The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

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AlleyCat said:
The difference between you and me, however, is that I don't pretend to know what the Holocaust was like or oppression the Jews felt. Same as you don't know what Deaf oppression is like (you've said so, you are hearing for the most part), yet you purport to think you can compare the two without knowing both sides.
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Well said. Which is why several of us have recommended she study some deaf history.
 
You're not being attacked. Your argument has holes in it. Don't avoid the issue by playing the victim.
 
TheOracle said:
I'm fully aware of all the other groups that suffered in the Holocaust, deafskeptic. But segregation in the US is not the same as the Holocaust in Europe. Just because Jews in the US were excluded from country clubs in the South doesn't mean they had the same experiences as blacks in the south. The Dreyfuss affair is not the same as modern-day antisemitism, either.

My point was that 1) Jillio does not get to speak for all Blacks and Jews (most certainly not this Jew!) and 2) that instead of saying, "This is just like..." you need to explain what 'this' is.

Also, I would've been swooped up with you, deafskeptic, cause I have epilepsy, so I think that if you and I had been born in, say, 1920 in America, we may have gone to the same school. I mean - institution. :(
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No one ever said Deaf experinces were exactly like what it was like for Native Americans, Black or Jews.

You would do well to look up ABG and why he invented the telephone and you would do welll to look up eugenics and AGB. The Milan conference is another important part of Deaf history and is tied closely to the educational system for the Deaf.
 
DeafCaroline said:
Did you just play the Jew card? Did you really just do that? that's cheap.
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I was showing how you played the Deaf card.

Just because I'm hoh and you're Deaf and I disagree with you does not mean I'm 'against' deaf people. You threw out a total BS claim there because you couldn't argue merits.
 
TheOracle said:
Actually, I said you can't compare the two. I actually said that drawing parallels or trying to understand root causes is fine, but your assertion that passing for white and passing for hearing was the same thing and it's not.
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I disagree. I can compare the two, as I have knowledge of both African American history and Deaf history.

Yes, it is the same thing. Both are pretending to be what one is not to escape an oppressive society.
 
TheOracle said:
I was showing how you played the Deaf card.

Just because I'm hoh and you're Deaf and I disagree with you does not mean I'm 'against' deaf people. You threw out a total BS claim there because you couldn't argue merits.
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No, my dear. You did.
 
deafskeptic said:
No one ever said Deaf experinces were exactly like what it was like for Native Americans, Black or Jews.

You would do well to look up ABG and why he invented the telephone and you would do welll to look up eugenics and AGB. The milan conference is another important part of Deaf history and is tied closely to the educational system for the Deaf.
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You would do well to entertain yourself in a debate or philosophy class, deafskeptic. I really like the things you have to say on AD and I enjoy you a ton, but if you fail to see my points in the logic here, that's nothing I can help. Further insulting me by suggesting I don't know my history (and teaching special ed for two years, that's ironic, given the subject here) is just mean and totally below what you normally post.

Sorry you took what I said wrong. Deaf HAVE been discriminated against and I know this. All I said was that Jillio's assertion that someone trying to 'pass' as hearing (and as Grendel pointed out, he wasn't trying to pass for anything...) is not the same as light blacks trying to 'pass' for white.

That's what I said.
 
TheOracle said:
You would do well to entertain yourself in a debate or philosophy class, deafskeptic. I really like the things you have to say on AD and I enjoy you a ton, but if you fail to see my points in the logic here, that's nothing I can help. Further insulting me by suggesting I don't know my history (and teaching special ed for two years, that's ironic, given the subject here) is just mean and totally below what you normally post.

Sorry you took what I said wrong. Deaf HAVE been discriminated against and I know this. All I said was that Jillio's assertion that someone trying to 'pass' as hearing (and as Grendel pointed out, he wasn't trying to pass for anything...) is not the same as light blacks trying to 'pass' for white.

That's what I said.
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So why are the others who have Jewish or Indian descent able to see the correlation? I'm not just talking about Jillio.
 
"In the confusion we stay with each other, happy to be together, speaking without uttering a single word."

Nice signature.
 
DeafCaroline said:
No, my dear. You did.
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You asked me why I was 'against' deaf. Why do you think I'm 'against' deaf?

Because I said that Grendel was being unfairly attacked? Is that why? Because I pointed out that hearing people consider university language a matter of intelligence and they do it to most hearing people as well?

Because what? Because people in the Deaf community can be snotty to late signers?

Language is personal. EVERYONE discriminates. Back to the topic here: you can be fluent in oral English and be deaf. I agree with Grendel on that point. Maybe you disagree with us, but that doesn't make me or her 'against' Deaf people. Fuck that...Grendel is an AMAZING mom (and an intelligent one, too) and I really resent the attack on her because she's hearing and doesn't scream that everything in the med community is audist.
 
TheOracle said:
You would do well to entertain yourself in a debate or philosophy class, deafskeptic. I really like the things you have to say on AD and I enjoy you a ton, but if you fail to see my points in the logic here, that's nothing I can help. Further insulting me by suggesting I don't know my history (and teaching special ed for two years, that's ironic, given the subject here) is just mean and totally below what you normally post.

Sorry you took what I said wrong. Deaf HAVE been discriminated against and I know this. All I said was that Jillio's assertion that someone trying to 'pass' as hearing (and as Grendel pointed out, he wasn't trying to pass for anything...) is not the same as light blacks trying to 'pass' for white.

That's what I said.
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No one is failing to see your points. We are simply saying your points are wrong based on a lack of knowlege and critical thinking on your part.
 
deafskeptic said:
So why are the others who have Jewish or Indian descent able to see the correlation? I'm not just talking about Jillio.
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I'm not sure what you mean by that q.

Rephrase, please?

I asked her to not compare fear of death to fear of discrimination in 2011 America.

If you want to look at WHY people are fucking idiots in regards to diversity, that's a convo I'm happy to entertain...I think you'd know me well enough now to understand that I'm critical of semantics but I am very, very loving and liberal and open minded and most certainly do not tolerate any kind of discrimination. I wouldn't have joined AD if I thought I were 'better' or Deaf didn't have a cause...
 
TheOracle said:
You would do well to entertain yourself in a debate or philosophy class, deafskeptic. I really like the things you have to say on AD and I enjoy you a ton, but if you fail to see my points in the logic here, that's nothing I can help. Further insulting me by suggesting I don't know my history (and teaching special ed for two years, that's ironic, given the subject here) is just mean and totally below what you normally post.

Sorry you took what I said wrong. Deaf HAVE been discriminated against and I know this. All I said was that Jillio's assertion that someone trying to 'pass' as hearing (and as Grendel pointed out, he wasn't trying to pass for anything...) is not the same as light blacks trying to 'pass' for white.

That's what I said.
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I'm afraid it's quite clear you don't know Deaf history. I guess you're here to teach the benighted deaf how to see things the "correct" way. I'm afraid you're turning into an example of what we're talking about.

Special ed is not helpful for Deaf kids for the following reason: it ignores their communication needs.

I believe I know of a TOD who majored in special Ed then Deaf ed and I'm sure she can enlighten you on this.
 
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TheOracle said:
You asked me why I was 'against' deaf. Why do you think I'm 'against' deaf?

Because I said that Grendel was being unfairly attacked? Is that why? Because I pointed out that hearing people consider university language a matter of intelligence and they do it to most hearing people as well?

Because what? Because people in the Deaf community can be snotty to late signers?

Language is personal. EVERYONE discriminates. Back to the topic here: you can be fluent in oral English and be deaf. I agree with Grendel on that point. Maybe you disagree with us, but that doesn't make me or her 'against' Deaf people. Fuck that...Grendel is an AMAZING mom (and an intelligent one, too) and I really resent the attack on her because she's hearing and doesn't scream that everything in the med community is audist.
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I absolutely agree GrendelQ is an exceptional mother and I'm sure if she was my mother, I would have had a far happier childhood.

The thing is this: yes, we can be fluent in our thoughts, in our words, with our hands. But when we speak, and I know I am not speaking for everyone, when we speak, we see where we are not fluent. We see it in people's faces, we see that they noticed even when they are smiling and encouraging. We see it when a hearing person turns to the other and said, "I didn't understand what she said."

We see it when young kids ask, "why you talk funny?"

I appreciate that GrendelQ sees the fluency in us, but like I said before, she's exceptional. She doesn't see us the way most hearing people do.
 
TheOracle said:
I'm not sure what you mean by that q.

Rephrase, please?

I asked her to not compare fear of death to fear of discrimination in 2011 America.

If you want to look at WHY people are fucking idiots in regards to diversity, that's a convo I'm happy to entertain...I think you'd know me well enough now to understand that I'm critical of semantics but I am very, very loving and liberal and open minded and most certainly do not tolerate any kind of discrimination. I wouldn't have joined AD if I thought I were 'better' or Deaf didn't have a cause...
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And I asked you to study a little deaf history before proclaiming what the Deaf have been afraid of in an historical context. And since both of those histories affect me on a very personal level, I will compare them if I choose.
 
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