The Death Penalty

[jillio]

oh of course... but Jillio chose to view the statement in some other way that suits her. So it is not "twisted" to one's view but New Testament was rewritten to the point where it's ambiguous - it's open to one's interpretation. Jesus Christ supported death penalty BUT...... he also said to forgive and not to judge. So... nobody's right. It's pretty much up to you to judge somebody's fate.

If he murdered your child, you can either kill him or forgive him. It's up to you! Neither of these choices makes one any less of a man. Neither is sinful. The only sin is that man murdering your child.

Nope, I viewed it in the very language in which it was delivered. I made the statement, "as a group". You brought the issue of individual perspective into it.

And, once again, we are discussing civil law, not religious law. Stick to the topic.

 

[jillio]

She said....."as a group". Meaning 'generally speaking'. You chose to view the statement in some other way that suits you. To view it in a way to twist it for your need.

You are absolutely correct, cowpuppy. Thank goodness someone involved in this discussion possesses critical thinking skills, lol.

 

[jillio]

The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. Read Catholic teaching, personal stories ahttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.aspnd a prayer to end the death penalty.

The Death Penalty and the Catholic Church

The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.


It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof.

Clearer Position on the Death Penalty

Like I said, "Catholics as a group".

 

[KarissaMann05]

The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. Read Catholic teaching, personal stories ahttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.aspnd a prayer to end the death penalty.

The Death Penalty and the Catholic Church

The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.


It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof.

Clearer Position on the Death Penalty

Like I said, "Catholics as a group".

Finally, I glad you mention that not all believers support that idea.
I don't. Support. That. Idea.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

it can be:
1. 1 innocent wrongfully executed per year consecutively
2. if proven or shown beyond reasonable doubt by statistics and extensive studies that it causes crimes (only crimes that are punishable by death penalty) to increase
3. uuuummmm..... can't think of anything else

but I think you know what I'm saying. For now - I've seen statistics, arguments, and studies that death penalty does decrease murder rates and it is proven effective as bargaining chip when negotiating with criminals. More importantly, the error rate of executing innocent is IMPROBABLE.

If you can prove to me otherwise with substantial statistics/studies/etc. and convincing arguments (beside some religious belief and so-called ethics), then I'm on your side without question, without hesitation, without pause. That's the deal

:roll:

 

[Cheri]

In this case, because it was twisted.

I don't see it was twisted. A group means a handful of people, there are handful of Christians and Catholics who support the death penalty and there are group of handful Catholics and Christians who strongly value life, no ifs, no buts.

 

[jillio]

Finally, I glad you mention that not all believers support that idea.
I don't. Support. That. Idea.

YW!

 

[jillio]

I don't see it was twisted. A group means a handful of people, there are handful of Christians and Catholics who support the death penalty and there are group of handful Catholics and Christians who strongly value life, no ifs, no buts.

No, a group means the individuals making up a specific population, and the values represented by that group collectively. A handful would be those few individuals that hold beliefs different from the group as a whole. The Catholic Church is the defining entity that consitutes the belief of the group as a whole. That is what defines the belief as a group. The few that disagree do not influence the values and norms of the group as a whole. They are simply differing views within the group.

So, in effect, it was twisted. You cannot use one dissenting opinion to establish the position of a group as a whole. I referred to group. Jiro referred to individual, and attempted to apply an individual belief to a group. That is definately twisting. In other words, simply because Shapiro supports the death penalty as a Catholic does not mean that Catholics as a group support the death penalty. Please refer to my post regarding the Catholic stance on the death penalty.

 

[Chase]

Quite a handful of Catholics and Christians support death penalty. ... there are many branches of Christians/Catholics who interpret it to their own way to be against or for death penalty.

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

 

[Cheri]

Not everyone thinks like you Jillio. If he stated "All" Catholics that would mean every individuals in that group supports the death penalty as a whole, which he did not stated that. And not every Catholics follows the Pope John Paul II's opinion either. Everyone has their own freedom of thoughts.

 

[jillio]

Not everyone thinks like you Jillio. If he stated "All" Catholics that would mean every individuals in that group supports the death penalty as a whole, which he did not stated that. And not every Catholics follows the Pope John Paul II's opinion either. Everyone has their own freedom of thoughts.

No, Cheri, it is simply that you do not uderstand the concept of group as a sociological reference. Her referred to Judge Scalia's affiliation with the Catholic Church, would indicate his membership in a group known as "Catholics". He then cited Judge Scalia's support for the death penalty as an individual, which implies, by his reference to the judge's membership in the group, that it has an impact on the judge's personal belief system. An individual can claim membership in many different groups. For instance, Judge Saclia is not just a Catholic, he is also a member of a group divided by gender (men), another group known as "parent", and most importantly, a group decided by profession "lawyer". One group can have more of an impact on an idividual's personal stance depending upon the topic. Quite obviously, them important influence in the case of Judge Scalia is not his membership in a group known as "Catholic", but in the group defined as "lawyer". The group influence of lawyer created more of an impact on his development of his personal value system in regard to the death penalty than did his membership in the group known as "Catholic." That is exactly why his individual opinion regarding the death penalty does not reflect the group value adopted by Catholics as a whole.

And that is why it was irrelevent when Jiro brought it up, and why I pointed out the irrelevence based on Catholic group values as opposed to individual group member values.

 

[jillio]

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

Exactly.

 

[Cheri]

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

Then tell me why do they have a Catholic Church and a Christian Church separate? We only share the common ground of faith in Jesus. Catholics have masses, The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot, some worship of the crucifix, they don't eat meats on Fridays, at the Christians church we don't do none of that. So please explain...

 

[jillio]

Then tell me why do they have a Catholic Church and a Christian Church separate? We only share the common ground of faith in Jesus. Catholics have masses, The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot, some worship of the crucifix, they don't eat meats on Fridays, at the Christians church we don't do none of that. So please explain...

Actually, the only time that Catholics don't eat meat on Friday is during Lent.

Why do we have a Baptist Church and a Prebyterian Church? Different doctrines. What makes one a Christian is a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Christ=Christian. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a Christian. Christian is the larger defining group, denomination defines the sub-group.

And, at your particular Christian church you don't do any of that. It doesn't mean that no Christians do that just because your church doesn't.

 

[Cheri]

Jillio, I'm asking Chase since he brought it up. I rather to hear directly from him.

 

[Reba]

Actually, the only time that Catholics don't eat meat on Friday is during Lent.

That's now but it wasn't that way in the past.

I remember Fish Stick Fridays in the public school lunchroom.

 

[jillio]

That's now but it wasn't that way in the past.

I remember Fish Stick Fridays in the public school lunchroom.

Oh, yeah! I was raised Catholic, and had a Jewish mother. I was the only kid in my Catholic School that had Lox and Bagels for lunch on Friday! LOL.

 

[Chase]

Cheri, I don't know how to explain it better than Jillio did. Maybe Webster's Dictionary can:

Christian churches include: Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, Latter-day Saint, Congregational, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Christianity, Coptic, Pentecostal, Evangelical Reformed, Church of England, Unitarian, Melkite, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, United Brethren, Society of Friends, Quakers.

And that's not a complete list. On another note, every religion has different practices, and they all can be made to seem strange, unholy, unhealthy, and downright screwy to others. Let's not go there.

However, it remains that implying Catholics are not Christians is a misconception, a twisting of facts.

 

[jillio]

Jillio, I'm asking Chase since he brought it up. I rather to hear directly from him.

Okay. You got your answer.

BTW, that would be "kissing the Pope's ring" not his foot. LOL.

 

[jillio]

What´s an abbrevation word for YW? I am trying to figure out... Do you mean "You Welcome"... Right?

Yes!