Start with spoken language or ASL?

[Bottesini]

Since majority of hearing people are already stayed out in great part of this thread, there is only Jillio who made the most contribution as a hearing person . But then she brought some good information too..

I believe you do not mean this thread but saying hearing people should stay out in the decision making process in real life. You live together with those hearing people, they are in government, they are at the school boards, some of them are parents of those deaf kids, some of them are specialists etc...

Do you see a way of keeping them really out of this in practice? But then this could be another thread , I do not know if it was discussed in the past. If not maybe somebody can start it. If it was discussed perhaps person who knows the thread can provide a link. I would be interested in reading that.

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Of course I mean real life.

 

[jillio]

Since majority of hearing people are already stayed out in great part of this thread, there is only Jillio who made the most contribution as a hearing person . But then she brought some good information too..

I believe you do not mean this thread but saying hearing people should stay out in the decision making process in real life. You live together with those hearing people, they are in government, they are at the school boards, some of them are parents of those deaf kids, some of them are specialists etc...

Do you see a way of keeping them really out of this in practice? But then this could be another thread , I do not know if it was discussed in the past. If not maybe somebody can start it. If it was discussed perhaps person who knows the thread can provide a link. I would be interested in reading that.

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I can only relate from my perspective, but there is nothing wrong with the hearing having input, a long as we do whatever we can to insure that they have access to the information that will allow them to step out of their own comfort zone and take the perspective of deaf education from the perspective of the deaf. However, in the past, it has been far more than input, it has been dictated, and worse yet, it has been dictated from an ethnocentric hearing perspective.

 

[Bottesini]

I can only relate from my perspective, but there is nothing wrong with the hearing having input, a long as we do whatever we can to insure that they have access to the information that will allow them to step out of their own comfort zone and take the perspective of deaf education from the perspective of the deaf. However, in the past, it has been far more than input, it has been dictated, and worse yet, it has been dictated from an ethnocentric hearing perspective.

That is what I believe there is trouble to escape and it really needs to be deaf for deaf at the highest levels. (the bold part of Jillio's statement)

 

[jillio]

That is what I believe there is trouble to escape and it really needs to be deaf for deaf at the highest levels. (the bold part of Jillio's statement)

Can't disagree with you on that one, Bott.

 

[Hermes]

Shel and Jillio, so are you saying, because ASL is easily dismissed in todays society and educational system, first the importance of it should be made well understood. And once its established, a chance of learning English as their native language (and being raised oral) can be given to some deaf kids based on their individual circumstances?

As I understand you, you do not want to put oral first in todays terms, because you believe it causes ASL's importance not to be understood.

Did I understand you correctly?

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[jillio]

Shel and Jillio, so are you saying, because ASL is easily dismissed in todays society and educational system, first the importance of it should be made well understood. And once its established, a chance of learning English (and being raised oral) can be given to some deaf kids based on their individual circumstances?

As I understand you, you do not want to put oral first in todays terms, because you believe it causes ASL's importance not to be understood.

Did I understand you correct?

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Well, I certainly believe that the importance of ASL is to easily dismissed in today's society. But the reason that I do not agree with putting oral first is not based on society's view of ASL, but simply because oral only does not provide the deaf child with full access to language and the world around them and ASL does.

 

[Bottesini]

Shel and Jillio, so are you saying, because ASL is easily dismissed in todays society and educational system, first the importance of it should be made well understood. And once its established, a chance of learning English (and being raised oral) can be given to some deaf kids based on their individual circumstances?

As I understand you, you do not want to put oral first in todays terms, because you believe it causes ASL's importance not to be understood.

Did I understand you correct?

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Of course you are not correct. ASL gives a base of language and knowledge. The brain develops better if it has language. Oral is harder to get if deaf. I did not talk until age 5. It has nothing to do with not understanding the importance of ASL

 

[Hermes]

Of course you are not correct. ASL gives a base of language and knowledge. The brain develops better if it has language. Oral is harder to get if deaf. I did not talk until age 5. It has nothing to do with not understanding the importance of ASL

What you say is the importance of ASL we are talking about, so if majority of people dont understand it , your point will go lost , right? I would like to think things said in this thread has something to do with making people understand it better. How you expect any change if nobody understands it (not only here in AD but outside in real life either)

Well, I certainly believe that the importance of ASL is to easily dismissed in today's society. But the reason that I do not agree with putting oral first is not based on society's view of ASL, but simply because oral only does not provide the deaf child with full access to language and the world around them and ASL does.

Now if majority understands the importance of ASL and if it really gives kids a better chance then it would become the preferred method right? But once this is established if there are some kids who can benefit from oral approach better (since not all kids and their situation is same) they also can be given a chance to go that direction.

Or are you suggesting that ASL should be the native language of all deaf kids regardless..?

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[rockdrummer]

I happen to have the full text version of this article, not just the abstract. We have already discussed extensively the reason that an abstract cannot be used to support anything.

However, if anyone is interested in having the full text version, rather than just an abstract that in no way reveals the true and complete findings of this study, you all know how to contact me.

I disagree. Support can be gained from an abstract. The details are in the full text. If you want access to the full text you need not do it on Jillios terms. Here is a link. Help yourself. It's free. Survey of Residential and Day Schools for Deaf Students in the United States That Identify Themselves as Bilingual-Bicultural Programs -- LaSasso and Lollis 8 (1): 79 -- The Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education I'm not going to send you a fee schedule for me providing this either. I hope that folks can learn from it.

I would be very weary of someone that continues to make claims that impact the direction anyone would take with their children education especially if those claims re not backed up. Personally I think it's unethical and irresponsible for a professional to do that without stating they are only opinions. If you don't back them up then they are your opinion. And stating over and over that you posted the research which can't be found doesn't mean you posted it. And when you don't even provide a title when asked it smacks of a hidden agenda. IMO

 

[shel90]

What you say is the importance of ASL we are talking about, so if majority of people dont understand it , your point will go lost , right? I would like to think things said in this thread has something to do with making people understand it better. How you expect any change if nobody understands it (not only here in AD but outside in real life too)



Now if majority understands the importance of ASL and if it really gives kids a better chance then it would become the preferred method right? But once this is established if there are some kids who can benefit from oral approach better (since not all kids and their situation is same) they also can be given a chance to go that direction.

Or are you suggesting that ASL should be the native language of all deaf kids regardless..?

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The reason for this is that ASL give deaf children full access to language while spoken English may or may not. Would rather not take those risks with language development delays or deficients making establishing literacy skills difficult for the deaf children therefore diminishing the chances for them to achieve literacy to their fullest potential.

 

[Bottesini]

What you say is the importance of ASL we are talking about, so if majority of people dont understand it , your point will go lost , right? I would like to think things said in this thread has something to do with making people understand it better. How you expect any change if nobody understands it (not only here in AD but outside in real life either)



Now if majority understands the importance of ASL and if it really gives kids a better chance then it would become the preferred method right? But once this is established if there are some kids who can benefit from oral approach better (since not all kids and their situation is same) they also can be given a chance to go that direction.

Or are you suggesting that ASL should be the native language of all deaf kids regardless..?

-

Of course you are not correct. ASL gives a base of language and knowledge. The brain develops better if it has language. Oral is harder to get if deaf. I did not talk until age 5. It has nothing to do with not understanding the importance of ASL

My point made previously, which you question, is right here, underlined.

It is not ambiguous in the least.

It is a concrete and literal statement. I mean exactly what I say. There is no reason for you not to understand me except willfully!

 

[jillio]

What you say is the importance of ASL we are talking about, so if majority of people dont understand it , your point will go lost , right? I would like to think things said in this thread has something to do with making people understand it better. How you expect any change if nobody understands it (not only here in AD but outside in real life either)



Now if majority understands the importance of ASL and if it really gives kids a better chance then it would become the preferred method right? But once this is established if there are some kids who can benefit from oral approach better (since not all kids and their situation is same) they also can be given a chance to go that direction.

Or are you suggesting that ASL should be the native language of all deaf kids regardless..?

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Well, first, they must understand the importance of language to the development of cognitive process. Then we can discuss with them, why, for the deaf child, ASL addresses those needs better than an oral only method.

 

[jillio]

Of course you are not correct. ASL gives a base of language and knowledge. The brain develops better if it has language. Oral is harder to get if deaf. I did not talk until age 5. It has nothing to do with not understanding the importance of ASL

My point made previously, which you question, is right here, underlined.

It is not ambiguous in the least.

It is a concrete and literal statement. I mean exactly what I say. There is no reason for you not to understand me except willfully!

Your point is correct, and is the whole foundation of the argument for ASL.

 

[jillio]

I disagree. Support can be gained from an abstract. The details are in the full text. If you want access to the full text you need not do it on Jillios terms. Here is a link. Help yourself. It's free. Survey of Residential and Day Schools for Deaf Students in the United States That Identify Themselves as Bilingual-Bicultural Programs -- LaSasso and Lollis 8 (1): 79 -- The Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education I'm not going to send you a fee schedule for me providing this either. I hope that folks can learn from it.

I would be very weary of someone that continues to make claims that impact the direction anyone would take with their children education especially if those claims re not backed up. Personally I think it's unethical and irresponsible for a professional to do that without stating they are only opinions. If you don't back them up then they are your opinion. And stating over and over that you posted the research which can't be found doesn't mean you posted it. And when you don't even provide a title when asked it smacks of a hidden agenda. IMO

Well you can disagree all you want to, but the fact of the matter is that support cannot be gained from an abstract. An abstract is not intended to support anything, and that is why it is necessary to read the entire article to clarify what the abstract is saying. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of research will tell you that. But if you want to disagree, that's fine. You keep relying on abstracts but keep in mind, that, once again, you are relying on less than half of the information you need to support your argument, and that anyone who has access to the full article can rip your support apart.

 

[Byrdie714]

Uhmmm....

Question: if oralists on here are dead against teaching ASL with deaf children, then why are hearing parents teaching ASL to their hearing children before spoken language?

That is a contradiction right there. :roll:

 

[jillio]

Uhmmm....

Question: if oralists on here are dead against teaching ASL with deaf children, then why are hearing parents teaching ASL to their hearing children before spoken language?

That is a contradiction right there. :roll:

Its a huge contradiction, Byrdie, and one that shows the ethnocentricity at play.

 

[Bottesini]

Uhmmm....

Question: if oralists on here are dead against teaching ASL with deaf children, then why are hearing parents teaching ASL to their hearing children before spoken language?

That is a contradiction right there. :roll:

Even for hearing children, evidence is showing better cognitive development.

 

[web730]

Well, for your information, a friend of mine who is deaf and comes from a deaf family has PERFECT literacy skills!

Yes, true!

I had numbers of deaf classmates and friends, who came from the deaf families, most of them had higher literary skills than the majority at my school and also same at Gallaudet Univ.

Not only those schools that I have seen but I also met others here in Florida and others somewhere in the immediate past; it showed the same there pretty much.

I'm mere sure that Shel90 and others noticed that as well... esp for Shel90 and deaf school and mainstream teachers who met and taught much more students, and those teachers sufficiently noticed with the differences than many posters including me, to be fair.

Yet there were certain oral students who had high literary skills but not the majority out of that oral group, however. My several oral friends admitted they then realized that they wished they learned ASL before as kids but picked it up along at Gally... just like Shel90 did.

So it's no secret that the deaf kids from deaf families do have higher literary skills... as a matter of fact it did surprise us back then after we noticed more and more.

Two decades ago we (ISD students) eventually thought that ASL harmed our literary and English language skills somewhat, but later we realized that it was the early intervention part that failed us many in the first place.

 

[Byrdie714]

Its a huge contradiction, Byrdie, and one that shows the ethnocentricity at play.

Especially if the hearing parents find out their child is deaf and lo behold--slap a CI on them and raise them orally.

 

[Byrdie714]

Even for hearing children, evidence is showing better cognitive development.

I've seen the same thing.