Shooting at WI Sikh temple leaves 7 dead.

Jiro said:
...Why would it be considered as a terrorism if he is a soldier? Believe it or not - he's still on payroll as US Army officer. Do we consider it as a terrorism if a soldier killed fellow soldiers? Remember Mark Kools aka Hasan Akbar? He was US Army sapper who killed 2 soldiers and wounded 14 soldiers with grenades and shooting. That's not terrorism. That's murders.
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Active duty military members are not exempt from terrorism charges.
 
I find it quite scary that Page was assigned to psychological operations unit. perhaps it might have messed up his head? :Ohno:

I'm not exactly sure what psychological operations unit is. I should contact my friend to inquire about since he had served in Fort Bragg.
 
Here is an example of what I am talking about (in regards to punk culture)


Death in June - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Much has been made of the origins of the name Death in June. It is sometimes considered to be an allusion to the Night of the Long Knives Sturmabteilung purge on June 30, 1934, or alternately to the 1914 assassination in Sarajevo that helped spark World War I. However, "Death in June" is actually a mondegreen, Pearce has said that he once misheard Patrick Leagas during a rehearsal and he "heard" it as "Death in June" and settled upon this chance mishearing. The group then subsequently applied it to the project in 1981. Pearce has stated that the name does not express any single idea for him and remains multifaceted.
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Symbolism and aesthetics

Death in June has always used symbolism, in lyrics and aesthetic approaches. Often these symbols are sometimes slightly modified European historical or ancestral symbols or point to general areas of time, with a small 6 applied.

[edit] Masks

According to Pearce, since its inception Death in June:


"[We] did not want to become a part of a normal rock 'n' roll thing. Pretty boys staring into the cameras with huge cocks and IQs of one million... It doesn't work like that."[5]

Since the early days of Death in June, the band would appear on stage wearing various masks and uniforms pertaining to the subject matters presented. The band shunned group photos, with very few ever taken, usually featuring the band masked or with their back to the camera.

In 1992, during a trip to Italy, Pearce encountered a unique mask at a carnival shop. Fans were so taken by the mask, it became iconic for Death in June. Pearce often wears the mask when playing live and it appears on various Death in June releases, most visibly on the live Something Is Coming double LP.

[edit] Camouflage

Specific varieties of camouflage are regularly worn by Pearce and appear on various Death in June releases. Most commonly, the variety of camouflage used is the German World War II Waffen SS autumnal Erbsenmuster/"pea pattern"[6] (usually on original items) though sometimes the modern Bundeswehr Flecktarn[7] or possibly the post-World War II Austrian fleckerlteppich[8] pattern is used.

The subject of camouflage has also appeared in the lyrics of Death in June, notably in the song "Hidden Among the Leaves", a reference to the Japanese Hagakure.





The Totenkopf-6.
[edit] Totenkopf-6

A slightly grinning skull, framed by a circle and a small 6 in the lower right corner. Death in June has, since at least the State Laughter / Holy Water 7″, used variations of the Prussian Totenkopf or "Death's Head" symbol. Pearce has stated repeatedly that the symbol is not an endorsement of extermination camp atrocities and the symbol far predates the Third Reich, having been used by the Prussian army under Frederick the Great. Although the particular version used by Death in June is a modified, faintly grinning version of the SS insignia, Pearce has stated the symbolism is clear: "The Totenkopf for Death, and the six for the sixth month - June." [9]
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Whether or not you think this is disgusting (and many people do) it does not equate to white supremacy.

It is a fashion staple of punk sub culture to use offensive symbols. It is part of their culture.
 
Reba said:
Active duty military members are not exempt from terrorism charges.
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right. but Hassan's action and Kools's action do not meet the legal definition of terrorism.

so what is considered as an act of terrorism for active duty military members?
 
Steinhauer said:
Here is an example of what I am talking about (in regards to punk culture)


Death in June - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whether or not you think this is disgusting (and many people do) it does not equate to white supremacy.

It is a fashion staple of punk sub culture to use offensive symbols. It is part of their culture.
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let's focus, shall we? this thread is about Wade Michael Page, not some punk culture or whatsoever. So focus on anything DIRECTLY related to Wade Michael Page.

Page was a skinhead band leader of End Apathy. So let's focus on that, shall we? Focus Focus Focus
 
Discography of a deranged mind: A killer and his music - Green Bay liberal | Examiner.com
What do we know about Wade Michael Page? We're awaiting official word from a press conference due to start in moments.

But we do know that Page fancied himself something of a musician. And a white supremacist record label in Linthicum, Maryland, liked his music enough to pay him to record it.

Label56 runs an independent record label. Odd thing. Most of their groups seem to be of the sort that play music known as hate rock. Groups like "Short Cropped" with songs titled "Feel the Anger, Feel the Hate" and "Drink, Fuck and Fight." Like "Enforcer" with tunes like "Gather Up Your Guns" and "Blood of the Martyrs."

Leading the pack at Label56? The group that seems to be their biggest money maker? A group called "End Apathy." Their leader? And angry man named Wade Michael Page. The Label56 website interviewed Page in April 2010 and asked him about the band's origins.

End Apathy began in 2005 and the concept was based on trying to figure out what it would take to actually accomplish positive results in society and what is holding us back. A lot of what I realized at the time was that if we could figure out how to end peoples apathetic ways it would be the start towards moving forward. Of course after that it requires discipline, strict discipline to stay the course in our sick society. So, in a sense it was view of psychology and sociology. But I didn’t want to just point the finger at what other people should do, but also I was willing to point out some of my faults on how I was holding myself back. And that is how I wrote the song “Self Destruct”.
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Well, it seems like Page finally got to the bottom of what was "holding him back."

The "indy" label's website lists a mailing address of Label 56 P.O.Box 172 Linthicum, MD 21090.

The press conference just started, and we'll add info as we hear it being shared.

"End Apathy" was not the sort of group you would likely want to book for your wedding. Songs like "Self Destruct," "Insignificant," "GCPC", "Usefull (sp) Idiots" and "Submission". The music is angry, the lyrics incomprehensible. They have five songs on their MySpace page, which you will have to look up yourself because we are not going to share the URL.

This hatred did not grow out of nothing. As the right wing scrambles and tries to hide from the cold, glaring light of truth, it can not escape the responsibility for the hatred that breeds people like Wade Michael Page.

This is not the sort of music, or artwork, or behavior that arises from progressives. This is the sort of hate that comes from constant reinforcement of racism, from right wing sources which shall remain nameless that confirm in these people that their hatred is justified, that their fears of being overrun by "the brown people" are real, that the "Kenyan pretender" in the White House is going to come and steal their penises -- sorry, we mean, their guns -- while responsible Republican leaders turn a blind eye and a deaf ear towards the hatred being spewed by members of their own caucuses.
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Who was Sikh temple shooter Wade Michael Page?
Heidi Beirich, director of the center's intelligence project, tells the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that her group had been tracking Page since 2000, when he tried to purchase goods from the National Alliance, a well-known hate group.

Beirich says there was "no question" Page was an ardent follower and believer in the white supremacist movement. She said her center had evidence that he attended "hate events" around the country.

"He was involved in the scene," she said.
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Wade was killed outside the temple in a shootout with police officers after the rampage. CBS, citing unnamed sources, says evidence suggests race or ethnicity may have played a role in the violence, but no links to extremist groups have been confirmed.
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Jiro said:
let's focus, shall we? this thread is about Wade Michael Page, not some punk culture or whatsoever. So focus on anything DIRECTLY related to Wade Michael Page.

Page was a skinhead band leader of End Apathy. So let's focus on that, shall we? Focus Focus Focus
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Well, Jiro, I am focusing. You see ... the MSM is indicating that Wade Michael Page was a member of a far right punk rock band.

So, the information I provided is ..... wow ... about punk rock bands. If you cannot see the link between the two, then I can't help explain it any further.

BTW, you do not have to ask your friend who is at Fort Bragg when the info you seek is publicly available:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_(United_States)

So, how then, are those two things related? :hmm:
 
Jiro said:
right. but Hassan's action and Kools's action do not meet the legal definition of terrorism.

so what is considered as an act of terrorism for active duty military members?
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The same as for civilians. It depends on who has jurisdiction over the area that is attacked.

The difference being that additional UCMJ charges can be made against military members.
 
Steinhauer said:
Well, Jiro, I am focusing. You see ... the MSM is indicating that Wade Michael Page was a member of a far right punk rock band.

So, the information I provided is ..... wow ... about punk rock bands. If you cannot see the link between the two, then I can't help explain it any further.
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but we're not concerned with punk rock bands since they had nothing to do with this shooting.

Steinhauer said:
BTW, you do not have to ask your friend who is at Fort Bragg when the info you seek is publicly available:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_(United_States)
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because I'd like a reliable firsthand information from a person rather than from wikipedia and also what was his experience and thought about it :)

Steinhauer said:
So, how then, are those two things related? :hmm:
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why don't you enlighten me?
 
Reba said:
The same as for civilians. It depends on who has jurisdiction over the area that is attacked.

The difference being that additional UCMJ charges can be made against military members.
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do you understand now why Hassan's shooting wasn't an act of terrorism, Steinhauer?
 
Jiro said:
This hatred did not grow out of nothing. As the right wing scrambles and tries to hide from the cold, glaring light of truth, it can not escape the responsibility for the hatred that breeds people like Wade Michael Page.

This is not the sort of music, or artwork, or behavior that arises from progressives. This is the sort of hate that comes from constant reinforcement of racism, from right wing sources which shall remain nameless that confirm in these people that their hatred is justified, that their fears of being overrun by "the brown people" are real, that the "Kenyan pretender" in the White House is going to come and steal their penises -- sorry, we mean, their guns -- while responsible Republican leaders turn a blind eye and a deaf ear towards the hatred being spewed by members of their own caucuses.
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Like you posted, let's focus. The above has nothing to do with the killer. It's a blatant opinion piece political slam (not allowed at AD).
 
Jiro said:
do you understand now why Hassan's shooting wasn't an act of terrorism, Steinhauer?
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I didn't say it wasn't an act of terrorism. I said it's up to the jurisdiction that makes the charges. The military wanted to make it a charge of terrorism but the Feds (DOJ) refused.
 
Reba said:
Like you posted, let's focus. The above has nothing to do with the killer. It's a blatant opinion piece political slam (not allowed at AD).
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you just cut out first half. that had to do with the killer.
 
Fresh start.

If anyone wants to discuss the killer, please stick to facts that directly pertain to him and not all kinds of political or music movements.

I'm still looking for more information about the victims so they can get equal time.
 
Reba said:
I didn't say it wasn't an act of terrorism. I said it's up to the jurisdiction that makes the charges. The military wanted to make it a charge of terrorism but the Feds (DOJ) refused.
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refused or did not find?

either way - it doesn't matter. I'll stick with the facts.
 
Jiro said:
but we're not concerned with punk rock bands since they had nothing to do with this shooting.


because I'd like a reliable firsthand information from a person rather than from wikipedia and also what was his experience and thought about it :)


why don't you enlighten me?
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Sure, I can do that. You had previously asked about why Page was involved in Psychological Operations while in the Army. You mentioned you should probably ask your friend at Fort Bragg about what that was.

I wouldn't split hairs, but since you are claiming that I am not focusing on the thread at hand, by mentioning information about Punk Rock Bands, I felt compelled to mention that if you feel this way, then perhaps you should not have mentioned anything about Psychological Operations - which is not about Page at all.

Do you see how two different, and seperate subjects (i.e. The shooter and Psychological Operations) are related to this thread?

Do you see how two different, but seperate subjects (i.e. Page and Punk Rock bands) are related to this thread?

I would think that most competent people could see the connection.
 
Steinhauer said:
"Back then" we had internet, computers, mass media, etc. We also had crazy people who decisded to go on shooting sprees. I readily recall the beltway sniper(s). I also recall that officials were looking for a white dude in a white van and were completely shocked to find a Muslim.

Now, the MSM is claiming that Wade Micheal Page is a white supremacist because he used to sing in a "far right, white supremacist, punk rock band". Is there ven such a thing? I mean, that is like saying he was a Gay Republican.

What if he is a far left liberal that supports gay marriage and believed the Sikhs were hateful? What if he is a far left liberal that thought they were Muslims?

Does it matter? Why didn't the MSM point out that the Aurora shooter was a far left liberal Obama supporter OWS protester but very eager to paint this man as far right white supremacist?

It get s old after a while.

Why is the media so eager to paint any shooter as a far right wing nut? We simply do not know the motivation behind the shooting - and yes, it is all speculation.

Wade Michael Page, military veteran, identified as Sikh temple shooter - The Washington Post
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Oh wow, I found your post to be ill informed. :barf:

Reba is correct about political discussion isn't allowed. :aw:
 
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