Some children who are born deaf recover from their deafness

[Cloggy]

It's time to stop comparing apples with oranges.
You might be able project/correlate the social-emotional problems of a child that is Deaf/HOH nowadays with a child that was Deaf/HOH in the past.
You cannot do that with a Deaf/HOH child that uses CI.!!

........I mean GOD even kids who have pretty good language are often at a disadvantage since they may have a "deaf" voice. As a matter of fact, I have one of those. Although my language is wicked good (I have a VERY high verbal IQ), the quality of my voice isn't great. You have NO idea of the number of times people have assumed I'm retarded simply b/c my voice is so odd sounding. I talk like a Harvard professor, but there's still a HUGE number of people who can't get past the fact that I talk funny.

Hearing your own voice would help....wouldn't it... Children with CI hear their own voice

........
I also know that a lot of times social issues are a big topic at AG Bell conferences and things like that. I remember too reading in a book on methodologies from the library, that research suggested that oral kids did have significent social issues.
In addition, it is really frustrating to have to repeat yourself, or have people say "what? what? what?" all the time. .

Hearing the other person helps I guess, instead of relying on lipreading... Children with CI hear the other person.

........And yes, I know your daughter's done well socially, but everyone's an indivdual. Just b/c a small percentage of oral dhh kids have no problems with social issues, it doesn't mean that ALL dhh kids do. There are AG Bell superstars who are very high acheiving and go on to Harvard or another Ivy League college. That doesn't mean that EVERY oral kid is like that. God, I remember reading an overview of Auditory-Verbal, where Doreen Pollack yapped on and on and on about this one kid who spoke seven languages, who had also been raised auditory verbally. (and I believe this was back in the '60's) Just b/c ONE kid or some kids like that were super high achieving it doesn't mean that ALL kids will do as well.

Very, very true. We should not take the super-succesful as an example.
In the same way, we should not take the super-failures as an example... Look at the average child with CI.

Why is it not OK for Rick and me to show these average children, (we don't even come up with the super-succes-stories..) but it is OK to focus every example where something went wrong???

DD, do you really think that CI does NOT make any difference on the problems a deaf/hoh child could experience??

 

[Drew's Dad]

It's time to stop comparing apples with oranges.
You might be able project/correlate the social-emotional problems of a child that is Deaf/HOH nowadays with a child that was Deaf/HOH in the past.
You cannot do that with a Deaf/HOH child that uses CI.!!

Very, very true. We should not take the super-succesful as an example.
In the same way, we should not take the super-failures as an example... Look at the average child with CI.

Why is it not OK for Rick and me to show these average children, (we don't even come up with the super-succes-stories..) but it is OK to focus every example where something went wrong???

DD, do you really think that CI does NOT make any difference on the problems a deaf/hoh child could experience??

I agree Cloggy, I have yet to read a post that mentions what I would consider a "super-success story". I've read people talking about the successes that their young children have had, or their friend's children. These successes are happening, and in my area they are happening frequently (I don't care to debate what a "success" is again).

Finally, when someone is going to say "I only know two CI kids, one can't speak at all and one does wonderful", remember that these factors below may have made a big impact in why (at least in part) one found success and one didn't. I made a post on this issue a while ago, some may find it useful.

we-need-current-info-before-writing-off-cochlear-implants

 

[Cloggy]

No, you don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, however, the incidence of children who are deaf that receive speech therapy is disproportionate to the children who are not deaf who receive speech therapy. No, you do not have to be deaf to have emotional problems, however, being deaf, and in particular, being raised in a strictly oral environment while deaf, significantly increases the risk of developing such. No, you don't need to be deaf in order NOT tofit in, however, the incidence of adjustment problems in integrating into the wider hearing society is greater; not because of any characteristic inherent in deafness, but because of the social policies and attitudes of the wider hearing society regarding deafness. It is these inequities that I am concerned with, and I suggest that those posters who tend to agree with me are concerned with.

I guess you mean "guess", or "assume"

But I agree with you. That IS the case with HOH/deaf children that cannot hear, and these children and their parents should be taken care of to prevent this.
But what is the result when these HOH/deaf children can hear?
Do you really believe that the statistics will be the same.... Do yo really believe that a CI will not make any difference when the same effort to teach the child sign language is put into teaching the child to use it's hearing??

My guess is that both groups of children, the "HOH/deaf children that can hear" and "HOH/deaf children that cannot hear", will have the same development in communication skills when using their "hearing"/"using sign".

The first group however will be able to use their skills with a much wider audience compared to the latter. And that ability is very likely related to potential social and emotional problems..

 

[jillio]

Rick, I am under the impression that you're trying to discount our experiences with struggling to fit with the hearing. It may that that this isn't the impression you wanted to give.

I realize that much of what we're trying to tell you is accedotional but I think our experience is just as valid as the set of data you want to see.

I'm no sociologist unlike DD but I'd guess that despression would be the most common outcome given all the stories that I've seen in the Deaf community. While I don't always like reading some of Sweetmind's angry posts, I can empathize with some of her experinces with the hearing. I've been there too. However, I'm not a bitter person. Many deaf raised orally - if not all - tend to become bitter as a result.

I must note here that I've met ony two CIers so I dunno if that's also true for many children with CIs. One clearly had deaf speech and couldn't speak on the phone and the other one that I met, I thought she was hearing at first till I saw her implant. I dunno about the data regarding CI'ers. I'd be interested in data provided by a third party which has no vested interest in implants, oralism or ASL.

Now I've had my share of the emotional-social problems but I believe this is more likely due to a family history of problems like being bipolor or depressed. My deafness just compounded the other problems.

 

[jillio]

I have to agree with Deafskeptic. You and Cloggy are actually pretty well informed and well involved as hearing parents go. You for example, have ensured that your daughter had access to support and other peers like her.

However, there are parents out there who have their deaf children in complete isolation, expecting them to completely assimilate and do not realise how lonely they are, unable to keep up with hearing large group conversations etc. This can lead to a lot of stress for the child over time and such children may feel that no one understands what it is like to be them.

I think its healthy for deaf kids to have access to others like them to share experiences, frustrations and laughs. I personally don't think it matters whether they are oral or not as long as they are able to share experiences. Kids never like to feel that they are the "only ones" like them. Adolescents in particular hate being different to the crowd.

This is why I feel that whatever communication approach a parent takes, a healthy two way relationship, where a child can tell their parent anything, is the way to go. The parent in turn needs to address any concerns and feelings seriously, rather than brush over the difficulties.

And the best way for parents to address these problems is proactively, rather than retroactively. In order for that to be accomplished, they must be made aware of the fact that the incidence and prevalence rates for these difficulties are extremely high in the D/d/hh population.

 

[jillio]

I guess you mean "guess", or "assume"

But I agree with you. That IS the case with HOH/deaf children that cannot hear, and these children and their parents should be taken care of to prevent this.
But what is the result when these HOH/deaf children can hear?
Do you really believe that the statistics will be the same.... Do yo really believe that a CI will not make any difference when the same effort to teach the child sign language is put into teaching the child to use it's hearing??

My guess is that both groups of children, the "HOH/deaf children that can hear" and "HOH/deaf children that cannot hear", will have the same development in communication skills when using their "hearing"/"using sign".

The first group however will be able to use their skills with a much wider audience compared to the latter. And that ability is very likely related to potential social and emotional problems..

Yes, I do believe that. Of the implanted young adults implanted as children that I have dealt with, and am currently dealing with as college students, all are functionally HOH and continue to have adjustments and social problems.

And, no, I meant what I typed: "suggest". Please refrain from changing my words to manipulate the meaning.

 

[shel90]

DD, do you really think that CI does NOT make any difference on the problems a deaf/hoh child could experience??

For some children, yes.

For some children, no.

Just found out that we will get 4 new students from the public schools starting in the Fall. All of them have CIs. If they were successful in the public schools, I am sure they would have stayed, right?

 

[R2D2]

Yes, I agree with Shell. My guess from reading lots of studies and articles is that roughly 70% of children benefit from their CIs whereas around 30% do not. There will be a lot of factors contributing to those results e.g. etiology, parental background, income levels, quality of support from education body, presence of other disabilities etc etc.

So provisions still needs to be made for the 30% and also those in the 70% who have particular outstanding needs pertaining to their deafness.

From a social policy perspective though, they reckon that even with that variable result, it is still vastly better than the outcomes they used to get with the same profoundly deaf group with no aids at all.

 

[jillio]

It's time to stop comparing apples with oranges.
You might be able project/correlate the social-emotional problems of a child that is Deaf/HOH nowadays with a child that was Deaf/HOH in the past.
You cannot do that with a Deaf/HOH child that uses CI.!!

Hearing your own voice would help....wouldn't it... Children with CI hear their own voice

Hearing the other person helps I guess, instead of relying on lipreading... Children with CI hear the other person.

Very, very true. We should not take the super-succesful as an example.
In the same way, we should not take the super-failures as an example... Look at the average child with CI.

Why is it not OK for Rick and me to show these average children, (we don't even come up with the super-succes-stories..) but it is OK to focus every example where something went wrong???

DD, do you really think that CI does NOT make any difference on the problems a deaf/hoh child could experience??

The average young adult with CI s what I see on a daily basis. And I'm telling you inthat population, theproblems exist. Shel as well sees the average child with a CI on a daily bais. And she is telling you the same thing.

 

[deafskeptic]

Yes, I agree with Shell. My guess from reading lots of studies and articles is that roughly 70% of children benefit from their CIs whereas around 30% do not. There will be a lot of factors contributing to those results e.g. etiology, parental background, income levels, quality of support from education body, presence of other disabilities etc etc.

So provisions still needs to be made for the 30% and also those in the 70% who have particular outstanding needs pertaining to their deafness.

From a social policy perspective though, they reckon that even with that variable result, it is still vastly better than the outcomes they used to get with the same profoundly deaf group with no aids at all.

30% don't benefit from CIs? That's much higher than I've been led to believe from Cloggy's posts on the subject. I'd like to read up on this stuff.

While I think it's great that both Rick's and Cloggy's daughters have benefited from them, you can't ignore the fact that CIs don't work for everyone.

I can see why many deaf are rather skeptical of the promises made by oralists.

I know one guy who has a bone conductive loss and my guess is that he hears around 30 to 40 db judging from his MSN messages to me and he's having trouble socializing with the hearing. My point here is that even with mild to moderate losses, it can be hard to socialize with the hearing. He's culturaly hearing too and has no interest in the Deaf culture.

 

[R2D2]

30% don't benefit from CIs? That's much higher than I've been led to believe from Cloggy's posts on the subject. I'd like to read up on this stuff.

I can't prove it right now but when I have some time I will see if I can dig up something that led me to that very rough conclusion.

If Cloggy has any other material that says otherwise, I would be interested.

 

[deafskeptic]

I'd be interested too.

 

[shel90]

30% don't benefit from CIs? That's much higher than I've been led to believe from Cloggy's posts on the subject. I'd like to read up on this stuff.

While I think it's great that both Rick's and Cloggy's daughters have benefited from them, you can't ignore the fact that CIs don't work for everyone.

I can see why many deaf are rather skeptical of the promises made by oralists.

I know one guy who has a bone conductive loss and my guess is that he hears around 30 to 40 db judging from his MSN messages to me and he's having trouble socializing with the hearing. My point here is that even with mild to moderate losses, it can be hard to socialize with the hearing. He's culturaly hearing too and has no interest in the Deaf culture.

I have one student who has the same condition and with the BOCA hearing aid (hope that's the right word) she hears at 20 dB which is pratically hearing but her ability to percieve speech is not there. Interesting, isnt it? Like I have stated, both my brother and I have a 120 dB hearing loss but I percieve sounds and speech so much differently than he does. Ahhh..the complexities of the brain, heh?

 

[deafskeptic]

I have one student who has the same condition and with the BOCA hearing aid (hope that's the right word) she hears at 20 dB which is pratically hearing but her ability to percieve speech is not there. Interesting, isnt it? Like I have stated, both my brother and I have a 120 dB hearing loss but I percieve sounds and speech so much differently than he does. Ahhh..the complexities of the brain, heh?

Baha?

 

[shel90]

Baha?

something like that...I am tired and cant think too hard. LOL!

 

[R2D2]

I have one student who has the same condition and with the BOCA hearing aid (hope that's the right word) she hears at 20 dB which is pratically hearing but her ability to percieve speech is not there. Interesting, isnt it? Like I have stated, both my brother and I have a 120 dB hearing loss but I percieve sounds and speech so much differently than he does. Ahhh..the complexities of the brain, heh?

120db? Wow, that is a big loss. It must have been a big strain on you being raised orally with a loss like that. My nephew has a similar loss and he just got no benefit at all from hearing aids and my sister gave up with them by the time he was 4. He signs only.

Maybe it's something to do with differences between girls and boys? I don't know if it's a stereotype that girls are more hardwired to language or not but I have noticed among hearing kids that girls seem to start talking earlier than boy babies.

 

[shel90]

120db? Wow, that is a big loss. It must have been a big strain on you being raised orally with a loss like that. My nephew has a similar loss and he just got not benefit at all from hearing aids and my sister gave up with them by the time he was 4. He signs only.

Maybe it's something to do with differences between girls and boys? I don't know if it's a stereotype that girls are more hardwired to language or not but I have noticed among hearing kids that girls seem to start talking earlier than boy babies.

I dont know how I did it..how the heck did I acquire language? However, I do know that I missed out on a lot of it though. Oh well.

Anyways..yea, I noticed that among my students regarding the sex and language too. I remember reading a study about girls being more hardwired to language while boys with math or spatial vision.

No wonder that most of the hearing parents who are fluent signers are the mothers..(the ones that I meet in real life) and the fathers know maybe 20 signs.

 

[deafdyke]

Cloggy it is TOO early for you to speak out on this. You do not understand that the CI kids of today are functionally hoh............which is what I am, and what I grew up as. With my hearing aids I have very good hearing.....like i can hear the tv on downstairs, i can hear my voice.....i'm pretty much "almost hearing".......and this isn't due to new digital hearing aids.
CI kids are NOT experiancing something totally new, like the way hearing aided kids back when aids started becoming popular, were the first generation to hear. But just b/c I'm "almost hearing" it doesn't mean that I didn't experiance the downsides of hearing people trying to make me like hearing kids. Hearing aids and CIs don't provide 100% equality. They are good tools, but users of them still will never be able to be in the hearing world 100%. Hey, even UNILATERAL dhh kids often have to have speech therapy or need to use FM or preferential seating in the classroom. Some of them have often said they wish that they could have learned Sign and speechreading growing up.

 

[shel90]

Cloggy it is TOO early for you to speak out on this. You do not understand that the CI kids of today are functionally hoh............which is what I am, and what I grew up as. With my hearing aids I have very good hearing.....like i can hear the tv on downstairs, i can hear my voice.....i'm pretty much "almost hearing".......and this isn't due to new digital hearing aids.
CI kids are NOT experiancing something totally new, like the way hearing aided kids back when aids started becoming popular, were the first generation to hear. But just b/c I'm "almost hearing" it doesn't mean that I didn't experiance the downsides of hearing people trying to make me like hearing kids. Hearing aids and CIs don't provide 100% equality. They are good tools, but users of them still will never be able to be in the hearing world 100%. Hey, even UNILATERAL dhh kids often have to have speech therapy or need to use FM or preferential seating in the classroom. Some of them have often said they wish that they could have learned Sign and speechreading growing up.

Anyways, to remind u..Cloggy and his daughter knows signs. From my understanding, they are not using it now but I remember he has stated if Lotte wants to go back to signing, he fully supports her for that. I know we all forget that he has learned ASL as well as his other kids have done due to the way he talks about sign language.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[sr171soars]

...
Anyways..yea, I noticed that among my students regarding the sex and language too. I remember reading a study about girls being more hardwired to language while boys with math or spatial vision.

No wonder that most of the hearing parents who are fluent signers are the mothers..(the ones that I meet in real life) and the fathers know maybe 20 signs.

Yep, that is definitely true. Anecdotally, my daughter when 3 or 4 would talk like my wife at times and that was unnerving to me. Now, at 7 she is a little missus and it is only going to get worst (daddy is already finding out the power of language from girls ). On the other hand, my son (almost 10) is like most boys and I can hold my own with him...no problems Seriously, there is definitely a difference in boys and girls communication styles.