? I wouldn't. The root causes may be similar, but the end results are different. Like I said, apples and oranges. Both fruits, both are stuck in a fruit salad, but an apple orchard is not the same as an orange grove.
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Weren't the Jews segregated before they got sent to those camps?

I also remember my history teacher telling my class at VSDB that if the Nazi were to find us in this class room, we would get sent to the camps. She asked us why is this? We all guessed it was because our teacher is Jewish. She said no. It is because we are deaf. Eugenics wasn't just applied to Jews or Blacks.
 
sallylou said:
What I want to know is how a teacher becomes certified without a basic understanding of sociology. It was required curriculum for me.
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Did you not have to take a debate class or English class?
 
sallylou said:
You realize when you fight against another minority group that your enforcing the dominate parigram, right? The oppressor lets the little people do the dirty work.
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Evidently, that concept is part of the missing sociology.
 
TheOracle said:
Discrimination is bad all around, AlleyCat, would you really liken the Holocaust to segregation? I wouldn't. The root causes may be similar, but the end results are different. Like I said, apples and oranges. Both fruits, both are stuck in a fruit salad, but an apple orchard is not the same as an orange grove.
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The difference between you and me, however, is that I don't pretend to know what the Holocaust was like or oppression the Jews felt. Same as you don't know what Deaf oppression is like (you've said so, you are hearing for the most part), yet you purport to think you can compare the two without knowing both sides.
 
You're a history teacher, you know that we have to provide examples to make an argument. We borrow from history, stories, other parallel experiences.

we are not calling ourselves the Deaf Holocaust nor the Lynched Deaf but we compare examples of discrimination and the effect it has on us. of course. i find it sad that you think the Deaf cannot stand on their own two feet nor have their own identity and assume they are trying to claim other people's pain as their own.

Why are you so anti-deaf? Why are you so unwilling to acknowledge that the Deaf, like the Jews, like the Blacks, have suffered from discrimination too?

Did someone tell you you shouldn't feel so bad about your experiences as a Deaf person because others had it worse? It's akin to a mother telling her child to eat all the food on her plate because there are kids starving in Ethiopia.
 
deafskeptic said:
Weren't the Jews segregated before they got sent to those camps?

I also remember my history teacher telling my class at VSDB that if the Nazi were to find us in this class room, we would get sent to the camps. She asked us why is this? We all guessed it was because our teacher is Jewish. She said no. It is because we are deaf. Eugenics wasn't just applied to Jews or Blacks.
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I'm fully aware of all the other groups that suffered in the Holocaust, deafskeptic. But segregation in the US is not the same as the Holocaust in Europe. Just because Jews in the US were excluded from country clubs in the South doesn't mean they had the same experiences as blacks in the south. The Dreyfuss affair is not the same as modern-day antisemitism, either.

My point was that 1) Jillio does not get to speak for all Blacks and Jews (most certainly not this Jew!) and 2) that instead of saying, "This is just like..." you need to explain what 'this' is.

Also, I would've been swooped up with you, deafskeptic, cause I have epilepsy, so I think that if you and I had been born in, say, 1920 in America, we may have gone to the same school. I mean - institution. :(
 
DeafCaroline said:
You're a history teacher, you know that we have to provide examples to make an argument. We borrow from history, stories, other parallel experiences.

we are not calling ourselves the Deaf Holocaust nor the Lynched Deaf but we compare examples of discrimination and the effect it has on us. of course. i find it sad that you think the Deaf cannot stand on their own two feet nor have their own identity and assume they are trying to claim other people's pain as their own.

Why are you so anti-deaf? Why are you so unwilling to acknowledge that the Deaf, like the Jews, like the Blacks, have suffered from discrimination too?

Did someone tell you you shouldn't feel so bad about your experiences as a Deaf person because others had it worse?
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Exactly.
 
DeafCaroline said:
You're a history teacher, you know that we have to provide examples to make an argument. We borrow from history, stories, other parallel experiences.

we are not calling ourselves the Deaf Holocaust nor the Lynched Deaf but we compare examples of discrimination and the effect it has on us. of course. i find it sad that you think the Deaf cannot stand on their own two feet nor have their own identity and assume they are trying to claim other people's pain as their own.

Why are you so anti-deaf? Why are you so unwilling to acknowledge that the Deaf, like the Jews, like the Blacks, have suffered from discrimination too?

Did someone tell you you shouldn't feel so bad about your experiences as a Deaf person because others had it worse?
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Why do you hate Jews so much? Oh my god! You must be arguing against me because I am Jewish! wtf!!

:roll:
 
AlleyCat said:
The difference between you and me, however, is that I don't pretend to know what the Holocaust was like or oppression the Jews felt. Same as you don't know what Deaf oppression is like (you've said so, you are hearing for the most part), yet you purport to think you can compare the two without knowing both sides.
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Well said. Which is why more than one of us has recommended some learning in the field of deaf history.
 
Talk about lynch mob. I ask people to debate on merits and I get attacked. :)

Nowhere did I deny deaf discrimination. Nowhere.
 
jillio said:
Well said. Which is why more than one of us has recommended some learning in the field of deaf history.
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Actually, I said you can't compare the two. I actually said that drawing parallels or trying to understand root causes is fine, but your assertion that passing for white and passing for hearing was the same thing and it's not.
 
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