SEE is a language... It's English...

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Beowulf said:
Me, too, so let's simply it. For example, an announcement comes on the loudspeaker, "For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750."
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm."
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five."
That is SEE.

:P
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LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this. (Army brat here).
 
LinuxGold said:
Using explanation of M1 Abrams from Wikipedia, one would agree that ASL is the simplest form of tool to introduce the main idea of M1 Abrams in spoken language and more details can be read in English to research for details in later time. I am sure most teachers or professor TEND to summarize in their opening presentation in classes and to allow students to learn more from books in later time.

SEE (highly detailed, cumbersome and time consuming):

The M1 Abrams is a third-generation main battle tank produced in the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff and Commander of US military forces in Vietnam from 1968 to 1972. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare.[6] Notable features of the tank include the use of a powerful gas turbine engine (fueled with JP8 jet fuel), the adoption of sophisticated composite armor, and separate ammunition storage in a blow-out compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons (almost 62 metric tons), it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


PSE (summarized with sufficient information):

The M1 Abrams is third-generation tank from the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare. The tank use powerful gas turbine engine, armor, and ammunition storage in a compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons, it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


ASL (quickly communicated, expressive and direct to the point):

M1 Abrams that 3rd gen tank by United States. Name M1 from General Creighton Abrams that former Army Chief of Staff. That M1 well armed, heavily armored, easily movable tank for for armored on ground war. Easy ID tank that one: powerful gas turbine engine, two: complex armor, three: ammunition storage for crew safe. HEAVY weight about 68 tons, that lead heavy main battle tanks so far now.
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Awesome post.
 
Heh, heh. Apparently it loses something in the translation. :lol:

"For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750." (5:50 p.m.)
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm." (5:30 p.m.)
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five." (5:30 p.m.)
That is SEE.
 
Reba said:
Heh, heh. Apparently it loses something in the translation. :lol:

"For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750." (5:50 p.m.)
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm." (5:30 p.m.)
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five." (5:30 p.m.)
That is SEE.
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Nice catch, Reba. And I tried to simplify (simply) it! :lol:
 
Reba said:
Heh, heh. Apparently it loses something in the translation. :lol:

"For the Air Force personnel, dinner is served at 1750." (5:50 p.m.)
That is ASL.


"For the Navy personnel, dinner is served at five thirty pm." (5:30 p.m.)
That is PSE.

"For you Marines, the big hand is on six, and the little hand is on five." (5:30 p.m.)
That is SEE.
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Ha ha, nice catch. Now I understand it. :lol:
 
shel90 said:
You came in here stating that SEE is a language. We are telling you that it is not. Many of us have experience with it and know that it is very cumbersome. I have a hard time believing that 100% SEE is being used in the educational setting because of how much time it takes to get the message across.
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And, for that very same reason, I have difficulty believing that it is being used 100% correctly in a conversational / social setting. I can still sign SEE because my base is fluency in ASL and English. I can, but if there is anyway not to, I won't. I have experience with it. That experience is what tells me that it is not effective for communication purposes, and should only be used in select and limited ways educationally.

You know, I have heard many, many people over the years claim to sign SEE. When I actually communicate with them, they are not signing SEE at all. They are signing PSE...ASL signs in English word order with a few initialized signs thrown in. And if they add voice to it, it becomes Sign Suported Speech....spoken English with a few of the major concept signs thrown in.
 
jillio said:
Didn't skip a bit of it. And there was nothing condescending in my post. You stated that you were well read and well researched, so I was simply asking you if all that reading and research, you had encountered information on when, how, and why the gaps widen. I was prepared to get into a discussion with you regarding that, but hey, I guess not.

Comfortable with your choice? Good for you. Then why are you spending so much time trying to justify it?
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This is not a discussion about the gaps. It is a discussion about SEE and that it can be a viable mode of communication when used properly. You want to talk about gaps, start another thread.
I respond to a comment, I'm considered defensive. I answer a question, I'm justifying what I do. Why are you spending so much time attacking something that has been successful for my son?
You still haven't responded to my comments above about the fact that through the use of TC and SEE my child is at or above grade level. If it is so ineffective, or if I am most certainly NOT using SEE, how is it my child got to where he is at? Oh yeah, I forgot. Aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Faire Joure was on to something when she made the comment about not doing things Jillio's way. Here is another saying worth considering, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Now I am a vegetarian so that saying is a bit gross, but entirely appropriate. At least I am level headed enough to know that is in fact the truth. You perched up high on your soap box will scream, "NO!!!! There is one way, and that is my way!" Well Jillio, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the world does not begin and end at your feet.
I do not dispute that ASL is faster when it comes to communicating concepts and ideas. I will dispute the fact that SEE is an impossibility, because I know that it is not.
Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on?
Jillio, it is possible for there to be another parent on this earth who has taken the time to learn and educate themselves about their child's "disability." Please note "disability" was in quotes. I don't consider my child disabled. I consider him enabled in many different ways.
My goodness, at least I recognize that there are different ways to achieve an end. You are so stuck on your way, that you are blinded to other possibilities.
I never claimed to be the expert on anything. You Jillio, on the other hand have appointed yourself the expert on everything DHH. If you were so knowledgable about SEE you would then know that it still incorporates the same visual principles as ASL. But you can't seem to see anything past your nose.
Do not insult my child. He is a success and I'm sorry that you cannot be happy for him. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed I would commend you on finding something that worked well for you and your child. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, I'll stay in the light.

C
 
CSign said:
This is not a discussion about the gaps. It is a discussion about SEE and that it can be a viable mode of communication when used properly. You want to talk about gaps, start another thread.
I respond to a comment, I'm considered defensive. I answer a question, I'm justifying what I do. Why are you spending so much time attacking something that has been successful for my son?
You still haven't responded to my comments above about the fact that through the use of TC and SEE my child is at or above grade level. If it is so ineffective, or if I am most certainly NOT using SEE, how is it my child got to where he is at? Oh yeah, I forgot. Aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Faire Joure was on to something when she made the comment about not doing things Jillio's way. Here is another saying worth considering, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Now I am a vegetarian so that saying is a bit gross, but entirely appropriate. At least I am level headed enough to know that is in fact the truth. You perched up high on your soap box will scream, "NO!!!! There is one way, and that is my way!" Well Jillio, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the world does not begin and end at your feet.
I do not dispute that ASL is faster when it comes to communicating concepts and ideas. I will dispute the fact that SEE is an impossibility, because I know that it is not.
Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on?
Jillio, it is possible for there to be another parent on this earth who has taken the time to learn and educate themselves about their child's "disability." Please note "disability" was in quotes. I don't consider my child disabled. I consider him enabled in many different ways.
My goodness, at least I recognize that there are different ways to achieve an end. You are so stuck on your way, that you are blinded to other possibilities.
I never claimed to be the expert on anything. You Jillio, on the other hand have appointed yourself the expert on everything DHH. If you were so knowledgable about SEE you would then know that it still incorporates the same visual principles as ASL. But you can't seem to see anything past your nose.
Do not insult my child. He is a success and I'm sorry that you cannot be happy for him. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed I would commend you on finding something that worked well for you and your child. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, I'll stay in the light.

C
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It would be awesome if such a world exists. Only in your dreams. That's just my opinion gathered from over half a century of observations. Sorry, I do not mean to offend.
 
Beowulf said:
It would be awesome if such a world exists. Only in your dreams. That's just my opinion gathered from over half a century of observations. Sorry, I do not mean to offend.
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And I agree. There really is no discussion. The jury came in years ago with a decision regarding the validity of SEE as a communication method. **shrug** And it certainly can't be discussed when a participant in the discussion refused to incorporate that information into their arsenal. That would be a lecture, not a discussion.
 
CSign said:
This is not a discussion about the gaps. It is a discussion about SEE and that it can be a viable mode of communication when used properly. You want to talk about gaps, start another thread.
I respond to a comment, I'm considered defensive. I answer a question, I'm justifying what I do. Why are you spending so much time attacking something that has been successful for my son?
You still haven't responded to my comments above about the fact that through the use of TC and SEE my child is at or above grade level. If it is so ineffective, or if I am most certainly NOT using SEE, how is it my child got to where he is at? Oh yeah, I forgot. Aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Faire Joure was on to something when she made the comment about not doing things Jillio's way. Here is another saying worth considering, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Now I am a vegetarian so that saying is a bit gross, but entirely appropriate. At least I am level headed enough to know that is in fact the truth. You perched up high on your soap box will scream, "NO!!!! There is one way, and that is my way!" Well Jillio, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the world does not begin and end at your feet.
I do not dispute that ASL is faster when it comes to communicating concepts and ideas. I will dispute the fact that SEE is an impossibility, because I know that it is not.
Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on?
Jillio, it is possible for there to be another parent on this earth who has taken the time to learn and educate themselves about their child's "disability." Please note "disability" was in quotes. I don't consider my child disabled. I consider him enabled in many different ways.
My goodness, at least I recognize that there are different ways to achieve an end. You are so stuck on your way, that you are blinded to other possibilities.
I never claimed to be the expert on anything. You Jillio, on the other hand have appointed yourself the expert on everything DHH. If you were so knowledgable about SEE you would then know that it still incorporates the same visual principles as ASL. But you can't seem to see anything past your nose.
Do not insult my child. He is a success and I'm sorry that you cannot be happy for him. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed I would commend you on finding something that worked well for you and your child. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, I'll stay in the light.

C
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It would appear that your interest is not so much in discussing SEE or anything to do with language acquisition in deaf children, but simply to try to dig up anything you can to play the "prove Jillio wrong" game.

Who insulted your child? No one here, for certain.

I do hope you find that light. It will certainly free you and your child from the need to present as you do.

Tell FJ I said "hi". LOL

And SEE is not a language. Nanny nanny boo boo!
 
LOL Jillio. How can you say you advocate for "all possibilities" when you are shutting one down? **shrug**. Jillio, you are so right. I am so sorry for ever defying you. You are the master and I am a mere pawn.
I conceded earlier that SEE is not a "language." that's fine, I don't really care what we call it. It is a system/mode that represents a language. I'm sorry that I value English and ASL.
I think that may be the difference between us (among many other things). I recognize and appreciate the purpose they both serve.

C
 
CSign said:
LOL Jillio. How can you say you advocate for "all possibilities" when you are shutting one down? **shrug**. Jillio, you are so right. I am so sorry for ever defying you. You are the master and I am a mere pawn.
I conceded earlier that SEE is not a "language." that's fine, I don't really care what we call it. It is a system/mode that represents a language. I'm sorry that I value English and ASL.
I think that may be the difference between us (among many other things). I recognize and appreciate the purpose they both serve.

C
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What exactly am I shutting down? Misperceptions of what SEE and all of the MCE's were intended for? I haven't shut it down. I have advocated for it's use in the way that has empiricly been shown to be of value.

Seriously...you need to stop looking at my posts with some pre-conceived distortion fed to you by someone else.
 
CSign said:
This is not a discussion about the gaps. It is a discussion about SEE and that it can be a viable mode of communication when used properly. You want to talk about gaps, start another thread.
I respond to a comment, I'm considered defensive. I answer a question, I'm justifying what I do. Why are you spending so much time attacking something that has been successful for my son?
You still haven't responded to my comments above about the fact that through the use of TC and SEE my child is at or above grade level. If it is so ineffective, or if I am most certainly NOT using SEE, how is it my child got to where he is at? Oh yeah, I forgot. Aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Faire Joure was on to something when she made the comment about not doing things Jillio's way. Here is another saying worth considering, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Now I am a vegetarian so that saying is a bit gross, but entirely appropriate. At least I am level headed enough to know that is in fact the truth. You perched up high on your soap box will scream, "NO!!!! There is one way, and that is my way!" Well Jillio, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the world does not begin and end at your feet.
I do not dispute that ASL is faster when it comes to communicating concepts and ideas. I will dispute the fact that SEE is an impossibility, because I know that it is not.
Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on?
Jillio, it is possible for there to be another parent on this earth who has taken the time to learn and educate themselves about their child's "disability." Please note "disability" was in quotes. I don't consider my child disabled. I consider him enabled in many different ways.
My goodness, at least I recognize that there are different ways to achieve an end. You are so stuck on your way, that you are blinded to other possibilities.
I never claimed to be the expert on anything. You Jillio, on the other hand have appointed yourself the expert on everything DHH. If you were so knowledgable about SEE you would then know that it still incorporates the same visual principles as ASL. But you can't seem to see anything past your nose.
Do not insult my child. He is a success and I'm sorry that you cannot be happy for him. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed I would commend you on finding something that worked well for you and your child. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, I'll stay in the light.

C
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You still havent answered my question about it being ok to take spoken English to make it into spoken ASL. Is that ok to do?
 
I haven't been "fed" anything. I made a choice to provide my son with access to language he is surrounded by every day. I made a choice based upon research, and based upon the way I could provide my son with a complete language model. Period. Don't like it? Great! Doesn't really matter to me what you think Jillio. I laugh at how bothered you clearly are at the fact that it was/is a successful venture. Cheerio :)
 
No Shel, clearly ASL is not a spoken language.
 
CSign said:
This is not a discussion about the gaps. It is a discussion about SEE and that it can be a viable mode of communication when used properly. You want to talk about gaps, start another thread.
I respond to a comment, I'm considered defensive. I answer a question, I'm justifying what I do. Why are you spending so much time attacking something that has been successful for my son?
You still haven't responded to my comments above about the fact that through the use of TC and SEE my child is at or above grade level. If it is so ineffective, or if I am most certainly NOT using SEE, how is it my child got to where he is at? Oh yeah, I forgot. Aliens came and infused the knowledge in his brain.
Faire Joure was on to something when she made the comment about not doing things Jillio's way. Here is another saying worth considering, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." Now I am a vegetarian so that saying is a bit gross, but entirely appropriate. At least I am level headed enough to know that is in fact the truth. You perched up high on your soap box will scream, "NO!!!! There is one way, and that is my way!" Well Jillio, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the world does not begin and end at your feet.
I do not dispute that ASL is faster when it comes to communicating concepts and ideas. I will dispute the fact that SEE is an impossibility, because I know that it is not.
Reading other threads, someone made a comment about having other hearing children in the house. The challenges that come along with having one DHH child, and the rest of the house is hearing. So what do you propose Jillio? Everyone turn their voice off all the time? What about when we are communicating with others who are hearing and the DHH child is in the room? Verbally respond to a question and then sign your answer in ASL, or respond verbally and in sign at the same time so that child still has access to the conversation going on? Jillio, it is possible for there to be another parent on this earth who has taken the time to learn and educate themselves about their child's "disability." Please note "disability" was in quotes. I don't consider my child disabled. I consider him enabled in many different ways.
My goodness, at least I recognize that there are different ways to achieve an end. You are so stuck on your way, that you are blinded to other possibilities.
I never claimed to be the expert on anything. You Jillio, on the other hand have appointed yourself the expert on everything DHH. If you were so knowledgable about SEE you would then know that it still incorporates the same visual principles as ASL. But you can't seem to see anything past your nose.
Do not insult my child. He is a success and I'm sorry that you cannot be happy for him. I can tell you that if the roles were reversed I would commend you on finding something that worked well for you and your child. But hey, that's just me. Like I said, I'll stay in the light.

C
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I have a hearing son and I sign ASL with him. Voice off.

I know a few hearing families who have learned ASL for their deaf children adn use ASL with their other hearing children. Bilingualism has never shown to harm children.
 
CSign said:
LOL Jillio. How can you say you advocate for "all possibilities" when you are shutting one down? **shrug**. Jillio, you are so right. I am so sorry for ever defying you. You are the master and I am a mere pawn.
I conceded earlier that SEE is not a "language." that's fine, I don't really care what we call it. It is a system/mode that represents a language. I'm sorry that I value English and ASL.
I think that may be the difference between us (among many other things). I recognize and appreciate the purpose they both serve.

C
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What would you say if I advocated for changing spoken English to follow ASL syntax and call it spoken ASL?
 
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