Sound and Fury

[dorothy5664]

LOL. So many blessings in such a short time. I had a 22 1/2 month old so had three in diapers, car seats, etc. Isn't it amazing how much we can handle when we need to. I remember looking at new vehicles and the first thing we did was put the car seats in the back seat. Salesman asked if he could help us and we told him we would let him know if the seats fit.

 

[rick48]

You are not "forcing a CI" on a child. You are giving them options. You are giving them the option to learn to hear and speak. Without the CI you are closing that door for them. They don't have to take that road, you ar giving them choices.

Well said.

 

[rick48]

To be honest, I can see both sides of the issue. My twin daughters were born 10 weeks premature. One of them has a foot that turns in as the result of possible mild cerebral palsey. Once we had exhausted all of the exercises that we told to do with her, we were told that the only option left to us was to have her leg surgically turned below the knee. In other words, cutting the leg bones below the knee and turning them to straighten her lower leg. By this time, she was nine or ten years old. My husband and I discussed it and decided that it was entirely too invasive a surgery for us to make for her at that time. It would have required a significant amount of recovery time and the end result really wouldn't make a huge difference in the long run. We did discuss it with her and told her that if she wanted the surgery, that we would go through with it, but that we felt she should wait. Wait she did and even though her foot still turns in at the age of 21, it isn't a really big deal. She may not be the fleetest of foot in a foot race, but on the other hand, is that a major deal.

While I can appreciate the point you are making, your situation it is not the same set of facts as those that parents face when making the cochlear implant decision for their child. First, as far as surgeries go, as several surgeons have told me the cochlear implant surgery is not amongst the most complex surgeries being performed. Second, there is not a significant amount of recovery time involved-most patients either stay over night after the surgery or go home the same day. Third, with tens of thousands of children having been implanted over the last 20 years, it is well established that the cochlear implant does indeed provide benefits to children. The children you observed in S&F are more representative of the norm for those children implanted early and who recieve appropriate speech and language therapy. Finally, while it may sound nice and politically correct to say "I'll wait and let my child make the decision himself when he is older", the results, research and studies have consistently shown that to realize the most benefits from a cochlear implant, the sooner a child is implanted after the onset of deafness, the better opportunities that child has to acquire access to spoken language. One more thought, while you and your husband ultimately chose not to have the surgery performed on your daughter because it would not have made "a huge difference in the long run", that cannot compare to the tremendous impact that the cochlear implant has made upon the lives of deaf people. I can tell you from the firsthand experience of having raised a profoundly deaf child implanted almost 20 years ago that it has indeed made a "huge difference" in her life.
Rick

 

[rick48]

Peter knows that he is deaf- but it doesn't define who he is . He's very comfortable in his own skin - of which I am so very proud of.

That is exactly how my daughter views herself! I have always felt that if you try to limit her to her deafness or to define her by it, then you are missing the essence of who she really is.
Rick

 

[dorothy5664]

Rick48,

In no way did I intend to draw any similarities between the two procedures in my post explaining my family's personal experience. The purpose of the post was to establish the fact that we too have made difficult decisions as parents. Therefore, I can appreciate the dilemma that both sets of parents faced in making their decisions in the documentary mentioned. When push comes to shove, the final decision lies with the parents and what they feel is in the best interest of their child.

 

[rick48]

Rick48,

In no way did I intend to draw any similarities between the two procedures in my post explaining my family's personal experience. The purpose of the post was to establish the fact that we too have made difficult decisions as parents. Therefore, I can appreciate the dilemma that both sets of parents faced in making their decisions in the documentary mentioned. When push comes to shove, the final decision lies with the parents and what they feel is in the best interest of their child.

Thanks for the clarification and I totally agree with you that the decision lies with the parents and what they determine to be in the best interests of their child. I have met hundreds of parents over the years who have made the decision whether or not to implant their child. Regardless of their ultimate decision, almost universally they took the decision seriously, did their research and accepted their parental responsibility to make a determination that was in the best interests of their child.
Rick

 

[dorothy5664]

Rick48,

No problem with the clarification. Even though I have faced these tough decisions in the past, I never use the words, "I know how you feel" when talking to people who are making similar decisions. I may use the words "I sympathize or I empathize," but I don't think one can actually know exactly how another feels when faced with tough choices. Each person's situation is unique in its own way, eliminating the ability to know exactly how the other feels.

 

[faire_jour]

That's a loaded question: til the day my mother died, she was against the implant. She really resented my son and did everything possible to point out to him how different he was. My dad, on the other hand, really came around. He truly has seen the benefits of the implant and is extremely proud of how well Peter is doing with them. Peter and my dad are extremely close and I couldn't ask for anything more. Peter knows that he is deaf- but it doesn't define who he is . He's very comfortable in his own skin - of which I am so very proud of. Peter was bi-laterally implanted in kindergarten and really has done well. He's in a mainstream program and reads above grade level (he's in fifth grade currently) and is in the top of his class. the others in the family have subsequently gotten implanted and are doing quite well.

He's been upgraded to the Freedom implants and he has had a failure regarding on implant. We told him if he didn't want to be reimplanted, we would support his decision (he's 11 after all). He said no- he wanted to hear out of both ears- and so he was recently operated and turned on. He's bouncing back quite nicely.

I found the scene in the hospital very enlightening. When your mother said that she was worried that he would learn to speak and make fun of her or leave her behind...very telling....It made me so very sad for her. What happened to her to make her think that she was so unworthy of love, that her own grandson wouldn't love her because she couldn't talk....sad. BUT, that is NOT a reason not to give a child an implant, to make someone else feel better about themselves.

 

[AlleyCat]

You are not "forcing a CI" on a child. You are giving them options. You are giving them the option to learn to hear and speak. Without the CI you are closing that door for them. They don't have to take that road, you ar giving them choices.

FJ - you and I have been in contact previously regarding using spoken language and I believe we are very much on the same page with that. The input I want to put in this thread is that I do not have CIs, but HAs. And, with HAs, I still had the option to hear and speak. I must say that I don't see that not having a CI is closing a door for a deaf child.

You know that I very recently researched getting a CI, and opted not to because I would not benefit enough from it, according to my CI audiologist. It doesn't mean that doors were closed for me as a child without a CI.

 

[faire_jour]

FJ - you and I have been in contact previously regarding using spoken language and I believe we are very much on the same page with that. The input I want to put in this thread is that I do not have CIs, but HAs. And, with HAs, I still had the option to hear and speak. I must say that I don't see that not having a CI is closing a door for a deaf child.

You know that I very recently researched getting a CI, and opted not to because I would not benefit enough from it, according to my CI audiologist. It doesn't mean that doors were closed for me as a child without a CI.

But that is because you did benefit from your hearing aids. CI's are for people who don't. If a child can learn spoken language with a hearing aid they would not be a candidate for a CI. Therefore if they were not given a CI they would not have access to spoken language. They can't learn to hear if they can't hear, know what I mean?

 

[AlleyCat]

But that is because you did benefit from your hearing aids. CI's are for people who don't. If a child can learn spoken language with a hearing aid they would not be a candidate for a CI. Therefore if they were not given a CI they would not have access to spoken language. They can't learn to hear if they can't hear, know what I mean?

Good point. I initially read your post as to imply that any deaf child without a CI could not hear or speak, and I was thinking, "wait, I can, with HAs." I didn't realize you were referring to those for who even HAs don't help.

 

[faire_jour]

Good point. I initially read your post as to imply that any deaf child without a CI could not hear or speak, and I was thinking, "wait, I can, with HAs." I didn't realize you were referring to those for who even HAs don't help.

I know that every child and situation is different. Even other kids with Miss Kat's exact same loss can do beautifully with hearing aids, but she couldn't, therefore she was a candidate. I know that there are also people who are able to learn to speak without being able to hear, but it is much more difficult and the receptive language is a HUGE problem. They may be able to speak but can they understand spoken language? That is very key.

 

[Bebonang]

faire jour, You have a way with being so obsess in having your deaf child to hear and understand with spoken language whether lipreading or not. We, Deafies on the AD, have been trying to tell you that "fixing" to hear with a spoken language with the ability have CIs or hearing aids is not going to cure us at all. We will always remain deaf whether we have CI or hearing aids. This is the point we are trying to get across to you about that. You have been dreaming so much for your daughter to hear and listen to the sound and and to understand what a person say without lipreading. I feel sad for you to understand our situation how we have been suffering just because like AG bell and every audist professional think that there is a way for us to be cure. There is no cure, no matter what. So you have to accept the fact that your daughter will always be deaf for the rest of her life whether she has CI or wearing a hearing aids.

 

[dorothy5664]

Bebonang,

Not to get off topic, but you were the first person to welcome me to AD. Thank you so much, I have benefited so much from the people I have met here.

Now back to topic, it seems that the biggest argument for CI's is to provide the child with oral language skills, putting them on "even ground" with their peers. This would be a very strong argument, if ASL was not recognized as a legitimate language with its own form of grammar, which is a huge determining factor when recognizing a language.

The following is a passage that I copied from CNN Spanish News and used an online translator to translate it to English.

LOS PRIMEROS 100 DIAS DE OBAMA

Vea los primeros 100 días del presidente Barack Obama en el poder. CNN en Español le brinda amplia cobertura con el mejor equipo político que sigue paso a paso las acciones del nuevo gobierno de Estados Unidos.

THE FIRST 100 DAYS OF OBAMA

It sees the first 100 days of president Barack Obama in the power. Cnn in Spanish offers ample cover him the best political equipment than it step by step follows the actions of the new government of the United States.

Where I am going with this is that people need to understand that ASL is the native/natural language of the Deaf, just as Spanish is the native/natural language of those from Spanish based countries. Spanish no more translates to perfect English grammar anymore than ASL does. As a result, I don't personally feel that the language argument of the CI debate is really all that strong.

Does this make sense, or am I off base here?

 

[shel90]

Some deaf with HAs were able to learn to speak and understand spoken English.

Some deaf with HAs were not able to learn to speak and not able to understand spoken English.

Some deaf with CIs were able to learn to speak and understand spoken English.

Some deaf with CIs were not able to learn to speak and not able to understand spoken English.


The key is we dont know who will benefit from which device so to safeguard against any language delays, provide ASL to all of them because all deaf children will speak and understand ASL since it is fully accessible to them.


That's the point that Deaf activities and people in the Deaf community are trying to make with these hearing people who seem to have difficulting understanding that concept.

As for the view that CIs are a person's way of shunning the Deaf community and ASL, that's a WHOLE different issue and it was probably the issue the mother in the movie had but I can only speculate since I wasnt there with the family.

 

[rick48]

faire jour, You have a way with being so obsess in having your deaf child to hear and understand with spoken language whether lipreading or not. We, Deafies on the AD, have been trying to tell you that "fixing" to hear with a spoken language with the ability have CIs or hearing aids is not going to cure us at all. We will always remain deaf whether we have CI or hearing aids. This is the point we are trying to get across to you about that. You have been dreaming so much for your daughter to hear and listen to the sound and and to understand what a person say without lipreading. I feel sad for you to understand our situation how we have been suffering just because like AG bell and every audist professional think that there is a way for us to be cure. There is no cure, no matter what. So you have to accept the fact that your daughter will always be deaf for the rest of her life whether she has CI or wearing a hearing aids.

FJ is not being obsessive about wanting what she has determined to be in the best interests of HER child. This is not about YOU or US DEAFIES it is about her child. The fact that you use offensive and insensitive terms such as "fixing" when describing her choice to implant her child and still cling to the lie that parents who choose implants for their child are attempting to "cure" deafness demonstrates that you do not and probably will never understand this issue at all.

Far from feeling sad for FJ it is you who are the sad individual for actually thinking that FJ's decision for her child somehow involves you. FJ and thousands of ci parents liek her have accepted that her/their children are deaf, what we refuse to accept is that there is only one way to raise any child, even a deaf one.

 

[rick48]

Now back to topic, it seems that the biggest argument for CI's is to provide the child with oral language skills, putting them on "even ground" with their peers. This would be a very strong argument, if ASL was not recognized as a legitimate language with its own form of grammar, which is a huge determining factor when recognizing a language.

Your 'biggest argument" theory is incorrect. Yes, the ci, along with the proper S&L therapy, can enable most deaf children with access to oral language skills but the goal is not to put them on "even ground" with their hearing peers but to give them the best opportunity available to maximize their oral language skills.

I have raised both a hearing and a deaf child and would never say to anyone that as well as my daughter hears with her ci that her hearing is the same as her hearing sister's. How a deaf child with a ci and a hearing child acquire oral language skills are two different routes. At the end of the day do they have similar oral skills yes, but how they got there is not the same.

That ASL is recognized as a legitimate language has absolutely no bearing on the ci decision for a child. There are many parents who expose their ci children to both oral language and to ASL for they are not and never have been mutually exclusive. However, the reality is that in the United States over 99% of the population does not use ASL as their primary mode of communication and approximately the same number utilize spoken English as their primary means of communication. Thus, the ability to provide your deaf child with the opportunity to maximize their oral language skills is giving your child a benefit. If that opportunity is through HAs, CIs or some other means then those parents should make that decision that is in thier child's best interests.
Rick

 

[dorothy5664]

Rick,

As far as even ground, I meant as far as evening the playing field between hearing and deaf children and what the future opportunities available to them as adults.

As we established before, I agree that it is ultimately the responsibility of the parents to make the right decision for their child's personal needs. You are also correct in that the majority of US residents speak English, but I have also seen sources that it could be actually as low as 82%. However, I still maintain that there needs to be greater acknowledgment that ASL is like any language (besides English) and that even though the syntax, grammar, etc. may be different, it doesn't mean that those who use ASL, especially as it is reflected in written form, are in anyway lacking in intelligence and should be offered the same opportunities as their hearing counterparts.

 

[shel90]

Rick,

As far as even ground, I meant as far as evening the playing field between hearing and deaf children and what the future opportunities available to them as adults.

As we established before, I agree that it is ultimately the responsibility of the parents to make the right decision for their child's personal needs. You are also correct in that the majority of US residents speak English, but I have also seen sources that it could be actually as low as 82%. However, I still maintain that there needs to be greater acknowledgment that ASL is like any language (besides English) and that even though the syntax, grammar, etc. may be different, it doesn't mean that those who use ASL, especially as it is reflected in written form, are in anyway lacking in intelligence and should be offered the same opportunities as their hearing counterparts.

I have met so many intelligent and creative deaf people whose primary language is ASL. To say that those who use ASL are less intelligent is lacking in something.

 

[dorothy5664]

Thanks Shel! How are you today?