So, will the deaf culture be there?

[Beowulf]

Or do they think you are one of the inbetweeners that they speeak of who are lost in both worlds.

If you put a crowd of people into a large room, with half of the crowd deaf and the other half hearing, eventually you will see two distinct groups. I will probably be in the middle.

 

[deafgal001]

If you put a crowd of people into a large room, with half of the crowd deaf and the other half hearing, eventually you will see two distinct groups. I will probably be in the middle.

That's how it goes.

 

[Passivist]

you are correct. My point is about communicating with any method or dialect. If you don't learn to communicate with the majority (whatever that is) then you are isolating yourself from communicatiion with anyone that does not use your mode of communication.

However this DOESN'T apply to deaf sign users ? they DON'T Have to communicate with Hearing ? even if they can talk or lip-read and sign ? Seems a bit of a one-way street. Protecting culture is a fine ideal but a refusal to integrate is hard to justify on my opinion, especially when sign is used as an valid opt out.... a conundrum here I think. That's the devil in the access detail, it goes both ways...

 

[GrendelQ]

Wirelessly posted

Just to be clear, TLC is very much bi-bi, was the first deaf school in MA to depart from the Oral tradition and become a pioneer in the Bi-Bi arena back in 1970. My daughter's auditory access program is new and the auditory aspects are contained, limited to the pilot group of early education kids enrolled. It doesn't impact the philosophy of the school or the quality and nature of deaf education provided to non-CI/HA kids (when my daughter is in gym, in ASL storytime, etc. -- roughly half her day -- her class is integrated with non-auditory kids and all communication is conducted in ASL).

Interesting. I thought the entire school had converted. What will happen as though kids become school age?

Exactly the question we're grappling with! If they continue to tailor the program to these kids' needs, fantastic! But we have no 2nd grade to look at as an example of how the curriculum is developed, the resources are being allocated. Scary, but lots of potential.

 

[rockdrummer]

However this DOESN'T apply to deaf sign users ? they DON'T Have to communicate with Hearing ? even if they can talk or lip-read and sign ? Seems a bit of a one-way street. Protecting culture is a fine ideal but a refusal to integrate is hard to justify on my opinion, especially when sign is used as an valid opt out.... a conundrum here I think. That's the devil in the access detail, it goes both ways...

Right and if they DONT then they have isolated themselves from communicating with anybody that does not use their mode of communication.

 

[Passivist]

Right and if they DONT then they have isolated themselves from communicating with anybody that does not use their mode of communication.

How else can hearing learn ? they won't all go to classes.... perhaps if some deaf were not walking around with huge chips on our shoulders... not all hearing are out to marginalise and oppress deaf people. In my daily life if I did NOT interact however I can with hearing I would suffer total isolation, because there are no deaf where I live... no interpreters to get, deaf pride will count for zero I'm afraid. That is not to say some hearing haven't tried to take advantage, but no more than if I was with deaf all the time... which I found a very limiting experience mostly... We have to be our own advocates, laws won't work, deaf awareness has never worked, and using others just puts up more barriers. It's down to you and me no-one else.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

you are correct. My point is about communicating with any method or dialect. If you don't learn to communicate with the majority (whatever that is) then you are isolating yourself from communicatiion with anyone that does not use your mode of communication.

Except in those countries where multiple dialects and languages is a barrier, they have a nationalized and unified writing system.

China? Zhongwen. Afghanistan? [written] Farsi.

 

[posts from hell]

I'm happy being oral. Now the question is.... does PFH (and others) think I'm one of those delusional people who rationalizes why it's better to grow up oral than Deaf?

Why does it have to be a question? If you are happy, it shouldn't matter what I or others think about you.

I've never seen any evidence of you being not happy thus far if you really wanted to know what my thoughts were.

BTW, I never said people were delusional.

and double BTW: I never said "all of them" I said about 80%. Thats 1 in 5 that is happy. I think I gave that a good sized leeway for the orals.

 

[deafdyke]

Sigh, why does everyone seem to harp on the small percentage of non orally skilled dhh?
Even with that population, it isn't always being seperatist. Some dhh kids cannot physically speak at ALL. (the same reason why you see kids who have other disabilites who Sign, due to things like tracheostomys, apraxia or CP) Those of us who are pro ASL, are simply advocating for a full toolbox! Meaning good speech therapy, Cued Speech, ESL techniques, and ASL access. NOT a hyperfocus on speech, speech and more speech. I mean why should life be an eternal speech therapy session after all?
And Grendel, I do think that Deaf Schools may have found something that could really help them survive, and even THRIVE! I do think one of the major reasons why many hearing parents drop TC or other sign based programs is b/c of concerns that there's not enough speech therapy. I think something like an early intervention/childhood program for dhh kids, where half the day is oral training and then half the day is Sign based would attract a lot of hearing parents and might even attract audilogically hoh kids to the fold!
Right on PFH.....there ARE oral only folks who are happy and don't really identify that much with Deafhood. Just like there are hoh kids who are "almost hearing" and except for a handful of basic signs are happy in the hearing world.....As I said I remember a few years ago we had a couple of 20 somethings whose parents had exposed them to both methodolgies. They both chose oral only!!!
Daredevil, I do think that it's possible to be happy and confortable in the hearing world, as an oral only adult. we're NOT saying it's impossible. Just very hard. I mean many oral sucesses say that they don't feel like they fit in with the hearing world (and I mean even many hoh people say that too) That plus it does seem that a lot of parents who chose oral only (I said ORAL ONLY....NOT oral training!) have a lot of psychological issues related to fully accepting their kid's hearing loss. That may have spilled over to the adult....have you noticed that a lot of oral deaf people seem to be preoccupied with a cure or be more HLAA style "hearing impaired?"

 

[deafgal001]

Do non-orally people bother you, deafdyke? deaf family choose to be that way by choice, you know.

 

[faire_jour]

I think something like an early intervention/childhood program for dhh kids, where half the day is oral training and then half the day is Sign based....

It is not oral training, for the THOSANDTH time. It is spoken English. It is a LANGUAGE, just like ASL. What if I said that bi-bi schools were nothing but sign training? Offensive, no?

 

[Hohtopics]

There is nothing wrong with preservation of culture as long as it is not by providing mis-information to do so.

Yes, that's when it becomes a stigma. That some may make their way of living to be more cracked up to be than it really is just so they could try to get more to go over to their side of the coin. It's a numbers game.

 

[jillio]

What do you mean by Assimilation by choice? Does that mean that it is not the freewill for us to have our own culture like Native Americans in all of the North America as many whites want us to change our ways like English and French languages, to get rid of our native culture, cut our hairs short, and dress like the white people's clothes. That is why I detest the word "assimilation" by forcing us to do away with what the white people want so that they can get rid of us and have the white people take over any old time they want.

It feel exactly what the deaf people have to put up with just to get rid of our defects if the flaws is not our own fault and what about other disability people like Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, blindness, and few other defects whether birth defect or late defect. We just want to be left alone without all the fuss of getting us to hear and speak in the normal oral way. They keep thinking that hearing aids and now CIs will make us hear clearly which is a BS.
Hearing people never know what is like to be deaf or hard of hearing. This is suppose to be our experiences of why we had to suffer under them. It just made me mad and I am sick of tire of hearing (reading) their excuses that CI or other cure will work perfectly. Our world is not perfect anyway, so what the big deal? :roll:

Normal people should accept us the way we are, not to change us exactly just like Native Americans. White people should not change us (Native Americans). If they don't want to get along with us just because we are different, then they should have gone back to wherever they came from many years ago. They had/have no right to control us as we were here first for many centuries.

Yes, basically. I mean that when someone chooses to embrace another culture and to adopt their values and way of life they assimilate by choice. But when the dominant culture makes it so difficult to live in their own culture--for instance, for instance, the Native American culture, by marginalizing the people and outlawing the use of their native language, etc, then they really haven't been given the choice to assimilate. They have to adopt the ways of the white man, to some degree, just to survive. That is a form of force.

 

[jillio]

I was forced into the hearing world full time without any exposure to the deaf world I didnt have a choice but to try my best to assimilate myself among my hearing peers and that backfired in a dead serious way.

That is what Jillio was referring to. Assimilation by force.

Exactly. You did not make the free choice to live in, and adopt the values and the customs of the hearing world.

 

[jillio]

That is what I got from that too.

And you were correct, also!

 

[jillio]

TLC is not a traditional bi-bi school. I would use the term "Dual language" rather than bi-bi since they provide immersive auditory language.

Also, our Deaf school is large for the population of our state. They supported a TC, bi-bi and oral program.

Sounds more like a TC program than a "dual language" program. BTW...bi-bi, by it's very nature, is a dual language program, as well as a dual culture program. What you have described is an allowance for different modes, not language. That is exactly what TC is all about. And, TC has been shown to provide a confusing linguistic environment that actually impedes fluency.

 

[jillio]

It is not oral training, for the THOSANDTH time. It is spoken English. It is a LANGUAGE, just like ASL. What if I said that bi-bi schools were nothing but sign training? Offensive, no?

Spoken language is oral. And since the focus is on the mode of orally producing language, it is, in effect, oral training. You are teaching a child to speak. Speaking is an oral activity. It is a mode of expressing the root language, which in this case happens to be English. English is the language, speaking is a mode. Spoken language is not a language in and of itself.

 

[shel90]

Spoken language is oral. And since the focus is on the mode of orally producing language, it is, in effect, oral training. You are teaching a child to speak. Speaking is an oral activity. It is a mode of expressing the root language, which in this case happens to be English. English is the language, speaking is a mode. Spoken language is not a language in and of itself.

That's what I have been trying to tell her. It is speech therapy but I'll bet the AVT therapists do not want to admit it.

 

[shel90]

I think some of it just stems from their being concerned about preserving their culture, not that there's anything wrong with it...

Nope..


just very concerned about deaf children's well being. Many of them end up with language delays and deficients and self-esteem issues all from trying to be hearing when they arent.

I have seen that too many times.

If exposed toboth, they can have that choice to remain in theDeaf culture or not. Since many of you advocate for choices when it comes to implanting children...why are you all against for giving children choices to both worlds?

 

[deafskeptic]

That's what I have been trying to tell her. It is speech therapy but I'll bet the AVT therapists do not want to admit it.

I think we'll repeat ourselves ad nauseum untill we turn blue in the face and pass out. :P