The CI for children issue (My POV)

jillio said:
Your word choices are making your ideas uninterpretable. We have yet to discover what idea it is that you are attempting to portray. That is why we are asking for clarification.
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Important things for deaf children

1. Learning language
2. Learning to read and write fluently.

Ta da!
 
Yes, we have agreement.

The question is what if we drill a deal kid with oral skills? What if we force deaf kids to perform exclusively in oral language? Does the kid operate at a disadvantage? Will the kid be burned out and lose the love learning? Does the kid feel like he's being heard? It's a real possibility that the kid will burn out or not feel heard. It's a matter of balance.

What will happen at adolescence? Teenagers control communication entirely! Parents must communicate the teen's way, whatever that is. Control freaks need not apply to work with teens.
 
faire_jour said:
Important things for deaf children

1. Learning language
2. Learning to read and write fluently.

Ta da!
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Very, very narrow description of literacy. So you are now saying that critical thinking skills are not the most important skill a child can be given? You agreed with sallylou's post that said it was.

But, you take me right back to the original question. You are still not answering it. What tools need to be provided to allow a child to develop linguistic skill and the ability to read and write?
 
sallylou said:
Yes, we have agreement.

The question is what if we drill a deal kid with oral skills? What if we force deaf kids to perform exclusively in oral language? Does the kid operate at a disadvantage? Will the kid be burned out and lose the love learning? Does the kid feel like he's being heard? It's a real possibility that the kid will burn out or not feel heard. It's a matter of balance.

What will happen at adolescence? Teenagers control communication entirely! Parents must communicate the teen's way, whatever that is. Control freaks need not apply to work with teens.
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I agree that drilling is no way to learn any language, spoken or not, deaf or hearing.

Communication is the key. Learning and thinking skills are developed through language. If a child doesn't understand, or can not express themselves, they need something to change.
 
Sorry I havent' come back to this dicsussion in a while. I had my CI surgery last Wednesday. All is going well.

I think that the parents of a child that cannot hear well enough to communicate by sound (deaf, profoundly HOH) will think about what can be done to give their child the best chance to grow up and become independent. Of course one of the first things they'll look into is "Is it possible for my child to hear?" Is there a surgery or device that can give them this sense that they do not have?

They will not think about "deaf culture". They will not think about sign language. These things aren't the first priority. The first thing they'll look into is if there is a way to make what doesn't work in their child work.

If there is no procedure to give their child the ability to use the sense that is not working for them. Then, and only then, will they have to face the fact that their child is deaf and most likely always will be. This is when they'll look into how their child will be able to communicate without sound (Such as ASL, lip reading, oral, etc...). When they discover that their hearing cannot be corrected is the time to look into deaf culture, schools and the best course to give their child a chance at a happy and independent life "As a deaf person".

So my point is ASL and deaf culture are only needed when there is no way for their child to be able to hear.

My brother is in a wheel chair but we didn't put a ramp on our house until we knew there was nothing that can be done to give him the ability to walk. Then we looked into what will give him the best chance of independence.

But I do agree that it would be great if everyone, and I do mean everyone, knew some basic ASL. I'd love that for a number of reasons. Obviously it would be much easier for use who use ASL as a primary language. It's a beautiful and expressive language. It can be learned before oral communication which is great for brain development and many other reasons. But the truth is most people have no reason to think about it unless they are exposed to deaf people or deaf culture.

Ron
 
Glad that your surgery went well and things are going good for you.

However, I have to disagree that Deaf Culture and ASL are only needed when there is no way for a child to hear. A deaf child does not have any means available to hear at the same level as a hearing child. The very best results in only functionally HOH. That means the child is missing out on valuable information every moment following their birth that they are not exposed to visual cues.

Culture and a sense of belonging is a valuable asset to any child or adult. Look around at all the angry, hateful, hurtful people that have not been given that gift.

Many parents do think of culture and language as the primary solution. They see their child's life experience as something to be shared as a family, and to be celebrated. Not as something that needs intervention so the child will more closely fit to their ethnocentric picture.
 
RonJaxon said:
Sorry I havent' come back to this dicsussion in a while. I had my CI surgery last Wednesday. All is going well.
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Glad your procedure went well. Good luck.

I think that the parents of a child that cannot hear well enough to communicate by sound (deaf, profoundly HOH) will think about what can be done to give their child the best chance to grow up and become independent. Of course one of the first things they'll look into is "Is it possible for my child to hear?" Is there a surgery or device that can give them this sense that they do not have?

They will not think about "deaf culture". They will not think about sign language. These things aren't the first priority. The first thing they'll look into is if there is a way to make what doesn't work in their child work.

If there is no procedure to give their child the ability to use the sense that is not working for them. Then, and only then, will they have to face the fact that their child is deaf and most likely always will be. This is when they'll look into how their child will be able to communicate without sound (Such as ASL, lip reading, oral, etc...). When they discover that their hearing cannot be corrected is the time to look into deaf culture, schools and the best course to give their child a change at a happy and independent life "As a deaf person".
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Being the hearing parent of a deaf-born child, I have to say I am the polar opposite of this description. The moment they told me she'd failed her first hearing test at 3 days old, "Oh my god... FIX IT" wasn't even in my mind. My first thought was "How will I talk to my baby?" and I hit the web looking for ASL resources and support. I purchased 2 books the day we came home from the hospital... an ASL text and a book on Deaf culture. THEN I started learning about amplification. I did a LOT of research and asked 100s of questions. My daughter was aided a few days short of 4 months old and that's when I tackled the topic of deaf education. Now, at almost 3, we've discovered further loss and are upgrading her HAs. We are planning to make the necessary changes (new jobs, moving) so that she can attend WSD when she's a little older. We are exposing her to the Deaf community and learning about Deaf culture so we can support her and be part of her "life as a Deaf person".

I never saw ASL as a second option or settling. I NEVER considered not using it in our home. I am only sorry it took me this long to learn it.

So my point is ASL and deaf culture are only needed when there is no way for their child to be able to hear.
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I absolutely disagree. ASL is necessary for EVERY child with a hearing loss, regardless of degree. At the end of the day, when the HAs, processors and whatnot come off, they are deaf/HH. They MUST be able to effectively communicate 24/7, amplified or not, regardless of how well their amplification of choice works for them. Even with perfect speech, they should know how to read ASL so that they have access to communication when they are unaided. If nothing else, it's a matter of safety. I think this is one of the biggest issues I have with some parents relying on CIs to 'fix' broken ears. Sure, little Bobby hears just fine with his CI, but that's gonna do a fat lot of good when he's in the middle of the pool. NOT teaching a deaf/HH child ASL is doing the child a HUGE disservice.

As for Deaf culture, why shouldn't it be taught, especially to deaf/HH kids? Why not to EVERY child? Maybe, just maybe, attitudes toward the d/Deaf would change if people were better educated. We have Black History month... Hispanic Heritage month... a bazillion other cultures getting 'special attention'. I say it's about time for the Deaf to get their turn.
 
children grow up

Sorry They will not think about "deaf culture". They will not think about sign language. These things aren't the first priority. The first thing they'll look into is if there is a way to make what doesn't work in their child work.So my point is ASL and deaf culture are only needed when there is no way for their child to be able to hear. If there is no procedure to give their child the ability to use the sense that is not working for them. Then, and only then, will they have to face the fact that their child is deaf and most likely always will be. This is when they'll look into how their child will be able to communicate without sound (Such as ASL, lip reading, oral, etc...). cannot be corrected is the time to look into deaf culture, schools and the best course to give their child a chance at a happy and independent life "As a deaf person".
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Children grow up and pick their own communication choice

Im avt success story that cant lipread and HATES being oral

Often resent then parents for the choices they made

My brother is in a wheel chair but we didn't put a ramp on our house until we knew there was nothing that can be done to give him the ability to walk. Then we looked into what will give him the best chance of independence.
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Even if the kid can walk they can chose use a wheelchair. I use a chair daly. (i have cerebral palsy)

I can remeber one of dads talk in the cell(my bedroom was in the gagare so guests dont know i was there) people dont look at signers or wheely for jobs cos they are to bigger hassle. I dont talk to him now
 
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RonJaxon said:
Sorry I havent' come back to this dicsussion in a while. I had my CI surgery last Wednesday. All is going well.

I think that the parents of a child that cannot hear well enough to communicate by sound (deaf, profoundly HOH) will think about what can be done to give their child the best chance to grow up and become independent. Of course one of the first things they'll look into is "Is it possible for my child to hear?" Is there a surgery or device that can give them this sense that they do not have?

They will not think about "deaf culture". They will not think about sign language. These things aren't the first priority. The first thing they'll look into is if there is a way to make what doesn't work in their child work.

If there is no procedure to give their child the ability to use the sense that is not working for them. Then, and only then, will they have to face the fact that their child is deaf and most likely always will be. This is when they'll look into how their child will be able to communicate without sound (Such as ASL, lip reading, oral, etc...). When they discover that their hearing cannot be corrected is the time to look into deaf culture, schools and the best course to give their child a chance at a happy and independent life "As a deaf person".

So my point is ASL and deaf culture are only needed when there is no way for their child to be able to hear.

My brother is in a wheel chair but we didn't put a ramp on our house until we knew there was nothing that can be done to give him the ability to walk. Then we looked into what will give him the best chance of independence.

But I do agree that it would be great if everyone, and I do mean everyone, knew some basic ASL. I'd love that for a number of reasons. Obviously it would be much easier for use who use ASL as a primary language. It's a beautiful and expressive language. It can be learned before oral communication which is great for brain development and many other reasons. But the truth is most people have no reason to think about it unless they are exposed to deaf people or deaf culture.

Ron
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I think this is the way many hearing parents feel, but this was not our reaction.

We were already doing "baby signing" with Miss Kat when her loss was discovered, at 18 months. We knew that this was a way she could communicate easily, so we just kicked it into "high gear". We sought out Deaf adults, asked them what their familes did, and what the wished they had done. We got the same answer, again and again, "I wish they had signed with me from the start."

So we decided to continue with ASL, and ignore the professionals who told us that she would never talk because of sign (turned out she couldn't learn spoken language with her aids, so imagine how SCREWED we would have been without ASL!) and do what was right for her.
 
faire jour.....that's exactly what I've been saying...... I do think many parents who chose oral only are still subconsciously grieving the loss of a "healthy normal" kid.
However, I have to disagree that Deaf Culture and ASL are only needed when there is no way for a child to hear. A deaf child does not have any means available to hear at the same level as a hearing child. The very best results in only functionally HOH. That means the child is missing out on valuable information every moment following their birth that they are not exposed to visual cues.
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AMEN! As a hoh kid who was raised oral only (and is an aural learner to BOOT!)
having oral speech as the only tool in the toolbox is like assuming that if you're a great driver with optium conditions, you'll be a good driver under any conditions. Its like....say you were really good at math, but bad in English. You wouldn't be edcuatd by exclusively focusing on the defiect in English would you?
Also, with ASL dhh kids can function both WITH AND WITHOUT hearing aids/CIs!
They will also be *faint* BILINGAL. I find it amusing that the same people who are "OH if my child uses ASL or speechreading they'll use it as a crutch!" would jump for their kids to be bilingal in French or another spoken language.
Not to mention, ron that most wheelchair users are PART TIME users. A wheelchair does NOT provide you with a "crutch" ....it provides you with FREEDOM. Too tired to walk a long distance? Can't keep up with walking? USE A WHEELCHAIR!
 
deafdyke said:
faire jour.....that's exactly what I've been saying...... I do think many parents who chose oral only are still subconsciously grieving the loss of a "healthy normal" kid.
AMEN! As a hoh kid who was raised oral only (and is an aural learner to BOOT!)
having oral speech as the only tool in the toolbox is like assuming that if you're a great driver with optium conditions, you'll be a good driver under any conditions. Its like....say you were really good at math, but bad in English. You wouldn't be edcuatd by exclusively focusing on the defiect in English would you?
Also, with ASL dhh kids can function both WITH AND WITHOUT hearing aids/CIs!
They will also be *faint* BILINGAL. I find it amusing that the same people who are "OH if my child uses ASL or speechreading they'll use it as a crutch!" would jump for their kids to be bilingal in French or another spoken language.
Not to mention, ron that most wheelchair users are PART TIME users. A wheelchair does NOT provide you with a "crutch" ....it provides you with FREEDOM. Too tired to walk a long distance? Can't keep up with walking? USE A WHEELCHAIR!
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I agree with your sentiment, dd. It is unfortunate indeed that the parents' problems with adjustment regarding their child's diagnosis usually ends up creating more hardship in the child's environment than the disability itself does. Failing to deal with their own issues, and resolve them, has lifelong negative effects on their kids.
 
I KNOW jillo!!!!! I get stuff like " Oh you'll understand when you have kids!" from parents whose kids are only hh or who are having a hard time dealing with the fact that their wittle Smashlie isn't some designer assessory.
Honestly...........then again those parents are the same ones who would be all " boo hoo hoo! My child isn't some Suburban Blah Kid. They're GAY! They're whatever!"
 
WeeBeastie said:
Glad your procedure went well. Good luck.



Being the hearing parent of a deaf-born child, I have to say I am the polar opposite of this description. The moment they told me she'd failed her first hearing test at 3 days old, "Oh my god... FIX IT" wasn't even in my mind. My first thought was "How will I talk to my baby?" and I hit the web looking for ASL resources and support. I purchased 2 books the day we came home from the hospital... an ASL text and a book on Deaf culture. THEN I started learning about amplification. I did a LOT of research and asked 100s of questions. My daughter was aided a few days short of 4 months old and that's when I tackled the topic of deaf education. Now, at almost 3, we've discovered further loss and are upgrading her HAs. We are planning to make the necessary changes (new jobs, moving) so that she can attend WSD when she's a little older. We are exposing her to the Deaf community and learning about Deaf culture so we can support her and be part of her "life as a Deaf person".

I never saw ASL as a second option or settling. I NEVER considered not using it in our home. I am only sorry it took me this long to learn it.



I absolutely disagree. ASL is necessary for EVERY child with a hearing loss, regardless of degree. At the end of the day, when the HAs, processors and whatnot come off, they are deaf/HH. They MUST be able to effectively communicate 24/7, amplified or not, regardless of how well their amplification of choice works for them. Even with perfect speech, they should know how to read ASL so that they have access to communication when they are unaided. If nothing else, it's a matter of safety. I think this is one of the biggest issues I have with some parents relying on CIs to 'fix' broken ears. Sure, little Bobby hears just fine with his CI, but that's gonna do a fat lot of good when he's in the middle of the pool. NOT teaching a deaf/HH child ASL is doing the child a HUGE disservice.

As for Deaf culture, why shouldn't it be taught, especially to deaf/HH kids? Why not to EVERY child? Maybe, just maybe, attitudes toward the d/Deaf would change if people were better educated. We have Black History month... Hispanic Heritage month... a bazillion other cultures getting 'special attention'. I say it's about time for the Deaf to get their turn.
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First of all I'm so glad that your daughter is doing well and that she has you (Parents) that are doing everything they can for her. She's very lucky.

I certainly don't think all kids who are born deaf or HOH should get a CI or any similar device. I'm just fed up with the debate where people put down parents who look into all the options and decide to take that route. IF the "Device" doesn't work well enough for them to communicate with audio alone then they should certainly fill in that gap with ASL, lip reading and what ever they can. I don't agree with most arguments such as waiting till the child is old enough to decide because if they do decide to get it later and it is helpful to them. They'll likely wish they had it earlier in life when it was more helpful (When they learned to communicate, school, etc...).

If a child is born with a missing leg for example they'll likely look into getting that child a prosthetic about the age where kids begin to walk. If a device or procedure will give the child the ability to hear it's best to get it at the time when it's crucial for them to be able to hear (learned communication, brain development, etc...). I'm not in any way suggesting that a child has to hear in order to learn to communicate or have good brain development. I'm simply saying that if it is possible for them to gain this sense then it's best to get it when it's most beneficial.
 
RonJaxon said:
First of all I'm so glad that your daughter is doing well and that she has you (Parents) that are doing everything they can for her. She's very lucky.

I certainly don't think all kids who are born deaf or HOH should get a CI or any similar device. I'm just fed up with the debate where people put down parents who look into all the options and decide to take that route. IF the "Device" doesn't work well enough for them to communicate with audio alone then they should certainly fill in that gap with ASL, lip reading and what ever they can. I don't agree with most arguments such as waiting till the child is old enough to decide because if they do decide to get it later and it is helpful to them. They'll likely wish they had it earlier in life when it was more helpful (When they learned to communicate, school, etc...).

If a child is born with a missing leg for example they'll likely look into getting that child a prosthetic about the age where kids begin to walk. If a device or procedure will give the child the ability to hear it's best to get it at the time when it's crucial for them to be able to hear (learned communication, brain development, etc...). I'm not in any way suggesting that a child has to hear in order to learn to communicate or have good brain development. I'm simply saying that if it is possible for them to gain this sense then it's best to get it when it's most beneficial.
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Problem with that comparison is that most children are not even diagnosed until they are already delayed linguistically. To implant a child at the time they start processing language would mean that they would have to be implanted at birth.
 
jillio said:
Problem with that comparison is that most children are not even diagnosed until they are already delayed linguistically. To implant a child at the time they start processing language would mean that they would have to be implanted at birth.
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Actually, aren't most children now Id'ed at birth?
 
faire_jour said:
Actually, aren't most children now Id'ed at birth?
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Yes they are but do they recieve implants right there? That's Jillio's point.

The OP said sign language should be used as a last resort if nothing else works. That is such a wrong wrong point of view and I know that you told him basically the same thing.

That kind of view (to the OP) is why many deaf children end up with poor literacy skills.
 
shel90 said:
Yes they are but do they recieve implants right there? That's Jillio's point.

The OP said sign language should be used as a last resort if nothing else works. That is such a wrong wrong point of view and I know that you told him basically the same thing.

That kind of view (to the OP) is why many deaf children end up with poor literacy skills.
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I agree that ASL should be provided to all kids with a hearing loss. That way, no matter what, they are getting language.

There are many kids getting CI's as early as 6 months old. Those kids often don't ever have a measurable delay.
 
shel90 said:
Yes they are but do they recieve implants right there? That's Jillio's point.

The OP said sign language should be used as a last resort if nothing else works. That is such a wrong wrong point of view and I know that you told him basically the same thing.

That kind of view (to the OP) is why many deaf children end up with poor literacy skills.
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yes, like me. Mom and my audiologist had the same thought process. They say, "well, she can learn sign language anytime, but she need to learn to speak RIGHT NOW" so mom put off sign language for both of her girls. Now I don't mind learning to speak at a young age, but lack of visual communications tend to backlash. I was doing more "Pointing" and gestures (sp?) than I was speaking. So was my hearing family when trying to make something clear to me. they would point at something and say "cup" I would point and grunt when I wanted a cup. Those pointing and gestures should have been more... it should have been sign languages.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
yes, like me. Mom and my audiologist had the same thought process. They say, "well, she can learn sign language anytime, but she need to learn to speak RIGHT NOW" so mom put off sign language for both of her girls. Now I don't mind learning to speak at a young age, but lack of visual communications tend to backlash. I was doing more "Pointing" and gestures (sp?) than I was speaking. So was my hearing family when trying to make something clear to me. they would point at something and say "cup" I would point and grunt when I wanted a cup. Those pointing and gestures should have been more... it should have been sign languages.
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"They" are so f%$#(*cking wrong about deaf kids learning sign language at any time. When a child gets older without a strong first lagnuage, their ASL never become on par as those deaf children who have had it since birth because their cognitivie process has become impaired due to not having stimulation in their early years. Then, on top of being delayed in ASL (having language deficits), they never develop literacy skills and are basically f**cked for life. Stupid hearing people who think that way and ruin so many deaf childrren's lives. It just makes me so angry.
 
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