Some children who are born deaf recover from their deafness

Cloggy said:
Some?? Any numbers to back that up....

You might see a lot of children that did well and now thrive with ASL, but have you ever taken a look outside your school....????
It might be difficult to find these children that thrive with CI because they do not stick out, they do not have the problems that you see in your daily life...

Here in Norway, someone researched the first 100 children that got CI in Norway, and where they are now.
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Some..yes it is true. If it was all then we wouldnt have children who didnt benefit from CIs. Geez, u are making me sound like I am saying all are not successful. U need to accept that not all are successful just like I have accepted that not all are not successful. Until the day there will be 100% success for all children, I will continue to use the word "some".
 
shel90 said:

Some..yes it is true. If it was all then we wouldnt have children who didnt benefit from CIs. Geez, u are making me sound like I am saying all are not successful. U need to accept that not all are successful just like I have accepted that not all are not successful. Until the day there will be 100% success for all children, I will continue to use the word "some".
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Let me rephrase that...

I think I get what u mean Cloggy after thinking about why u made a big fuss about me using the word "some". I made it sound like a few successes when there are really more than that? Is that what u are referring to? If so, that's fine. If there are a lot of success stories, what word should I use? Many? What? We could have a different interpretation of the word "some". Who knows?

I am sure the day will come that there will be 100% success and I will be convinced that CIs are the answer but I still dont see that yet so my primary focus are those who didnt benefit from them just like I told Rick a while ago.

Really, I am getting a little tired of my words taken so way out of content and twisted. What's the big deal on how I use my words?

Yes, there are success stories

Yes, there are not so success stories.

That's a fact so what is the big deal? We just keep on doing what we think is the best for each group. Your focus is on the success group and mine is on the not successful group. I am here to educate about that group and how people's expectations of them really hurted them. Does that bother people that I do that? Cuz I am not gonna stop.
 
Yep, this is one problem with cochlear implants... and any other medical problems.

Sometimes, babies are born with at least one flaw... but eventually fix themselves or heal themselves.

However, people jump the gun too soon and try to fix it now... without ever knowing that it might have fixed itself later in the future.
 
deafdyke said:
Um so? That's the vison equalivant of surgery to correct conductive deafness. They can correct MANY eye conditions that can be corrected to 20/20 vision with glasses, but they still can't do that with conditions that cause blindness and low vision. (with the exception of cateracts, and some conditions that happen in adulthood)
jillo is right. My best friend is legally blind and he says that it's not really the disabilty that gives him problems..........its the way people treat him because of it. I'm deaf but SO what? I don't know what "normal" hearing is.........I am perfectly happy being hoh!
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:gpost: :gpost: :gpost: :gpost: :gpost:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
 
deafdyke said:
Um so? That's the vison equalivant of surgery to correct conductive deafness. They can correct MANY eye conditions that can be corrected to 20/20 vision with glasses, but they still can't do that with conditions that cause blindness and low vision. (with the exception of cateracts, and some conditions that happen in adulthood)
jillo is right. My best friend is legally blind and he says that it's not really the disabilty that gives him problems..........its the way people treat him because of it. I'm deaf but SO what? I don't know what "normal" hearing is.........I am perfectly happy being hoh!
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It is hard for people who have never had those disabilities to believe that people do fine with them with the right attitude from within themselves and from their support system.

I guess the perfect human is having all 5 senses, normal cognitive funtioning, all limbs are working, and disease free. Isnt what everyone wants? Then all of our problems will be solved? :whistle:

Ooopps I cant whistle cuz I am deaf. What a tragedy!!!!
 
shel90 said:

Some..yes it is true. If it was all then we wouldnt have children who didnt benefit from CIs. Geez, u are making me sound like I am saying all are not successful. U need to accept that not all are successful just like I have accepted that not all are not successful. Until the day there will be 100% success for all children, I will continue to use the word "some".
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But NOTHING in this world is 100%!!!

Even HEARING people don't hear 100%, so that's an unrealistic comparison.

There will always be deaf people who succeed, and deaf who fail...
CI-implanted people who succeed and fail...
Hearing people who succeed and fail....

Hearing itself is NOT a measure of how one will succeed in life. I mean heck - go to any hearing school and you'll see a bell curve of achievements - even though the students CAN hear!!!! If you are going to sit back and wait for this mythical 100% to appear you're going to wait a very long time.

You get what you put into it, but NOTHING in this world is ever 100% sure. After all, if it was, what would we have to strive for?
 
neecy said:
But NOTHING in this world is 100%!!!

Even HEARING people don't hear 100%, so that's an unrealistic comparison.

There will always be deaf people who succeed, and deaf who fail...
CI-implanted people who succeed and fail...
Hearing people who succeed and fail....

Hearing itself is NOT a measure of how one will succeed in life. I mean heck - go to any hearing school and you'll see a bell curve of achievements - even though the students CAN hear!!!! If you are going to sit back and wait for this mythical 100% to appear you're going to wait a very long time.

You get what you put into it, but NOTHING in this world is ever 100% sure. After all, if it was, what would we have to strive for?
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Umm... to sum it up

What you see is what you get!
 
Exactly, nozobo.

I like to say "you get OUT, equivalent to what you PUT IN" - if you don't work at it, you aren't gonna get anything. There really IS no such thing as a free lunch!
 
The hair cells not communicating with the auditory nerve sounds like auditory neuropathy, at least based on the definition of Auditory Neuropathy at Wikipedia

Auditory neuropathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Individuals with Auditory Neuropathy definitely have very different sets of test results than individuals with other sources for their hearing impairments. For starters, people with auditory neuropathy have normal oto accoustic emmission (OAE) tests, people with Connexin 26 or other forms of profound sensorineural loss do not. Also, people with Auditory Neuropathy have very different wave forms on the ABR tests. Finally -- auditory neuropathy is often associated with some very well known risk groups -- extreme prematurity, high bilirubin levels, CMV, and other neuropathy related disorders (HSAN II, Charcot-Marie-Tooth, Friedrich's Ataxia). One of the hallmarks of auditory neuropathy is that the loss can be (but isn't always) fluctuating.

I'm not a medical provider, but I think based on these clear differentiating factors that it is quite possible to determine whether the source of deafness for a profoundly deaf infant is auditory neuropathy, and then make decisions regarding implantation based on that diagnosis.

I'll also point out that based on the 700 appeals that I've handled in the past 18 months, that less than 2 percent of infants that I do appeals for have auditory neuropathy. It is not anywhere near the top 10 in causes for congenital hearing impairment.

Banjo said:
Some children who are born deaf recover from their deafness

This is something I've been concerned about for years due to the issues with hearing tests for babies not always being accurate. Now it turn out that there's a possibility that some babies are born deaf only to start hearing within a year or two.

So, how do one truly determine if a baby is deaf or not?
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neecy said:
But NOTHING in this world is 100%!!!

Even HEARING people don't hear 100%, so that's an unrealistic comparison.

There will always be deaf people who succeed, and deaf who fail...
CI-implanted people who succeed and fail...
Hearing people who succeed and fail....

Hearing itself is NOT a measure of how one will succeed in life. I mean heck - go to any hearing school and you'll see a bell curve of achievements - even though the students CAN hear!!!! If you are going to sit back and wait for this mythical 100% to appear you're going to wait a very long time.

You get what you put into it, but NOTHING in this world is ever 100% sure. After all, if it was, what would we have to strive for?
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Ok.

That wasnt my point but no worries. Thanks
 
Boult, not the same. I'm aware of the lens implants for formally sighted people. Just like with the dhh population, most blind and low vision people were once sighted. Most of the research and amelioaration is on that segment of the population. Sight amelioration for congnetially and early blinded kids and people really hasn't produced all that much sucessful results. Yes, some have regained some "sight", but this population is VERY hard to work with in terms of cure. There's even been medical literature written about it! Oliver Sacks even wrote about a guy(early blinded) who had surgery that would have allowed him to see normally. It worked, but not the way we think of as being sighted.

LTHA, that's interesting that AN doesn't appear to be that common. For some reason I had thought that it was pretty common.
Cloggy,
It might be difficult to find these children that thrive with CI because they do not stick out, they do not have the problems that you see in your daily life...
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Or maybe its b/c its too early to tell with those kids . CIs have been around for quite a while now. Maybe too, that some of the parents might be in denial about their kids' problems in the mainstream. Parents really are trained to idealize the "mainstream" ideal as some sort of utopia. There are kids who do pretty well with CI.........but how many of them never need speech therapy again? How many of them never need special educational services again? How many of them have significent social-emotional problems b/c of not fitting in? Even kids who do decently with picking up spoken language via hearing aids or CI still have SIGNIFICENT issues in those areas!
Ten and twenty years ago there were TONS of parents of "sucessfully" oral kids who thought that they were on the same track you are, with your daughter. Yet, where are those kids today? Shouldn't they be out there in HUGE numbers?
 
deafdyke said:
...........
Or maybe its b/c its too early to tell with those kids . CIs have been around for quite a while now. Maybe too, that some of the parents might be in denial about their kids' problems in the mainstream. Parents really are trained to idealize the "mainstream" ideal as some sort of utopia. There are kids who do pretty well with CI.........but how many of them never need speech therapy again? How many of them never need special educational services again? How many of them have significent social-emotional problems b/c of not fitting in? Even kids who do decently with picking up spoken language via hearing aids or CI still have SIGNIFICENT issues in those areas!
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"Parents really are trained to idealize the "mainstream" ideal as some sort of utopia."..... where does that come from???

Anyway.... if you are leaving out words connected with CI and deafness, your post would be about any child....
You don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, have emotional problems etc. You don't need to be deaf in order NOT to fit in...

deafdyke said:
...........
Ten and twenty years ago there were TONS of parents of "sucessfully" oral kids who thought that they were on the same track you are, with your daughter. Yet, where are those kids today? Shouldn't they be out there in HUGE numbers?
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Perhaps some of them became succesful CI users..... Might be worth setting up a pole... how many oral-raised vs asl-raised and their experience with CI.

But don't compare a succesful oral deaf child that cannot hear with a succesful deaf child that can here.... It's not the same!
 
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Cloggy said:
"Parents really are trained to idealize the "mainstream" ideal as some sort of utopia."..... where does that come from???

Anyway.... if you are leaving out words connected with CI and deafness, your post would be about any child....
You don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, have emotional problems etc. You don't need to be deaf in order NOT to fit in...

Perhaps some of them became succesful CI users..... Might be worth setting up a pole... how many oral-raised vs asl-raised and their experience with CI.

But don't compare a succesful oral deaf child that cannot hear with a succesful deaf child that can here.... It's not the same!
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No, you don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, however, the incidence of children who are deaf that receive speech therapy is disproportionate to the children who are not deaf who receive speech therapy. No, you do not have to be deaf to have emotional problems, however, being deaf, and in particular, being raised in a strictly oral environment while deaf, significantly increases the risk of developing such. No, you don't need to be deaf in order NOT tofit in, however, the incidence of adjustment problems in integrating into the wider hearing society is greater; not because of any characteristic inherent in deafness, but because of the social policies and attitudes of the wider hearing society regarding deafness. It is these inequities that I am concerned with, and I suggest that those posters who tend to agree with me are concerned with.
 
jillio said:
No, you don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, however, the incidence of children who are deaf that receive speech therapy is disproportionate to the children who are not deaf who receive speech therapy. No, you do not have to be deaf to have emotional problems, however, being deaf, and in particular, being raised in a strictly oral environment while deaf, significantly increases the risk of developing such. No, you don't need to be deaf in order NOT tofit in, however, the incidence of adjustment problems in integrating into the wider hearing society is greater; not because of any characteristic inherent in deafness, but because of the social policies and attitudes of the wider hearing society regarding deafness. It is these inequities that I am concerned with, and I suggest that those posters who tend to agree with me are concerned with.
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:gpost:, Jillo.

It's why so many deaf say they feel like they came home when they see fellow signers. With sign, you can comunicate easily with others who know sign.
 
"Parents really are trained to idealize the "mainstream" ideal as some sort of utopia."..... where does that come from???

Anyway.... if you are leaving out words connected with CI and deafness, your post would be about any child....
You don't need to be deaf to get speech therapy, have emotional problems etc. You don't need to be deaf in order NOT to fit in...
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Thanks jillo and deafskeptic!
Cloggy, that comes from my experiance growing up as a hoh kid. I'm also a sociologist. It facsinates me to analyze social phenonoma. A LOT of parents are subconsciously taught that there's something non stigmatic about "hearing and speaking" and having minimal accomondations and not having to use "special needs" stuff. MY parents went through that........hey, MANY MANY hearing and non special needs parents have gone through that. The stigma attached to "disabilty" is still very big.
And Cloggy, jillo is right. Virtually EVERY dhh kid (with the exception of unilaterally dhh) has to have speech and or language therapy. INCLUDING so called oral sucesses! MANY if not most dhh mainstreamed kids have significent emotional-social issues b/c they don't 100% fit in. They fit in somewhat..........but they are still VERY different...............and not in just a "general childhood or general various and sundry "misfit" issues way.
 
deafdyke said:
... How many of them have significent social-emotional problems b/c of not fitting in? Even kids who do decently with picking up spoken language via hearing aids or CI still have SIGNIFICENT issues in those areas! ...
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DD,

Well, firstly, what exactly is a "significant social-emotional problem" and then what is the factual basis for your allegation?
Rick
 
rick48 said:
DD,

Well, firstly, what exactly is a "significant social-emotional problem" and then what is the factual basis for your allegation?
Rick
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Rick, I am under the impression that you're trying to discount our experiences with struggling to fit with the hearing. It may that that this isn't the impression you wanted to give.

I realize that much of what we're trying to tell you is accedotional but I think our experience is just as valid as the set of data you want to see.

I'm no sociologist unlike DD but I'd guess that despression would be the most common outcome given all the stories that I've seen in the Deaf community. While I don't always like reading some of Sweetmind's angry posts, I can empathize with some of her experinces with the hearing. I've been there too. However, I'm not a bitter person. Many deaf raised orally - if not all - tend to become bitter as a result.

I must note here that I've met ony two CIers so I dunno if that's also true for many children with CIs. One clearly had deaf speech and couldn't speak on the phone and the other one that I met, I thought she was hearing at first till I saw her implant. I dunno about the data regarding CI'ers. I'd be interested in data provided by a third party which has no vested interest in implants, oralism or ASL.

Now I've had my share of the emotional-social problems but I believe this is more likely due to a family history of problems like being bipolor or depressed. My deafness just compounded the other problems.
 
rick48 said:
DD,

Well, firstly, what exactly is a "significant social-emotional problem" and then what is the factual basis for your allegation?
Rick
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I have to agree with Deafskeptic. You and Cloggy are actually pretty well informed and well involved as hearing parents go. You for example, have ensured that your daughter had access to support and other peers like her.

However, there are parents out there who have their deaf children in complete isolation, expecting them to completely assimilate and do not realise how lonely they are, unable to keep up with hearing large group conversations etc. This can lead to a lot of stress for the child over time and such children may feel that no one understands what it is like to be them.

I think its healthy for deaf kids to have access to others like them to share experiences, frustrations and laughs. I personally don't think it matters whether they are oral or not as long as they are able to share experiences. Kids never like to feel that they are the "only ones" like them. Adolescents in particular hate being different to the crowd.

This is why I feel that whatever communication approach a parent takes, a healthy two way relationship, where a child can tell their parent anything, is the way to go. The parent in turn needs to address any concerns and feelings seriously, rather than brush over the difficulties.
 
As a general principle, I would have to side with R2D2 and Deafskeptic. My perspective comes from being a very successful HOHer from the beginning. For all that, there were issues and struggles that goes with being a 'tweener and trying to "fit" somewhere in the world. As successful as I was, it still took me some twenty plus years to find a reasonable equilibrium!!!

Now if I had my CI (today's version) when I was a kid, what a difference that would have made for me growing up! So, I say it is directly proportional to one's ability plus tools (i.e., HA, CI, etc.) to the stress of being functional in the hearing world. This is a fancy way of saying the easier it is for one to hear in the world the less stress there is in keeping up with the hearing.
 
Thank you Deafskeptic and R2D2! That's exactly what I meant! In addition, a lot of times kids spend so much energy on oral language production, that they really don't have too much energy for the social-emotional area.
Rick, by social-emotional I mean things like interpersonal relationships.Sort of like what kids with(mild) Asperger's Syndrome or nonverbal learning disorders go through socially.....I mean GOD even kids who have pretty good language are often at a disadvantage since they may have a "deaf" voice. As a matter of fact, I have one of those. Although my language is wicked good (I have a VERY high verbal IQ), the quality of my voice isn't great. You have NO idea of the number of times people have assumed I'm retarded simply b/c my voice is so odd sounding. I talk like a Harvard professor, but there's still a HUGE number of people who can't get past the fact that I talk funny.
I also know that a lot of times social issues are a big topic at AG Bell conferences and things like that. I remember too reading in a book on methodologies from the library, that research suggested that oral kids did have significent social issues.
In addition, it is really frustrating to have to repeat yourself, or have people say "what? what? what?" all the time.

And yes, I know your daughter's done well socially, but everyone's an indivdual. Just b/c a small percentage of oral dhh kids have no problems with social issues, it doesn't mean that ALL dhh kids do. There are AG Bell superstars who are very high acheiving and go on to Harvard or another Ivy League college. That doesn't mean that EVERY oral kid is like that. God, I remember reading an overview of Auditory-Verbal, where Doreen Pollack yapped on and on and on about this one kid who spoke seven languages, who had also been raised auditory verbally. (and I believe this was back in the '60's) Just b/c ONE kid or some kids like that were super high achieving it doesn't mean that ALL kids will do as well.
 
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