Some children who are born deaf recover from their deafness

I think you are right about glue ear. It was long time ago, and my brother is 30 years old now, will be 31 on October 19.
 
most of which is indirect and peripheral. Deaf/HH children learn sign in the same way, but learn speech and oral language through direct teaching and therapy. There is a huge difference in internalization and mastery as a native tongue.

And unless you plan to implant in utero, there willalways be delays, not to mention the dlays that are inherent in having to learn a language rather than acquire a language.
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yes excellent point jillo!!!!! iPlus the gross majority of dhh kids have significent speech and language delays, and will have speech and language as part of their iep for as long as they're in school!
 
deafdyke said:
yes excellent point jillo!!!!! iPlus the gross majority of dhh kids have significent speech and language delays, and will have speech and language as part of their iep for as long as they're in school!
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While virtually all kids will have s&L language therapy in elementary school, it drops off in the middle school years and especially in high school.

True that most deaf kids of hearing parents have delays due to the length of time between diagnosis of deafness and beginning of language therapy but it applies to deaf kids regardless of language method chosen by the parents and while there initially may be language delays, those delays can be and are eliminated or decreased by the time they enter school.

Exactly what is your point by noting that S&L therapy will be rrequired? So what.
Rick
 
deafdyke said:
yes excellent point jillo!!!!! iPlus the gross majority of dhh kids have significent speech and language delays, and will have speech and language as part of their iep for as long as they're in school!
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True...I guess that's life.
 
Cloggy said:
Just like deaf children that can hear.

Because they cannot hear.. (enough)

What does that mean ??
Let's ask Wiki...

And wiki again...

Ah ha........ no ... still don't get that sentence......


When a deaf child can hear, it can aquire the language....
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Cloggy,

True, because the ci will give some kids access to sounds and to indirect or peripheral language that they would not get with HAs and obviously if unaided.
Rick
 
rick48 said:
Cloggy,

True, because the ci will give some kids access to sounds and to indirect or peripheral language that they would not get with HAs and obviously if unaided.
Rick
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U know what's weird? I have a profound hearing loss of 120 dB since birth and with my HAs, I can catch several words without lipreading. No, I cant rely on them alone for conversations but I was just sitting here typing on another thread with my back turned and I heard and understood my husband say to my son "Nathanial..stop throwing the ball." I turned around and asked him what he said and he told me exactly what I heard. Someone told me that we hear with our brains not with our ears. It could be the case with what just happened. I can talk on the phone (limited) with my regular HAs but too much work for me so I lost interest. I am sure the CI is a big improvement over HAs but just wanted to give u a FYI...sometimes HAs work well enough for profoundly deaf people. My best friend has a dB loss of 90 and can carry conversations on the phone with her regular (not digital) HAs.

Just wanted to share that...not saying that u are wrong nor arguing with your POV..
 
What does it matter how much someone can or cant here with a HA or CI? What does it matter how much speech and language therapy and child may or may not need? The point being is the CI's are here to stay and very legal
for a parent to implant their children. As long as that child is protected under law to be implanted, the will continue to do so.


Cloggy and others, when you come here your not really respecting others POV's on the implant. And you sure arent educating. Your coming across as pushy and overbearing, quite frankly reading many of your posts almost turned me off of getting a CI.I was afraid that it would turn me into you guys. Cloggy the only thing I see you post over and over and over and over again is the *child can hear*. A Ci does not do that alone. I had hearing aids since I was 14 and heard well enough with those. Yes I could talk on the phone with them. I mean I heard well AND was profoundly deaf.So therefore I could hear too.

A CI nor a hearing aid will ever make you INTO A HEARING PERSON AGAIN. I do know the difference. A Ci and a HA allows you to hear the sounds around you. They do not nor ever will allow true hearing. That is the point deaf people are making, it does not, nor ever will allow true hearing. Yes, Cloggy and others, your kids do *hear* with the CI, but its not what the hearing hears.

Now to the deaf ones, speech, no matter how it is acquired, is a good skill to have in your arsenal. I prefer to sign, than having to talk all the time. But, I can and do talk as well. And I talk very clearly, that has to do with being able to hear myself talk, as well as, growing up hearing.What Cloggy and others are trying to say is, you do talk more clearly and enunciate *sp?* better when you can hear yourself talk. You lose that nasal quality in your voice *deaf voice* when you can you hear yourself.

There will always be differences and points to make as Pro-or ANTI CI. And this bickering back and forth between the two groups isnt helping. It just makes both sides seem pushy and fanatical. Almost to the point of driving anyone away from Deaf Culture or a CI.

Ci's will not eradicated Deaf Culture or sign language. There will always be people who can sign and talk, sign only, or talk only. That has been the case for years now and will continue being the case for years to come.

The only thing eradicating Deaf Culture, is the way the deaf world is. We all know that because it is so small and that it does happen in the hearing world too, but in the deaf world, the backstabbing and the rumors are rampant. THAT is what turns people off of the deaf culture. Until we grow up and show more maturity in the deaf culture, people will turn away from it.

I mean come on, ever went to a store or restaraunt with a deaf friend and they threw a tantrum over the smallest thing? Deaf people can be very rude and immature when dealing with problems. THIS is the image most hearing people see and take notice of.


Pro-Ciers your also not helping our image by turning away from the deaf culture all together. I am a Cier and refuse to take being shunned by the deaf, instead I chose to educate them. Yes, look at me, I am a CI user, yet I sign and when I take off the CI, I am just as deaf as you are.

I dont agree with implanting children, however, I am smart enough to know that no matter what I say or do, that a parent has the choice for themselves.

I could state those opinions here. But why do so? When I have people like Cloggy and others more than willing to shoot down those opinions?

I could state many reasons for a CI. WHY should I do so? When I have people more than willing to shoot down any reason to get a CI.

My opinion is just let everyone be what they wanna be. And chose to live together peacefully, and educate both sides on the goodness of a CI and the goodness of teaching signs and the deaf culture that they belong to.
 
Bear said:
I could state those opinions here. But why do so? When I have people like Cloggy and others more than willing to shoot down those opinions?

I could state many reasons for a CI. WHY should I do so? When I have people more than willing to shoot down any reason to get a CI.
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Interesting, that although you want to give the appearance of being "neutral" the only person you chose to name was Cloggy.

Why?

Why did you not name one of the many anti-ci posters?

You have a problem with "people like Cloggy", well all I can say is thank God for Cloggy and those willing to stand up to the lies and misrepresentations spewed forth by those who are opposed to cochlear implants!

Cloggy, keep up the good work, you are making a difference!
Rick
 
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deafdyke said:
now here's a question............what percentage of oral-only are so sucessful that they require very minimal support services? Like just being tracked "just in case' by a specialist, and maybe prefernetial seating?
rick, you still don't get it.............that's b/c you've bought into the party line that "there's freedom in listening and speaking".....Yes oral skills rock, but what if asl skills were promoted as "freedom from very expensive health technology?" I know that for example ling said that he thought that some kids definitly need sign, and he's not against it per se. but still..........he (and other oral experts) still see it as something that's "special needs", rather then as another tool that could significently help dhh kids.
far as i know oral only kids have the same rate of acheivement as kids who sign. there are still many oral only kids who are still very special ed, and underacheiving. just imagine, if asl advocates did the same thing that oral advocates did............and you know what? with health care costs being the way they are, its almost impossible for dhh kids to be totally independant. they are dependant on the technology and can't function without it (except on a limited basis with lipreading, which is not exactly reliable)
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DD,

If still not "getting" it means agreeing with you that a cochlear implant is not cost effective, then I still do not agree with you because it is cost effective.

If still not "getting" it means agreeing with you that having a cochlear implant makes you dependent upon technology and that is a negative, then I still do not agree with you because it is not a negative. I guess its ok to be dependent upon interpreters though?

You say I bought the "party line", sorry but I am unfamiliar with the "party line" is that the one that says that ci kids can only say "boo-be-bah"?

Rick
 
rick, give bear a break! The deaf community has come so so far in accepting CIs in a few short years. I remember over at Deaf Notes, in the old days when most posts were anti CI. Now people are a lot more neutral. Simply b/c we're not all "rah rah rah" on CIs, we're attacked and treated like militants.
I am VERY pro CI, that is for the right people. Yet I'm sure that you and Cloggy regard me as a militant simply b/c of some of my views.
Rick, yes, but can you give me hard numbers on the percentage of oral only kids who don't require speech services any more?
And how many of those kids are kids who simply cannot benifit from further speech therapy any more? Like, they have OK speech, but a lot of what they say is very hard to understand. And besides, maybe a lot of them simply can't benifit from garden variety speech therapy. Are you aware that a lot of orally trained deaf kids, have to return to their oral schools post "graduation"? I'm not surprised that there are some dhh kids who no longer require speech services at all, but they are probaly in the minority.
 
rick48 said:
Interesting, that although you want to give the appearance of being "neutral" the only person you chose to name was Cloggy.

Why?

Why did you not name one of the many anti-ci posters?

You have a problem with "people like Cloggy", well all I can say is thank God for Cloggy and those willing to stand up to the lies and misrepresentations spewed forth daily by those who are opposed to cochlear implants!

Cloggy, keep up the good work, you are making a difference!
Rick
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The reason I name Cloggy is because he is the most vocal. Actually I do applaud Cloggy for standing up for his reasons for implanting his daughter. Can I say stop making assumptions? Cloggy is the leading one shooting down mis information about the CI's. I never said he wasn't.

However, I could have stated you shel and others. I didnt I stated many.

All I can say is when you post the child can hear over and over again, it does sound like too much of a push. And the deafies push back just as hard.

Cloggy does a very good job at getting the correct information about CI's out there. If that is all he did then he would be applauded in my book. However, Cloggy also tends to get into the debates that a CI is all that and more.

So as you can see there is no problem between Cloggy and I and as far as I know there never have been. In fact, Cloggy was one of the first to congratulate me on qualifying for and getting a CI.


A CI is a wonderful tool, although NOT for everyone. And this is how Cloggy sometimes comes across, is that EVERYONE should get a CI. I'm sure he's not intending to, but he does.

The deafies come across as NO ONE should get a CI and that the deaf culture IS THE ONLY way to go. I could name one that does this so vocally that person sounds almost insane. I wont name any names here about who that person is but we all do know without names.

Somewhere, somehow, the ciers and the deafies are gonna have to find a middle ground and live in peace and let everyone be what they wanna be.
 
Bear said:
My opinion is just let everyone be what they wanna be. And chose to live together peacefully, and educate both sides on the goodness of a CI and the goodness of teaching signs and the deaf culture that they belong to.
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Well said Bear. We may not agree but we can respect each other's personal opinions.
 
rick, ah-ha..............that's exactly what i mean when i say you bought the party line.
Pro-oral only people seem obessed with sign users using interpreters. They constantly refer to them as being "dependant" on them. Yet why aren't oral only people called dependant when they use things like fm devices, ORAL interpreters and so on? They still can't function too well without those things? If 'terps cause dependancy, then how come so many ex-oral people use them, and find them *gasp* FREEING?!?!?!?!?!
 
deafdyke said:
And how many of those kids are kids who simply cannot benifit from further speech therapy any more? Like, they have OK speech, but a lot of what they say is very hard to understand. And besides, maybe a lot of them simply can't benifit from garden variety speech therapy. Are you aware that a lot of orally trained deaf kids, have to return to their oral schools post "graduation"? I'm not surprised that there are some dhh kids who no longer require speech services at all, but they are probaly in the minority.
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DD,

I have already said that the only kid I know who continued s&l therapy through HS and into college was a girl who's at Harvard. However, since you made the statement initially, I am certain that you can provide us with the "hard numbers" on the percentage of oral only kids who do require speech services through HS and college. While you are at it also provide us with the "hard Numbers" of orally trained deaf kids who have to return to their oral schools post graduation.

boo-be-bah,
Rick
 
Bear said:
What does it matter how much someone can or cant here with a HA or CI? What does it matter how much speech and language therapy and child may or may not need? The point being is the CI's are here to stay and very legal
for a parent to implant their children. As long as that child is protected under law to be implanted, the will continue to do so.


Cloggy and others, when you come here your not really respecting others POV's on the implant. And you sure arent educating. Your coming across as pushy and overbearing, quite frankly reading many of your posts almost turned me off of getting a CI.I was afraid that it would turn me into you guys. Cloggy the only thing I see you post over and over and over and over again is the *child can hear*. A Ci does not do that alone. I had hearing aids since I was 14 and heard well enough with those. Yes I could talk on the phone with them. I mean I heard well AND was profoundly deaf.So therefore I could hear too.

A CI nor a hearing aid will ever make you INTO A HEARING PERSON AGAIN. I do know the difference. A Ci and a HA allows you to hear the sounds around you. They do not nor ever will allow true hearing. That is the point deaf people are making, it does not, nor ever will allow true hearing. Yes, Cloggy and others, your kids do *hear* with the CI, but its not what the hearing hears.

Now to the deaf ones, speech, no matter how it is acquired, is a good skill to have in your arsenal. I prefer to sign, than having to talk all the time. But, I can and do talk as well. And I talk very clearly, that has to do with being able to hear myself talk, as well as, growing up hearing.What Cloggy and others are trying to say is, you do talk more clearly and enunciate *sp?* better when you can hear yourself talk. You lose that nasal quality in your voice *deaf voice* when you can you hear yourself.

There will always be differences and points to make as Pro-or ANTI CI. And this bickering back and forth between the two groups isnt helping. It just makes both sides seem pushy and fanatical. Almost to the point of driving anyone away from Deaf Culture or a CI.

Ci's will not eradicated Deaf Culture or sign language. There will always be people who can sign and talk, sign only, or talk only. That has been the case for years now and will continue being the case for years to come.

The only thing eradicating Deaf Culture, is the way the deaf world is. We all know that because it is so small and that it does happen in the hearing world too, but in the deaf world, the backstabbing and the rumors are rampant. THAT is what turns people off of the deaf culture. Until we grow up and show more maturity in the deaf culture, people will turn away from it.

I mean come on, ever went to a store or restaraunt with a deaf friend and they threw a tantrum over the smallest thing? Deaf people can be very rude and immature when dealing with problems. THIS is the image most hearing people see and take notice of.


Pro-Ciers your also not helping our image by turning away from the deaf culture all together. I am a Cier and refuse to take being shunned by the deaf, instead I chose to educate them. Yes, look at me, I am a CI user, yet I sign and when I take off the CI, I am just as deaf as you are.

I dont agree with implanting children, however, I am smart enough to know that no matter what I say or do, that a parent has the choice for themselves.

I could state those opinions here. But why do so? When I have people like Cloggy and others more than willing to shoot down those opinions?

I could state many reasons for a CI. WHY should I do so? When I have people more than willing to shoot down any reason to get a CI.

My opinion is just let everyone be what they wanna be. And chose to live together peacefully, and educate both sides on the goodness of a CI and the goodness of teaching signs and the deaf culture that they belong to.
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:gpost:
 
Bear said:
.............
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Bear said:
.............
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Very well said, and I do regret the I come over nowadays.
But what has to be seen in all this, is that I never say anything about Deaf culture. I respect deaf culture, HOWEVER, my opinion about my daughters ability to hear and directing focus back on her progres when this is ignores is INTERPRETED as disrespect. This is totally wrong. In fact, the disrespect goes the other way...
And previously I would have ignore that... now I am fed up with it.
And other parents chose to turn away from AllDeaf, parents that really tried to make contact with the Deaf community, but were rejected by the majority. It's a loss for AllDeaf.
Other parents, mostly mothers of children with CI that came here to share their positive story have left. They never showedany disrespect towards the Deaf world, still their opinion and stories are interpreted as child-abuse and audist attitude.

Well, what should I (and Rick for that matter) do.. Leave as well. ??? That wold be taking the easy way out, and you know, we have never done that, and are still not doing that.
So, I will stay here and share my experiences of my daughter with anyone who wants to hear...

And have a look at those experiences.... and look how much "respect" is shown from the people that accuse me and Rick of disrespecting Deaf world... and that is without us saying anything negative about it....
Our stories are not relevant for some, because they do not agree with the "accepted" view"...

A child that has CI (or even worse... bi-lateral!) has a parent that does not love it's child, hates sign, hates deaf world, doesn't realise that the child needs ASL, takes the easy way out, has not thought about the future for it's child, thinks the child can hear like normal hearing (whatever that is) etc. etc....

Guess I don't fit the profile... guess it's easier to ignore all the rediculous stories.....

But you are absolutely right.. all the bickering is leading to nothing and for that reason I have distanced myself again from the endless discussions..
My point of view is from my daughter point of view into the world.
Other peoples view is from a child that struggles' point of view into the world.
Some look into the light and some into the dark. Some are blinded by the light, some have the right filters. Some see the light at the end of the black tunnel and are working to get the child there, and then there are those that only see darkness and cannot accept that there is actually light at the end. Lot's of it.

Thanks again for your posts.. .they are great and I really appreciated them. I started replying on them because of the wrong assumptions in it, but decided against it. What's the point...???
That's how I come across, and that's fine. Those who have "know" me a bit longer have seen the other side as well, and perhaps will be able to think back to that as well.
 
Bear, just wow..........yeah, just wow!!

This is DEFINITELY not a signal for anyone to leave, either.
 
Cloggy said:
Very well said, and I do regret the I come over nowadays.
But what has to be seen in all this, is that I never say anything about Deaf culture. I respect deaf culture, HOWEVER, my opinion about my daughters ability to hear and directing focus back on her progres when this is ignores is INTERPRETED as disrespect. This is totally wrong. In fact, the disrespect goes the other way...
And previously I would have ignore that... now I am fed up with it.
And other parents chose to turn away from AllDeaf, parents that really tried to make contact with the Deaf community, but were rejected by the majority. It's a loss for AllDeaf.
Other parents, mostly mothers of children with CI that came here to share their positive story have left. They never showedany disrespect towards the Deaf world, still their opinion and stories are interpreted as child-abuse and audist attitude.

Well, what should I (and Rick for that matter) do.. Leave as well. ??? That wold be taking the easy way out, and you know, we have never done that, and are still not doing that.
So, I will stay here and share my experiences of my daughter with anyone who wants to hear...

And have a look at those experiences.... and look how much "respect" is shown from the people that accuse me and Rick of disrespecting Deaf world... and that is without us saying anything negative about it....
Our stories are not relevant for some, because they do not agree with the "accepted" view"...

A child that has CI (or even worse... bi-lateral!) has a parent that does not love it's child, hates sign, hates deaf world, doesn't realise that the child needs ASL, takes the easy way out, has not thought about the future for it's child, thinks the child can hear like normal hearing (whatever that is) etc. etc....

Guess I don't fit the profile... guess it's easier to ignore all the rediculous stories.....

But you are absolutely right.. all the bickering is leading to nothing and for that reason I have distanced myself again from the endless discussions..
My point of view is from my daughter point of view into the world.
Other peoples view is from a child that struggles' point of view into the world.
Some look into the light and some into the dark. Some are blinded by the light, some have the right filters. Some see the light at the end of the black tunnel and are working to get the child there, and then there are those that only see darkness and cannot accept that there is actually light at the end. Lot's of it.

Thanks again for your posts.. .they are great and I really appreciated them. I started replying on them because of the wrong assumptions in it, but decided against it. What's the point...???
That's how I come across, and that's fine. Those who have "know" me a bit longer have seen the other side as well, and perhaps will be able to think back to that as well.
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Well said Cloggy. You have expressed the frustrations that come with having chosen a different path that others did not.
Rick
 
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