SEE is a language... It's English...

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Again, I completely agree with you. I do that a lot. :giggle:

The way that I explain my language barrier to hearies is like this:

Born Deaf in Canada but naturally born, say, for argument, with Greek brain

Parents born hearing in Canada and naturally born with English brain

English parents try making me speak English when my brain is naturally wired to speak Greek. I get confused. Mummy, Daddy, "I don't think in English."

If hearing parents understood that Greek was how my brain was wired then they should teach me Greek first and then teach me English as a second language later; once I've mastered Greek and I've been given a chance to succeed in my own natural language.

I hope that makes sense?

Makes perfect sense to me.:wave:
 
I cant imagine signing exact SEE...it doesnt feel natural to me.
 
CSign,

As a mother of 7, I know as a mother we will do everything in the best interests of our children. I am not disputing that and I commend your efforts. It is much appreciated that you are sharing your story. Thank you for sharing.

My point all along is, as many have mentioned here, a Deaf child's brain is wired differently to be totally visual. So perspectives are also different. I don't know if you have had the chance to visit Naisho's thread on 'how does your mind work?' that certainly gives insight. The deaf mind - perhaps you can relate it to Dyslexia. People with Dyslexia (my son and I are dyslexic) are 'wired' differently.
 
I get the fact that my child accesses language differently than my younger son who is hearing, or any other hearing person for that matter. I understand he best receives information visually. That is why I've given it to him visually. He also does receive some auditory benefit with his HA's on. With the language he has he is able to put together pieces of the puzzle if he missed/misunderstood a word if someone is only speaking to him. That is because he has a solid understanding of English.
To all of the nay sayers out there... Please tell me how the mode of communication we have used is outdated or ineffective when my child has more than proficient English skills? Please explain to me how if our goal was to effectively communicate, and for him to not fall behind in English (which he is expected to master) how is that wrong? We have more than achieved those goals! We can communicate with or without HA's, and with or without voice. How is it faulty if he is a success?
Jillio, you've referenced studies that say that TC/SEE is outdated and ineffective. I'd be interested in seeing them. They won't change what I'm doing, but I'm always open to additional information.
In terms of SSS/Sim-com I learned about that in my son's early years when I was doing my research. I didn't go into this, and make decisions without educating myself first.
TC is somewhat a catch all phrase. I do use sim-com as a part of Total Communication. TC refers to many things including the use of auditory, sign, pictures, and fingerspelling. Which ever us appropriate at any given time. The fundamentals of my communication with my child are sign/voice i.e. Sim-com. And if a person is willing to commit, they can achieve a level of fluency in speaking and signing at the same time without compromising the integrity of the language.
Use PSE/CASE with a child who is establishing their language skills you are setting them up for failure.
I said it before, and I'll say it again... My child acquired meaningful language because he had complete and ongoing access to it. It seems many of you are placing value judgements upon "which language is better." I've never done that, nor will I do it. Both SEE/English and ASL are equally valuable and equally important. Thats my word and I'm sticking to it. So there ;-)
 
Csign, I think you're doing a marlevous job with your son. Too often, hearing parents don't know, or don't want to know, how to enable their Deaf child to communicate with others.

From a Deaf standpoint, I think the approach could be different, because I know how we approach communication, but at least you are doing something. :hug:

I had no means to communicate from the age of 5 onwards. It's not a lot of fun feeling like you are being thrown to the wolves (ie: hearies - no offence) but I can tell you that you are giving him a huge head start.

I have the equivalent of a Masters (ie: CGA) and also a Bachelors and I am sought out for my skill/brain; not how I talk or the fact that I don't hear like others. I'm sure your son will exceed that thanks to your love and desire to know more about his community.
 
... a Deaf child's brain is wired differently to be totally visual. So perspectives are also different. I don't know if you have had the chance to visit Naisho's thread on 'how does your mind work?' that certainly gives insight. The deaf mind - perhaps you can relate it to Dyslexia. People with Dyslexia (my son and I are dyslexic) are 'wired' differently.

I get the fact that my child accesses language differently than my younger son who is hearing, or any other hearing person for that matter. I understand he best receives information visually. That is why I've given it to him visually.

I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. Although SEE is sign language, it is not *visual* like ASL. In other words, a signed language is not automatically a visual language just because you use your eyes instead of your ears. My best way to explain is this...

Hearing or new ASL users often times try to assign an English word that can be spoken to every ASL sign. This seriously slows down the rate of comprehension. Also, if an English word cannot be applied, the new ASL user can become lost. This is because new ASL users have a brain wired to think in English syntax.

ASL is also sign language. However, ASL is the sign language that is truly visual. A new ASL user has to turn off their "English thinking brain" and just absorb the signs ("think in pictures") and everything makes sense. This "thinking in English" and "thinking in pictures" is the "wired differently" that people are talking about. If your son was born deaf, I very much doubt he thinks in words or thinks in English. Of course I can't know for certain. But, BecLak is right... Naisho's thread on how your mind works might be helpful.

Knowing SEE does not necessarily give someone "groundwork" to learning ASL. In fact, it can screw it up. It's harder to go from knowing SEE to learning ASL as it is to knowing no sign language to learning ASL. I think this is because the mind-to-hand language development is first laid down in English (for SEE). Then to learn ASL, you have to change all the rules you already know. I don't know how to explain this. But, those of you who are SEE to ASL users, maybe you can help make this point more clear. A lot of SEE to ASL users often times remain stuck in PSE at best because of this.

I learned SEE first because it was most like English. I don't use SEE anymore and now find it very hard on the eyes. I remember my first experience with ASL (at a basketball game at CSDF). That totally changed my perspective.

I don't see anything wrong with SEE per se. I think above all it is GREAT that you use sign language and have communication with your son. Too many parents don't put forth that effort. My only recommendation is that you introduce ASL at an early age. Don't wait for your son's English to become solid. Knowing ASL is so very important to being part of and being accepted in the Deaf community. Not very many Deaf people have the patience to communicate in SEE. Younger Deaf children may not even understand SEE and will be quick to reject your son for "being different". It might be harsh to say... but children can be harsh. I experienced that myself.
 
I'm one of the old folks. I still say SSS (sign supported speech) instead of Sim-Com.:giggle:
Sign supported speech is really a more accurate description than even Sim-Com because it is usually mostly speech with a few signs tossed in.
 
I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. Although SEE is sign language, it is not *visual* like ASL. In other words, a signed language is not automatically a visual language just because you use your eyes instead of your ears. My best way to explain is this...

Hearing or new ASL users often times try to assign an English word that can be spoken to every ASL sign. This seriously slows down the rate of comprehension. Also, if an English word cannot be applied, the new ASL user can become lost. This is because new ASL users have a brain wired to think in English syntax.

ASL is also sign language. However, ASL is the sign language that is truly visual. A new ASL user has to turn off their "English thinking brain" and just absorb the signs ("think in pictures") and everything makes sense. This "thinking in English" and "thinking in pictures" is the "wired differently" that people are talking about. If your son was born deaf, I very much doubt he thinks in words or thinks in English. Of course I can't know for certain. But, BecLak is right... Naisho's thread on how your mind works might be helpful.

Knowing SEE does not necessarily give someone "groundwork" to learning ASL. In fact, it can screw it up. It's harder to go from knowing SEE to learning ASL as it is to knowing no sign language to learning ASL. I think this is because the mind-to-hand language development is first laid down in English (for SEE). Then to learn ASL, you have to change all the rules you already know. I don't know how to explain this. But, those of you who are SEE to ASL users, maybe you can help make this point more clear. A lot of SEE to ASL users often times remain stuck in PSE at best because of this.

I learned SEE first because it was most like English. I don't use SEE anymore and now find it very hard on the eyes. I remember my first experience with ASL (at a basketball game at CSDF). That totally changed my perspective.

I don't see anything wrong with SEE per se. I think above all it is GREAT that you use sign language and have communication with your son. Too many parents don't put forth that effort. My only recommendation is that you introduce ASL at an early age. Don't wait for your son's English to become solid. Knowing ASL is so very important to being part of and being accepted in the Deaf community. Not very many Deaf people have the patience to communicate in SEE. Younger Deaf children may not even understand SEE and will be quick to reject your son for "being different". It might be harsh to say... but children can be harsh. I experienced that myself.

No. SEE is not a language. It is manually coded English.
 
I get the fact that my child accesses language differently than my younger son who is hearing, or any other hearing person for that matter. I understand he best receives information visually. That is why I've given it to him visually. He also does receive some auditory benefit with his HA's on. With the language he has he is able to put together pieces of the puzzle if he missed/misunderstood a word if someone is only speaking to him. That is because he has a solid understanding of English.
To all of the nay sayers out there... Please tell me how the mode of communication we have used is outdated or ineffective when my child has more than proficient English skills? Please explain to me how if our goal was to effectively communicate, and for him to not fall behind in English (which he is expected to master) how is that wrong? We have more than achieved those goals! We can communicate with or without HA's, and with or without voice. How is it faulty if he is a success?
Jillio, you've referenced studies that say that TC/SEE is outdated and ineffective. I'd be interested in seeing them. They won't change what I'm doing, but I'm always open to additional information.
In terms of SSS/Sim-com I learned about that in my son's early years when I was doing my research. I didn't go into this, and make decisions without educating myself first.
TC is somewhat a catch all phrase. I do use sim-com as a part of Total Communication. TC refers to many things including the use of auditory, sign, pictures, and fingerspelling. Which ever us appropriate at any given time. The fundamentals of my communication with my child are sign/voice i.e. Sim-com. And if a person is willing to commit, they can achieve a level of fluency in speaking and signing at the same time without compromising the integrity of the language.
Use PSE/CASE with a child who is establishing their language skills you are setting them up for failure.
I said it before, and I'll say it again... My child acquired meaningful language because he had complete and ongoing access to it. It seems many of you are placing value judgements upon "which language is better." I've never done that, nor will I do it. Both SEE/English and ASL are equally valuable and equally important. Thats my word and I'm sticking to it. So there ;-)

Firstly, regarding the question you asked about mode of communication: Do you know the history of SEE I or SEE II? They were never intended as modes of communication.

Re: regarding fluency in Sim-Com...can you support that with evidence? And again, Sim-Com is used for the convenience of the hearing signer, not the deaf person receiving the sign.

Re: English and ASL are equally important, and if you want to throw SEE in there as well, fine. However, they are intended for different purposes. You would not use a shoe to fry an egg, would you? No doubt the egg would still be cooked (reaching the goal), but would no doubt be extremely unappetizing. A hungry child, having been deprived of real food for a long time, would no doubt eat that egg. But if they were given a choice of an egg cooked in a vessel that was intended to cook an egg, they would no doubt by-pass the shoe cooked egg.

Do you mind a question? How old is your son? What testing and what criteria has a professional used to support your claims that his use of English is advanced to the degree that you claim it is? Has he had a formal language assessment? There are many many more aspects to fluency than simply expressing needs and wants and being able to read a sentence with an average degree of comprehension.

Do you have any understanding of linguistics or cognitive psychology? Have you, in your research, read anything at all relating these topics to the deaf? This is not a challenge, but a true question.

English has evolved as a spoken language intended to address the needs of a hearing population. Even in it's written form, it is processed in the brain as a spoken language. The brain processes auditory stimuli in a very different way than it processes visual stimuli. That is apparent in the difference in syntax between English and ASL. ASL evolved to address the visual processing needs of the deaf. Any language evolves to address the needs of the population it serves. English for hearing with it's linear syntax because the brain processes auditory stimuli in a linear way. ASL with a time oriented, spatial syntax because the brain processes visual stimuli spatially. This is something that has been known by cognitive psychologists for many, many years. This is the foundation for all of the studies done in cognitive psychology in regard to the deaf and the most efficient way to present information for their processing style. When you attempt to put a linear syntax to spatial information, it confuses the brain. That is what you are doing when you sim-com, or when you attempt to use SEE in either variation for communication. Visually, the brain will still process what is being received in a spatial format. That distorts the message. That is obvious when one tries to write in ASL syntax. Written languages are a mode of the spoken version of that language, so they are processed as auditory information. When you write the syntax of a visual, manual language, it is obvious that the brain cannot process it properly because it is attempting to process that which is spatial in a linear way. The very reason that "Store go me" makes no sense when it is written down. Your brain is processing a spatial syntax from a linear perspective because it is used to processing written language the same way it processes the spoken mode of the same language. Conversely, when you sign "I am going to the store." the brain processes it in a spatial way even though it is not in a spatial syntax. It is just as confusing as the other way around.

If you are truly interested in learning more about the way a deaf child processes language, and the inherent risks in using SEE as a communication method, I would suggest you start with Deafness and Child Development; a very interesting text by Kathy Meadows, one of the premier researchers into this very topic. It was written in 1979, which supports my claim that as far back as 1979, we have scientific evidence of the failure of SEE to address the communication needs of a deaf child. However, since you have already determined that nothing will change your mind, I have doubts that you are open minded enough to actually make use of any new information you find. Therefore, I will not bother with more than one reference. It would be a waste of both our times.

Again, this is not a criticism, but the issue is not just giving him a visual component to language. It is presenting that visual component in a way that allows the brain to intuit meaning without creating obstacles.
 
I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. Although SEE is sign language, it is not *visual* like ASL. In other words, a signed language is not automatically a visual language just because you use your eyes instead of your ears. My best way to explain is this...

Hearing or new ASL users often times try to assign an English word that can be spoken to every ASL sign. This seriously slows down the rate of comprehension. Also, if an English word cannot be applied, the new ASL user can become lost. This is because new ASL users have a brain wired to think in English syntax.

ASL is also sign language. However, ASL is the sign language that is truly visual. A new ASL user has to turn off their "English thinking brain" and just absorb the signs ("think in pictures") and everything makes sense. This "thinking in English" and "thinking in pictures" is the "wired differently" that people are talking about. If your son was born deaf, I very much doubt he thinks in words or thinks in English. Of course I can't know for certain. But, BecLak is right... Naisho's thread on how your mind works might be helpful.

Knowing SEE does not necessarily give someone "groundwork" to learning ASL. In fact, it can screw it up. It's harder to go from knowing SEE to learning ASL as it is to knowing no sign language to learning ASL. I think this is because the mind-to-hand language development is first laid down in English (for SEE). Then to learn ASL, you have to change all the rules you already know. I don't know how to explain this. But, those of you who are SEE to ASL users, maybe you can help make this point more clear. A lot of SEE to ASL users often times remain stuck in PSE at best because of this.

I learned SEE first because it was most like English. I don't use SEE anymore and now find it very hard on the eyes. I remember my first experience with ASL (at a basketball game at CSDF). That totally changed my perspective.

I don't see anything wrong with SEE per se. I think above all it is GREAT that you use sign language and have communication with your son. Too many parents don't put forth that effort. My only recommendation is that you introduce ASL at an early age. Don't wait for your son's English to become solid. Knowing ASL is so very important to being part of and being accepted in the Deaf community. Not very many Deaf people have the patience to communicate in SEE. Younger Deaf children may not even understand SEE and will be quick to reject your son for "being different". It might be harsh to say... but children can be harsh. I experienced that myself.

Excellent post.
 
Sign supported speech is really a more accurate description than even Sim-Com because it is usually mostly speech with a few signs tossed in.

Yeppers. Which is why it is fairly ineffective for communication or teaching purposes.
 
Sign supported speech is really a more accurate description than even Sim-Com because it is usually mostly speech with a few signs tossed in.

And because I am teaching my hearing children sign, as I am oral-deaf, it could even be Speech Supported Sign as well? :P
 
I think i'd get strange looks if I said store go me outloud in English.

Yes, and that is why so many deaf are seen as illiterate and stupid (judgement based on their ability to communicate in English).

In my neck of the woods, the deaf are seen as mentally challenged simply because they sign in ASL and communicate in writing by using "broken english".

To a person not familiar with ASL or deaf culture, this "broken english" will make them wonder about the mental competency of the ASL user. Its sad.
 
Wirelessly posted

Bottesini said:
"SEE does not achieve the same result as ASL. In fact, it has been shown through much research that it acutually provides a confusing linguistic environment. And of course there are ways that are superior for accomplishing a specific goal. That holds true for everything." Jillio

She has a PhD in it. So she knows what she is saying.

in what? I thought it was in psychology not the lingustics of ASL
 
Wirelessly posted

jillio said:
I wouldn't say SEE is responsible for all of that. I would have to give my son credit as well because he is smart and takes it all in. I am able to sign at the same pace as my voice, without compromising the integrity of either. And yes, I use all the prepositions, endings etc. In order to give a complete visual representation of what I'm saying. It didn't happen overnight. I took classes, studied, and use it everyday. That is how I was able to get to where I'm at today. I'm well read, and have researched all sides of this.

Sorry, there is no way on this earth that you can sign SEE as rapidly as you vocalize the same message. I doubt seriously that you are using SEE. You are no doubt using PSE.

how can you possibly know what she is signing?!?

another thread where a parent is disparaged and called uninformed, mislead and an oralist because they didn't do it Jillio's way...
 
Using explanation of M1 Abrams from Wikipedia, one would agree that ASL is the simplest form of tool to introduce the main idea of M1 Abrams in spoken language and more details can be read in English to research for details in later time. I am sure most teachers or professor TEND to summarize in their opening presentation in classes and to allow students to learn more from books in later time.

SEE (highly detailed, cumbersome and time consuming):

The M1 Abrams is a third-generation main battle tank produced in the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff and Commander of US military forces in Vietnam from 1968 to 1972. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare.[6] Notable features of the tank include the use of a powerful gas turbine engine (fueled with JP8 jet fuel), the adoption of sophisticated composite armor, and separate ammunition storage in a blow-out compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons (almost 62 metric tons), it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


PSE (summarized with sufficient information):

The M1 Abrams is third-generation tank from the United States. It is named after General Creighton Abrams, former Army Chief of Staff. The M1 is a well armed, heavily armored, and highly mobile tank designed for modern armored ground warfare. The tank use powerful gas turbine engine, armor, and ammunition storage in a compartment for crew safety. With a weight of close to 68 short tons, it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks currently in service.


ASL (quickly communicated, expressive and direct to the point):

M1 Abrams that 3rd gen tank by United States. Name M1 from General Creighton Abrams that former Army Chief of Staff. That M1 well armed, heavily armored, easily movable tank for for armored on ground war. Easy ID tank that one: powerful gas turbine engine, two: complex armor, three: ammunition storage for crew safe. HEAVY weight about 68 tons, that lead heavy main battle tanks so far now.
 
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