Start with spoken language or ASL?

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Jiro said:
No. It's not that Jillio won. It's you who couldn't prove it. Your defense and logic have so many holes that I felt bad for you. The only proof you have is your own experience and a few other friends you know. Sadly... you could not tell me with a higher degree of certainty that your approach for general deaf population in school would produce more success than this approach - "ASL first then Spoken English"


I wonder... is it because you choose to IGNORE Jillio over Shel just because Jillio is a hearing person? Since Shel is deaf, she knows it all.... even though both Jillio and Shel said exactly same thing. :hmm:
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What am I trying to prove? Prove that oralism can work? Yes. Prove that oralism can work for most deaf people, of course not. I like to question things, not prove things. I never said my approach would produce more success, yes I have SAID what my approach would be, but I would NEVER force it on others.

I find that comment about ignoring Jillio because she is hearing really... hurtful and atrocious. Am I even ignoring Jillio? I respond to Jillio even more than Shel. I'm saying that Jillio's comments are making me disillusioned about questioning things in this thread.
 
Daredevel7 said:
What am I trying to prove? Prove that oralism can work? Yes. Prove that oralism can work for most deaf people, of course not. I like to question things, not prove things. I never said my approach would produce more success, yes I have SAID what my approach would be, but I would NEVER force it on others.

I find that comment about ignoring Jillio because she is hearing really... hurtful and atrocious. Am I even ignoring Jillio? I respond to Jillio even more than Shel. I'm saying that Jillio's comments are making me disillusioned about questioning things in this thread.
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You are free to question anything you like. Just remember that, once the question has been asked, you are likely to get an answer that you didn't anticipate. Such is the nature of learning.
 
Daredevel7 said:
What am I trying to prove? Prove that oralism can work? Yes. Prove that oralism can work for most deaf people, of course not. I like to question things, not prove things. I never said my approach would produce more success, yes I have SAID what my approach would be, but I would NEVER force it on others.
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didn't you read my previous post? I said you (or other) is ardently advocating that oralism should be taught FIRST.... then ASL thus... treating ASL as a secondary language. And that is what i thought as erroneous and illogical. I, as a deaf person, would NEVER EVER use my own personal experience onto my future child if he/she will be born deaf. Even though I turned out to be OK - it was very difficult and does not guarantee a high yield of success. I do not have confidence in that approach. That's why I find this thread to be very educating and critically important for future parents. It is obvious that ASL and Deaf School with BiBi program are the best approach, following Oralism/English as secondary language. I believe this would produce a much better yield of success than my success.

Daredevel7 said:
I find that comment about ignoring Jillio because she is hearing really... hurtful and atrocious. Am I even ignoring Jillio? I respond to Jillio even more than Shel. I'm saying that Jillio's comments are making me disillusioned about questioning things in this thread.
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Are you sure it's Jillio disillusioning you? Not yourself? Yes you respond more to Jillio than Shel because you continue to not accept her words and she has to repeat that same words in many different ways. If you go back to page 1... the message is still same as now. always has been.
 
loml said:
Fluency in ASL of instructional and support staff varied, with 47% of the programs reporting that no more than half of the instructional staff were fluent in ASL and 68% of the programs reporting that no more than half of the support staff were fluent. Only 21% of the 19 programs reported having a formal BiBi curriculum with annual goals and suggested materials and procedures for teachers.
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Yes loml, this adds another dimension to whats being discussed. I asked a similar question before but didnt get a satisfactory answer. What if you choose ASL and can not cater the right environment afterwards. Same applies to oral, what if you go that direction but end up with wrong therapists and methods.

It seems to me all the discussion about which language is better first a bit theoric because it assumes no matter which way you choose , you will always reach the best kind of providers in your area.

So I understand why determining the better way of educating kids is important. Once its determined, it can serve a purpose of better logistical planning for the future. But my question still remains , "if parents should also consider which language training/therapy can be provided best in their geographical area?"

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Tis like peeling an onion, layer after layer.........

Hermes said:
But my question still remains , "if parents should also consider which language training/therapy can be provided best in their geographical area?" -
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Hermes - I believe that availability of services whether they be theraputic and/or early intervention, educational and/or consulting etc. are very much defined and intertwined by geographics and politics created by the diversity of human beings.
 
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lending itself to.....

supply and demand, biases, empires and polarizations, enemies and friends etc.

I also believe that the majority of parents with children, hearing or deaf, try their utmost to do their best to be the "right kind of parent'. We are all a product of our enviroment.
 
Jiro said:
didn't you read my previous post? I said you (or other) is ardently advocating that oralism should be taught FIRST.... then ASL thus... treating ASL as a secondary language. And that is what i thought as erroneous and illogical. I, as a deaf person, would NEVER EVER use my own personal experience onto my future child if he/she will be born deaf. Even though I turned out to be OK - it was very difficult and does not guarantee a high yield of success. I do not have confidence in that approach. That's why I find this thread to be very educating and critically important for future parents. It is obvious that ASL and Deaf School with BiBi program are the best approach, following Oralism/English as secondary language. I believe this would produce a much better yield of success than my success.


Are you sure it's Jillio disillusioning you? Not yourself? Yes you respond more to Jillio than Shel because you continue to not accept her words and she has to repeat that same words in many different ways. If you go back to page 1... the message is still same as now. always has been.
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Thank you. I have been consistent in my message. People just keep trying to get around it.
 
Hermes said:
Yes loml, this adds another dimension to whats being discussed. I asked a similar question before but didnt get a satisfactory answer. What if you choose ASL and can not cater the right environment afterwards. Same applies to oral, what if you go that direction but end up with wrong therapists and methods.

It seems to me all the discussion about which language is better first a bit theoric because it assumes no matter which way you choose , you will always reach the best kind of providers in your area.

So I understand why determining the better way of educating kids is important. Once its determined, it can serve a purpose of better logistical planning for the future. But my question still remains , "if parents should also consider which language training/therapy can be provided best in their geographical area?"

-
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In my case, I didn't. I moved to another geographical area that provided the support services that would provide the most benefit for my son. However, I realise that this is not always a viable option for all parents. So IMO, we need to increase the availablity of services in all areas. However, when you are talking about one deaf child in perhaps a small rural school district, this can be a difficult situation.
 
IslandGal said:
Well, for your information, a friend of mine who is deaf and comes from a deaf family has PERFECT literacy skills!
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I don't doubt that at all, Island Gal. Despite the claim that the poster knows deaf of deaf without good literacy skills, the information that has been compiled over the last century shows that deaf of deaf have an academic advantage of deaf of hearing. Why? No delays in language acquisition.
 
Jiro said:
didn't you read my previous post? I said you (or other) is ardently advocating that oralism should be taught FIRST.... then ASL thus... treating ASL as a secondary language.
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There is a difference between advocating and exploring that option. I explored the possibility of trying out oralism first, not the attempt to ESTABLISH oralism before doing ASL.


I do not have confidence in that approach. That's why I find this thread to be very educating and critically important for future parents.
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Why do you think I started this thread? Education for parents.

Are you sure it's Jillio disillusioning you? Not yourself? Yes you respond more to Jillio than Shel because you continue to not accept her words and she has to repeat that same words in many different ways. If you go back to page 1... the message is still same as now. always has been.
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I find it so interesting that you want me to simply "accept Jillio's words". Whats the point of questioning then?
 
Daredevel7 said:
There is a difference between advocating and exploring that option. I explored the possibility of trying out oralism first, not the attempt to ESTABLISH oralism before doing ASL.




Why do you think I started this thread? Education for parents.



I find it so interesting that you want me to simply "accept Jillio's words". Whats the point of questioning then?
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At last you understand the AD philosophy!
 
Jiro said:
not for speaking. That's a small part of the equation. The bigger part of the equation is listening... and that's where we fail the most. If you have a bad hearing, Lip-Reading is ineffective most of time.. as you said - teacher moving around, not facing directly at you, group setting, etc.
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Where did I mention group settings??
 
loml said:
Hermes - I believe that availability of services whether they be theraputic and/or early intervention, educational and/or consulting etc. are very much defined and intertwined by geographics and politics creating by the diversity of human beings.
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Yes they are created by the diversity of human beings, and they also create the diversity among human. I noticed something, its my own observation. There are people, both got assistance from top notch ASL instructors and speech therapists , and it seems like they are doing better than people who got average or below the average help. What I understand from this is, if people that are helping you are really good in their field, you outperform other kids who are lacking this kind of help (if you have the potential of course).

As long as there is this diversity, how do you think "which language should be chosen as kids first language", would apply to the real life?

P.s: I quote from loml, but its a general question.

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Liza said:
I have seen hearing people having horrible literacy skills. *shrug*
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My coming in here at this juncture gives you an idea how far behind this thread I am, lol.

Allow me to add, just because I am older: Those hearing people, and I am not referring to any of them on this board, are NOT far and few in between! There's millions of them! :lol:
 
imdeafsowhat said:
You say that home school is not effective?

Perhaps the teacher should learn something from the student in order to master.

You are the only one who goes against me, yet you refuse to admit that you are my rival.
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In a home school, teacher and student are not the same.:roll:

The others don't go against you because they see the futility in attempting to discuss anything with you from a logical standpoint. I believe I will adopt their philosophy.
 
Tousi said:
My coming in here at this juncture gives you an idea how far behind this thread I am, lol.

Allow me to add, just because I am older: Those hearing people, and I am not referring to any of them on this board, are NOT far and few in between! There's millions of them! :lol:
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Quite true, Tousi, quite true.
 
Hermes said:
As long as there is this diversity, how do you think "which language should be chosen as kids first language", would apply to the real life?
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The original post was a little more specific than simply choosing a language. I'll post it again here (for those who are like me, "I have to move my mouse alllll the way over there to click to go back, GOSH!"):

"Would they try to teach him/her spoken language first, and if it is too difficult, then try to teach ASL to gain vocabulary? Or would you rather spare the child the difficulty of learning spoken language and go straight to teaching ASL? Assuming parents are both hearing, and willing to do whatever it takes to communicate with their child."

Obviously, there's so much diversity. I thought it would be better to try to examine a more specific case.
 
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