Selective abortion.

[Hermes]

First of all, this is not a website attempting to sell a 3-D scanner. This is an article discussing the use of the 3-D scanner.

Go to post I gave you the link. There are 3 links. You didnt check it yet.

Do you even know why the 3-D scanner was developed? It was developed to provide more accurate images of fetuses so that gross malformation and birth defects could be detected earlier. It is also used for intauterine surgery to correct some birth defects that are correctable in the womb. Further, the earlier that we are able to detect gross malformation, especially that which is incpmpatible with life, the earlier the woman is able to choose whether to continue with, or end the preganancy. This devise was developed to permit that to happen.

Its showing the pictures. What does it have to do with why the device is developed. You are just trying to win an argument.

No matter ow many heroic measures are taken, a 12 week old fetus cannot, under any circumstances, survive outside the womb. Therefore, it is dependent upon the woman's body for survival until that time in which it becomes viable.

A 25 week-30 week gestational age means that the woman is in the 3rd trimester of her preganancy. Even therapuetic abortions doen to save the life of a mother are very, very rarely done at this point in gestation. There is a HUGE difference between a 12 week gestational aged fetus and a gestational age of 25 weeks. Check a biology book, for Heaven's sake.

We are in selective abortion thread. Late stage abortions are part of it. You are confusing the threads. This thread is not limited to first stage of abortion. Once again you are just trying to win the argument and take the subject where you are comfortable to argue it.

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[Jiro]

When you tell me you could have taken your own daughters remainings in your own hands after her abortion. Face with her. I will buy all your hypothetical arguments that are only using a definition from here, an idea from there.

We can discuss it all day and night. Are you up to face with it in real life? Not as a concept. Can you use your own hands for this?

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and.....? Why are you attempting to stir this up with emotional scenario? Who said this is an easy decision? Why don't I demonstrate my gun rights to anti-gunner? I'll ask him to walk down the dangerous dark street with no gun and see if he's up to face with it in real life. See if he really cares about other life. Why don't we let PETA/vegetarians take us meat-eaters to slaughter house and watch the cow/pig/sheep being slaughtered for our food?

Your statement is fallacious and ludicrous. Please, for the sake of debate, come up with scientific papers to defend your position - not some emotional sob what-if story.

 

[jillio]

I am not against aborting the embryo itself at the first stage. Abortion is not limited to that though. They allow it until 24th week, we are discussing here 30th week abortion for disable babies. I am posting 3 pictures . They are from 20 weeks, 25 weeks, and 30 weeks (from up to down). Please put all names a side. It doesnt matter if we call it fetus or baby or human. Look at what you are seeing. This is not a little embryo, what you see can not be taken out of woman's body in one piece. Please read how a doctor describes the operation that takes place after 12th week:

So Jillo, Jiro, Jolie, (I am calling your names because I know you, I am not doing it for targeting you) you are all saying this option should be given to mothers . But all these arguments sound like academic discussions. They are based on concepts, definitions, we make it sound like its about democracy, its about defending the freedom. Lets say you have this freedom (which you have), which one of you can really go through it if they were going to give you remainings of the baby after abortion , so you could bury? Jillo, Jolie, you both have kids. Look at these pictures. If they were your daughters, which one you could be there and see their body on the table? Look into their eyes. They have eyes , you see it? It is easy (well not really, but relatively) when a woman goes to clinic and sleeps for couple hours during the operation and comes back home with no baby inside. She doesnt think (or tries not to think) on what really happens there. But how many people can really face the reality. See it, touch it, carry it, bury it?

I think you should go to a clinic and ask permission for watching an abortion. You should take this fetus , baby whatever you want to call it and carry it yourself where they dump it . You should put your hands onto it , and then decide for yourself . Only then you can really make a choice, and it becomes a conscious choice. But please dont turn this into an intellectual argument where the textbook definitions are more important than actual reality. If he doesnt look like a baby in the pictures, if the doctor sounds like lying, go to a clinic and watch it, touch it yourself. See what it looks like, see if he can bleed, see what happens to him.

I think abortion should be allowed, but they should require mothers to watch one abortion operation before their own and also they should give their own babies remanings to them so parents can bury him. Anybody who can face with reality of their actions should be allowed to have abortion.

Then women can make conscious choices on how to practice safe sex, or at what stage of pregnancy they will go to clinic or how they will keep the baby and raise it. Then it would really be their choice and they would live with it. Then we can talk about "choice"..

I am not against freedom , if you have read my other posts in AD you would notice that. Have all the freedom you want and make a choice. I just want you to face with the choice. Not here on AD as a intellectual argument one's logic will beat the other, but in real life as an actual , undeniable reality. What ever you choose afterwards, I respect that.


Hermes


(Mod's Edit: inappropriate images are removed)

I am adding links to images that show 20-25-30 weeks ultrasounds as requested. These are the pictures of alive, healthy babies in the womb , they should be considered happy moments , but if its considered inappropriate , I wont argue over it.. Please view and see for yourself.

http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/e1/c7/47_2.JPG

http://i7.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/77/c6/561d_1_sbl.JPG

http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/db/15/d7_1_sbl.JPG

You do have a knack for diverting an issue with unrelated emotional appeal, I'll give you that. But it doesn't make your argument any less fallicious.

 

[Cheri]

Again,f allicous argument, the favorite tactic of the anti-abortionists.

he made alot of valid points, You just couldn't come up with a good answer. It's your loss.

 

[jillio]

and.....? Why are you attempting to stir this up with emotional scenario? Who said this is an easy decision? Why don't I demonstrate my gun rights to anti-gunner? I'll ask him to walk down the dangerous dark street with no gun and see if he's up to face with it in real life. See if he really cares about other life. Why don't we let PETA/vegetarians take us meat-eaters to slaughter house and watch the cow/pig/sheep being slaughtered for our food?

Your statement is fallacious and ludicrous. Please, for the sake of debate, come up with scientific papers to defend your position - not some emotional sob what-if story.

Well said.

 

[jillio]

he made alot of valid points, You just couldn't come up with a good answer. It's your loss.

Do you even know what a fallicous argument is?

I kept my answer short, because a fallicious argument doesn't need to be refuted. By nature, it iinvalidates itself.

 

[Hermes]

A abortion done in the third trimester is only legal when carrying the pregnancy to term would result in probable death. Even then, after 25 weeks, the fetuses are usually delivered by inducing labor and delivering them pre-term. A 30 week old fetus would be aborted only if it has died in utero, ir if it is so grossly malformed that the deformities are imcompatible with life.

Really, you need to get your facts straight, and not post such misleading and innaccurate starements if you wish your arguments to have any credibility at all.

Are you saying 20th weeks of abortion is illegal? I thought it was 24. And once again, we are in selective abortion thread. Late abortions are part of it.

Exactly!

Do you want to discuss what a parasite is? Start a new thread. I am all up for it.

 

[Jiro]

Go to post I gave you the link. There are 3 links. You didnt check it yet.

Its showing the pictures. What does it have to do with why the device is developed. You are just trying to win an argument.

We are in selective abortion thread. Late stage abortions are part of it. You are confusing the threads. This thread is not limited to first stage of abortion. Once again you are just trying to win the argument and take the subject where you are comfortable to argue it.

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No you are trying to win the argument with some fallacious statements and morbid moral issues. You ignored the Roe v. Wade case. You ignored Supreme Court's decision. You ignored medical and scientific community's stance and findings on this. All you have is your emotional and moral appeal on your side.

Ever wonder why Supreme Court ruled in favor of Roe?

 

[Cheri]

A abortion done in the third trimester is only legal when carrying the pregnancy to term would result in probable death.

You wish to believe that, you don't have a clue woman. I had an abortion at 5 months and no the baby wasn't dead either.

Really, you need to get your facts straight, and not post such misleading and innaccurate starements if you wish your arguments to have any credibility at all.

It's the fact, you can't say it's not the fact when it never happened to you. walk the walk; don't just talk the talks.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

You wish to believe that, you don't have a clue woman. I had an abortion at 5 months and no the baby wasn't dead either.



It's the fact, you can't say it's not the fact when it never happened to you. walk the walk; don't just talk the talks.

That the second trimester.

1-3 - first trimester
4-6- second trimester
7-9- third trimester.

 

[Hermes]

and.....? Why are you attempting to stir this up with emotional scenario? Who said this is an easy decision? Why don't I demonstrate my gun rights to anti-gunner? I'll ask him to walk down the dangerous dark street with no gun and see if he's up to face with it in real life. See if he really cares about other life. Why don't we let PETA/vegetarians take us meat-eaters to slaughter house and watch the cow/pig/sheep being slaughtered for our food?

Because its the way of facing the reality. We can discuss anything we want to here all day long. I can give you very logical reasons why we should kill half of the world population. Its all easy while just creating ideas and battling logic. The reality is outside. There is no hiding behind words there. When you go through it, it doesnt matter what its called or how its defined in a book. Talking about killing a man is very different than doing it by your own hands.

Your statement is fallacious and ludicrous. Please, for the sake of debate, come up with scientific papers to defend your position - not some emotional sob what-if story.

You want to keep the argument at a hypothetical level so you can free yourself from whats going on in real life. Thats like eating the beef but not asking where the cow is coming from. Everything is ok as long as we are not touching the dirty work. I came up with facts. I showed pictures, I showed descriptions of abortion, I responded the claim fetus being a parasite. There are links, definitions, and pictures in my posts.

I understand it. You value the freedom as a concept. But I still didnt get the answer. Can you do the dirty job? Or is this freedom only good on paper for you?

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[jillio]

You wish to believe that, you don't have a clue woman. I had an abortion at 5 months and no the baby wasn't dead either.



It's the fact, you can't say it's not the fact when it never happened to you. walk the walk; don't just talk the talks.

No, dear, it is very obvious that you don't have a clue. What I claim can be substantiated and is a widely accepted viewpoint. It is the one on which the laws were formed, and you have absolutely nothing to refute it.

We are not discussing your situation here, because when you bring it up, and it gets discussed, you get overly emotional and unreasonable.

A fetus aborted at 5 months does not survive on its own because it is incapable of doing so. Nor is 5 months gestational age the third trimester. Infact, if you want to get specific, you need to cite the gestational age in weeks, not months.

 

[jillio]

Because its the way of facing the reality. We can discuss anything we want to here all day long. I can give you very logical reasons why we should kill half of the world population. Its all easy while just creating ideas and battling logic. The reality is outside. There is no hiding behind words there. When you go through it, it doesnt matter what its called or how its defined in a book. Talking about killing a man is very different than doing it by your own hands.



You want to keep the argument at a hypothetical level so you can free yourself from whats going on in real life. Thats like eating the beef but not asking where the cow is coming from. Everything is ok as long as we are not touching the dirty work. I came up with facts. I showed pictures, I showed descriptions of abortion, I responded the claim fetus being a parasite. There are links, definitions, and pictures in my posts.

I understand it. You value the freedom as a concept. But I still didnt get the answer. Can you do the dirty job? Or is this freedom only good on paper for you?

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You will be facing reality when you actually post some realistic facts that are pertinent to the topic. If anyone has taken this discussion to a purely hypothetical position, it is the anti-abortionists who post emotion and morals, and continually refer to "what if" situations rather that actual supported scientific and medical evidence.

 

[Cheri]

No, dear, it is very obvious that you don't have a clue. What I claim can be substantiated and is a widely accepted viewpoint. It is the one on which the laws were formed, and you have absolutely nothing to refute it.

We are not discussing your situation here, because when you bring it up, and it gets discussed, you get overly emotional and unreasonable..

I can discuss my situation here if I wishes to, if you don't like it, put me on ignored. I do have a clue, I've experienced it, and you haven't. If you trust in the system, the lawmakers, the abortionists, that's your business. But, don't tell anyone that their facts aren't straight.

 

[Byrdie714]

There is no scientific consensus on this. A fetus doesnt act in parasitism at all. Its not an alien organism invading the host. Its created by the host. It doesnt harm the host. The host actually contains an internal system (womb) for carrying the very organism it creates from its own DNA. Are you sure an organism carries your very own DNA, created in you and growing in a place designed to support it in your own body can be called parasite? If you are so fascinated by definitions, there you have it:

Parasitism.
1: the behavior of a parasite
2: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds ; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures

I feel like there lies an emotional reason behind trying to label bodies own creation as a parasite. Yes there are some people who try classfying fetus as a parasite. Its just a scientific speculation that disregards many other known behavior's of parasites in nature and only focuses one individual line of the defination of an organism living in or on another organism.

I dont see your point of bringing a speculative idea into this topic. Are you trying to say if you label fetus as a parasite you can kill it anytime you want to as long as its in the womb?

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Parasites are known to injure the host. In this case, a fetus can injure the host.

Incorrect assumptions. Byrdie carries the ability to sustain independent life. He is able to breathe, to take nourishment, his cardiovascular system functions independent of the woman who gave birth to him, and he is not dependent upon a physical connection to another human being for said functions. A fetus does not have that capability. The fetus is not a separate living organism until it has been detached from the woman via the cut umbilical cord.

Exactly!

BTW....I've noticed that the abortion threads were quiet for the longest time and now....everyone is jumping on the bandwagon again.

Why the lull in not debating this issue for awhile and then 'flare up' again? :roll:

 

[jillio]

I can discuss my situation here if I wishes to, if you don't like it, put me on ignored. I do have a clue, I've experienced it, and you haven't. If you trust in the system, the lawmakers, the abortionists, that's your business. But, don't tell anyone that their facts aren't straight.

Then go ahead and discuss it. Just don't go off on a rage when you get corrected or questioned on your claims. You put yourself out there, then you make yourself subject to scrutinization. So discuss away, if that is your choice. Just make sure that you are woman enough to accept the consequences of your actions.

 

[Byrdie714]

I can discuss my situation here if I wishes to, if you don't like it, put me on ignored. I do have a clue, I've experienced it, and you haven't. If you trust in the system, the lawmakers, the abortionists, that's your business. But, don't tell anyone that their facts aren't straight.

Then go ahead and discuss it. Just don't go off on a rage when you get corrected or questioned on your claims. You put yourself out there, then you make yourself subject to scrutinization. So discuss away, if that is your choice. Just make sure that you are woman enough to accept the consequences of your actions.

Cheri--I like you and I would tread very carefully....

 

[Hermes]

No you are trying to win the argument with some fallacious statements and morbid moral issues. You ignored the Roe v. Wade case. You ignored Supreme Court's decision. You ignored medical and scientific community's stance and findings on this. All you have is your emotional and moral appeal on your side.

Ever wonder why Supreme Court ruled in favor of Roe?

Please show me where I said NO to abortion? I say do it if you can really face with it. Just dont try to avoid whats really going on.

There is always a moral side of it when it comes to killing something, let it be a person, an animal, or just killing the planet. Do you want to seperate yourself totally from morality? And can you really do that in real life? Not in words, but in actions?

Also I never said anything about first stage, right? I said embryo is not the baby itself yet. But this is selective abortion thread which is also talking about going through abortion at later stages.

For example if parents learn their child is disabled (no not going to die, just disabled, will live like you do) and if they are emberassed of having a disabled kid, selectively aborting it is part of this discussion.

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[jillio]

Parasites are known to injure the host. In this case, a fetus can injure the host.



Exactly!

BTW....I've noticed that the abortion threads were quiet for the longest time and now....everyone is jumping on the bandwagon again.

Why the lull in not debating this issue for awhile and then 'flare up' again? :roll:

Sarah Palin and the conservative right.

 

[Jiro]

Please show me where I said NO to abortion? I say do it if you can really face with it. Just dont try to avoid whats really going on.

There is always a moral side of it when it comes to killing something, let it be a person, an animal, or just killing the planet. Do you want to seperate yourself totally from morality? And can you really do that in real life? Not in words, but in actions?

then why show us pictures and come up with fallacious statement like - why don't you go and touch it? That doesn't sound like pro-choice. It makes me laugh when a person claim to be pro-choice but have a heavy pro-life view. Such a confused person....

It's as fallacious as a person saying "Don't want a baby? don't spread your legs."

Also I never said anything about first stage, right? I said embryo is not the baby itself yet. But this is selective abortion thread which is also talking about going through abortion at later stages.

For example if parents learn their child is disabled (no not going to die, just disabled, will live like you do) and if they are emberassed of having a disabled kid, selectively aborting it is part of this discussion.

That's up to them. Should a mother be able to abort her fetus because she will never be able to provide her child with a good life? Some people don't have any faith in system (foster, adoption, orphan house, etc.) and are terrified for their well-beings being at hands of strangers who could end up abusing or selling them.