Selective abortion.

[Byrdie714]

and that's why Supreme Court ruled in favor of abortion. It's a win-win for all. Imposing one's belief for all is un-American.

Exactly.

If you don't like abortions--simple.....don't have one.

 

[Hermes]

You should know that in the field of Science, emotion isn't involved.

Logic is.

This is an area where you and others are allowing yourself to be clouded.

There is no scientific consensus on this. A fetus doesnt act in parasitism at all. Its not an alien organism invading the host. Its created by the host. It doesnt harm the host. The host actually contains an internal system (womb) for carrying the very organism it creates from its own DNA. Are you sure an organism carries your very own DNA, created in you and growing in a place designed to support it in your own body can be called parasite? If you are so fascinated by definitions, there you have it:

Parasitism.
1: the behavior of a parasite
2: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds ; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures

I feel like there lies an emotional reason behind trying to label bodies own creation as a parasite. Yes there are some people who try classfying fetus as a parasite. Its just a scientific speculation that disregards many other known behavior's of parasites in nature and only focuses one individual line of the defination of an organism living in or on another organism.

I dont see your point of bringing a speculative idea into this topic. Are you trying to say if you label fetus as a parasite you can kill it anytime you want to as long as its in the womb?

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[Hermes]

and that's why Supreme Court ruled in favor of abortion. It's a win-win for all. Imposing one's belief for all is un-American.

Did you read my post : http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/56700-selective-abortion-9.html#post1095103

I am all for abortion as long as you are going to face with the remainings of the baby after you abort it. I am not imposing a belief. I am saying go to real life , witness it, touch it, feel it for real. It will actually be very helpful to see who you really are in your own heart.

I am supporting your freedom to experience it and know yourself very strongly.

I have got not problems with your choice and freedom.

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[Jiro]

Did you read my post : http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/56700-selective-abortion-9.html#post1095103

I am all for abortion as long as you are going to face with the remainings of the baby after you abort it. I am not imposing a belief. I am saying go to real life , witness it, touch it, feel it for real. It will actually be very helpful to see who you really are in your own heart.

I am supporting your freedom to experience it and know yourself very strongly.

I have got not problems with your choice or freedom.

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And I'm sure you're aware that this is a very difficult decision for woman - something that they have to live with for rest of our life. Yes touch it, witness it, feel it but what's missing is - you do not see the consequence and toll it may have in the future. If the baby is unwanted.... the future is bleak for him/her. If the baby is disabled and mother feels she cannot provide sufficient needs for it.... the future is very bad for him/her... so on.

I'm very against leaving my child to the state. I have no faith in the system.

 

[jillio]

Okay... One thing come up from my mind...

If a disabled/sick child is more work harder than a 'normal' child... What kind of a society are we creating by aborting off sick or disabled human beings? If we abort the sick/disabled human being instead of attempting to cure the sickness or support & assistance disability needs, then what is the point of hospitals?


It's just my POV as a random post...

Some birth defects cause such extensive deformity and abnormalities that they are completely incompatible with life. To attempt to treat or cure these abnormalities would be impossible.

The purpose of hospitals is manyfold, but they are for treating illness. A fetus with gross malformation incompatible with life is not sick.

 

[jillio]

If the sick or disabiled human being is beyond repair or help, you'd think it is best to force the human being to be alive - remain in the dark, in constant pain, and in captivity? The ultimate right from being human is to be able to have choices and to make decisions. At this point, that right is not respected and is removed because of religion, politics, or projectioning. What kind of society considers this? A compassionate one.


You go into a hospital, expecting to come out, right? You don't go to the hospital expecting to stay. That's the point of hospitals (for me).

Exactly! I din't see your post before I replied, but I said much the same thing. Even end of life care is being done more and more in hospand to hospice environments, not hospitals. If a patient chronically debilitated to the point of needing 24/7 care, they are transferred to a total care facility, or a "nursing home". Hospitals are meant to treat illness of a critical nature, to perform surgery (more and more on an out patient basis), and to treat traumatic injury.

 

[jillio]

It looks like a baby to me.

How, exactly, was this photograph taken? I suspect some photoshopping going on. Not unusual with the anti-abortion crowd.

Also, please provide a link that will validate the gestational age.

 

[jillio]

No.

It's not a "baby" until it's detached from the host.

Exactly. And even then, the technical term is neonate. Which broken down, means "newly born".

 

[jillio]

unfortunately.... as agreed and officially recognized by the majority... and by medical and scientific community..... and by government..... and by Supreme Court that the fetus does not have any legal rights and is not recognized as a person with legal rights. A 5 years old child is recognized as a living person with legal rights. Killing him would result in criminal charge - a murder - as defined by law. Abortion is not a murder as stated by law.

However - if that disabled child is on life support machine.... you as the parents have legal rights to decide on his/her fate.

Parents are not permitted to kill a baby because it is disabled. However, they are permitted the medical choice of abortion.

 

[jillio]

There are disabled people that are functioning well in this society but the fact is that it all boils down to a woman's decision, not yours or mine. If the woman is ready to raise a disabled child and believes he'll be productive, then what rights do we have to tell them otherwise?

Again, an aborted fetus is not going anywhere. It's gone for good. Move on.

 

[jillio]

Legal rights are not the issue. Couple hundred years ago some people didnt have legal rights either because of their color . It was legal to kill them as long as you own them. It was the same argument. My slave, my choice.

Leave the laws aside, share your own thoughts and feelings. Laws change from time to time , period to period. There is no need to hide behind them. You see that egg becomes a real baby after a while. Its not much different than a 5 months old or 5 years old . You see it. Now knowing this, are you granting parents right to kill their kids if it was up to you?

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Legal rights are exactly the issue. The law states that a woman is legally entitled to make a medical decision regarding her reproductive health under specific circumstances. The problem is, you are attempting to use a moral argument against a legal right.

Comparing the situation regarding enslaved persons is a fallicious argument. When you are talking about slaves, you are talking about people that under the law, have achieved personhood by having been born and sustained life independent of the woman. A fetus has not done so, nor is it capableof doing so. You cannot comapre the two, and the only ones who attempt to do so are those that cannot differentiate between legality and morality.

 

[netrox]

I asked this question before and no one was able to answer: what if the man wants it and the woman doesn't? Should she be inconvenienced to carry it full term for the man or abort it?

Then he got a wrong woman!

 

[Hermes]

How, exactly, was this photograph taken? I suspect some photoshopping going on. Not unusual with the anti-abortion crowd.

Also, please provide a link that will validate the gestational age.

I posted it and provided link too..

Please go to this post. There are links to 3 pictures 20-25-30 weeks in the womb at the very bottom.The pictures are not taken from an abortion website. They are from a product page where they are trying to sell their ultrasound scanner and providing this images as samples. You can see they are posted on ebay, since its a company using ebay shop.

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/56700-selective-abortion-9.html#post1095103

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[jillio]

Lets argue it. What makes you a human being? You carry all the features of human, right? That unborn baby carries it too. You are a separate living organism. That baby is a separate living organism too, but still grows in her mother. If you could provide her same conditions you could take her out of her mothers womb and let her grow outside.

Please help me to understand , its not a baby a day before she was born but it is a day after. What exactly is the difference? And please provide a real difference, not a textbook definition.

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Incorrect assumptions. Byrdie carries the ability to sustain independent life. He is able to breathe, to take nourishment, his cardiovascular system functions independent of the woman who gave birth to him, and he is not dependent upon a physical connection to another human being for said functions. A fetus does not have that capability. The fetus is not a separate living organism until it has been detached from the woman via the cut umbilical cord.

 

[jillio]

I posted it and provided link too..

Please go to this post. There are links to 3 pictures 20-25-30 weeks in the womb at the very bottom.The pictures are not taken from an abortion website. They are from a product page where they are trying to sell their ultrasound scanner and providing this images as samples. You can see they are posted on ebay, since its a company using ebay shop.

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates/56700-selective-abortion-9.html#post1095103

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First of all, this is not a website attempting to sell a 3-D scanner. This is an article discussing the use of the 3-D scanner.

Do you even know why the 3-D scanner was developed? It was developed to provide more accurate images of fetuses so that gross malformation and birth defects could be detected earlier. It is also used for intauterine surgery to correct some birth defects that are correctable in the womb. Further, the earlier that we are able to detect gross malformation, especially that which is incpmpatible with life, the earlier the woman is able to choose whether to continue with, or end the preganancy. This devise was developed to permit that to happen.

No matter ow many heroic measures are taken, a 12 week old fetus cannot, under any circumstances, survive outside the womb. Therefore, it is dependent upon the woman's body for survival until that time in which it becomes viable.

A 25 week-30 week gestational age means that the woman is in the 3rd trimester of her preganancy. Even therapuetic abortions doen to save the life of a mother are very, very rarely done at this point in gestation. There is a HUGE difference between a 12 week gestational aged fetus and a gestational age of 25 weeks. Check a biology book, for Heaven's sake.

 

[jillio]

There's a grey/gray area being swum into by the state of Maryland in that they've a law where a pregnant mother's murder can be charged as a double homicide.

Only at a gestational age that would be medically considered viable.

 

[Hermes]

Incorrect assumptions. Byrdie carries the ability to sustain independent life. He is able to breathe, to take nourishment, his cardiovascular system functions independent of the woman who gave birth to him, and he is not dependent upon a physical connection to another human being for said functions. A fetus does not have that capability. The fetus is not a separate living organism until it has been detached from the woman via the cut umbilical cord.

When you tell me you could have taken your own daughters remainings in your own hands after her abortion. Face with her. I will buy all your hypothetical arguments that are only using a definition from here, an idea from there.

We can discuss it all day and night. Are you up to face with it in real life? Not as a concept. Can you use your own hands for this?

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[jillio]

Of course it is on topic.. The reasons you gave are valid for you but some people dont approve them here. And you do not approve when a parent wants to kill his child because they cant feed him. There are some people find it outrageous when you want to abort a baby. They are no different than you reacting my example right now. See its all subjective. If you respect choices when it comes to "killing", you should respect other people's choices to kill too. Their reason doesnt have to match your morals as yours dont match some other people's.

Once egg becomes an unborn baby who has all her organs, who breaths, who gets fed, who moves, who feels (do you think babies gain to ability to feel the very moment they are pushed out their mother's body and start crying? try and see if a premature born baby can feel) killing is killing. Its different than aborting the fertilized egg at the first stage. So if killing by choice is Ok, it shouldnt only depend on Jiro's own moral. It should be OK..


Its a choice, why did you suddenly find it outrages?
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Again, fallicous argument, the favorite tactic of the anti-abortionists.

 

[jillio]

I am not against aborting the embryo itself at the first stage. Abortion is not limited to that though. They allow it until 24th week, we are discussing here 30th week abortion for disable babies. I am posting 3 pictures . They are from 20 weeks, 25 weeks, and 30 weeks (from up to down). Please put all names a side. It doesnt matter if we call it fetus or baby or human. Look at what you are seeing. This is not a little embryo, what you see can not be taken out of woman's body in one piece. Please read how a doctor describes the operation that takes place after 12th week:

So Jillo, Jiro, Jolie, (I am calling your names because I know you, I am not doing it for targeting you) you are all saying this option should be given to mothers . But all these arguments sound like academic discussions. They are based on concepts, definitions, we make it sound like its about democracy, its about defending the freedom. Lets say you have this freedom (which you have), which one of you can really go through it if they were going to give you remainings of the baby after abortion , so you could bury? Jillo, Jolie, you both have kids. Look at these pictures. If they were your daughters, which one you could be there and see their body on the table? Look into their eyes. They have eyes , you see it? It is easy (well not really, but relatively) when a woman goes to clinic and sleeps for couple hours during the operation and comes back home with no baby inside. She doesnt think (or tries not to think) on what really happens there. But how many people can really face the reality. See it, touch it, carry it, bury it?

I think you should go to a clinic and ask permission for watching an abortion. You should take this fetus , baby whatever you want to call it and carry it yourself where they dump it . You should put your hands onto it , and then decide for yourself . Only then you can really make a choice, and it becomes a conscious choice. But please dont turn this into an intellectual argument where the textbook definitions are more important than actual reality. If he doesnt look like a baby in the pictures, if the doctor sounds like lying, go to a clinic and watch it, touch it yourself. See what it looks like, see if he can bleed, see what happens to him.

I think abortion should be allowed, but they should require mothers to watch one abortion operation before their own and also they should give their own babies remanings to them so parents can bury him. Anybody who can face with reality of their actions should be allowed to have abortion.

Then women can make conscious choices on how to practice safe sex, or at what stage of pregnancy they will go to clinic or how they will keep the baby and raise it. Then it would really be their choice and they would live with it. Then we can talk about "choice"..

I am not against freedom , if you have read my other posts in AD you would notice that. Have all the freedom you want and make a choice. I just want you to face with the choice. Not here on AD as a intellectual argument one's logic will beat the other, but in real life as an actual , undeniable reality. What ever you choose afterwards, I respect that.


Hermes


(Mod's Edit: inappropriate images are removed)

I am adding links to images that show 20-25-30 weeks ultrasounds as requested. These are the pictures of alive, healthy babies in the womb , they should be considered happy moments , but if its considered inappropriate , I wont argue over it.. Please view and see for yourself.

http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/e1/c7/47_2.JPG

http://i7.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/77/c6/561d_1_sbl.JPG

http://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/db/15/d7_1_sbl.JPG

A abortion done in the third trimester is only legal when carrying the pregnancy to term would result in probable death. Even then, after 25 weeks, the fetuses are usually delivered by inducing labor and delivering them pre-term. A 30 week old fetus would be aborted only if it has died in utero, ir if it is so grossly malformed that the deformities are imcompatible with life.

Really, you need to get your facts straight, and not post such misleading and innaccurate starements if you wish your arguments to have any credibility at all.

 

[jillio]

Biology 101.

Anytime you have a organism latched onto the host to get nutrients from it, it's known as a parasite.

Once the parasite is detached from the organism--in this situation--it's a human being.

Can't understand it? Sorry you didn't pass Biology.

Exactly!