Reverse Discrimination Case

[jillio]

I have absolutely no interest in going back to school for a while. After all - the Real World is better than the Hypothetical World

might be a reason why you cannot understand the issue of this reverse discrimination case. who knows?

Funny, coming from someone that works on a college campus and spends their days communicating with computers. More vicarious living on your part.

But, back on topic, now.

 

[Jiro]

Funny, coming from someone that works on a college campus and spends their days communicating with computers. More vicarious living on your part.

only big difference - I work, you learn (and teach). Beside - my door's wide open for anybody to walk in for a chit-chat. so far... nobody came into my office today.....

oh wait - it's friday. that explains.

and why is it vicarious? just because you deal with patients mean you're better than us? I deal with clients, students, staff, vendors, and many more. I think you spend more time in AD than me.

But, back on topic, now.

why say that when I already said it?

 

[Daredevel7]

How about this (just to get us back on topic): Let's say that they make a new test, and it's been approved to remove cultural bias. What if the same thing happens? Do they keep going until the results have the exact same demographic proportions as the test takers? Only then would the test be approved?

I'm actually surprised that Jillio hasn't touched on the idea of the economic status of people affecting their education.

 

[Jiro]

How about this (just to get us back on topic): Let's say that they make a new test, and it's been approved to remove cultural bias. What if the same thing happens? Do they keep going until the results have the exact same demographic proportions as the test takers? Only then would the test be approved?

I'm actually surprised that Jillio hasn't touched on the idea of the economic status of people affecting their education.

economic status does not matter because the firemen are paid same. it's simple - you either can pass it or not... regardless of gender, race, economic status, etc.

 

[jillio]

How about this (just to get us back on topic): Let's say that they make a new test, and it's been approved to remove cultural bias. What if the same thing happens? Do they keep going until the results have the exact same demographic proportions as the test takers? Only then would the test be approved?

I'm actually surprised that Jillio hasn't touched on the idea of the economic status of people affecting their education.

I didn't touch on it because it is a given. I didn't think it needed to be stated.

If they give a second test that has been shown to be cross culturally valid, and the same results are achieved, then the results are valid, and can be used. But I seriously doubt that a test that has been shown to have cross cultural validity would yield the skewed results seen in this case. You would achieve a more normal curve on a valid instrument.

 

[Daredevel7]

economic status does not matter because the firemen are paid same. it's simple - you either can pass it or not... regardless of gender, race, economic status, etc.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant their economic status growing up, more specifically, their parents' economic status.

 

[jillio]

economic status does not matter because the firemen are paid same. it's simple - you either can pass it or not... regardless of gender, race, economic status, etc.

I can't believe you actually said that! Talk about misunderstanding!

 

[jillio]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant their economic status growing up, more specifically, their parents' economic status.

I thought it was clear, since you related it to education.

 

[Jiro]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant their economic status growing up, more specifically, their parents' economic status.

That's too bad then. Everybody's got different background and different life story. This test does not care. Just your knowledge, skill and competency. You either can do it or not. simple as that. Sure - someone would have an upper-hand but then... life's a bitch, eh? like being a bigger animal in Africa.

 

[naisho]

That's too bad then. Everybody's got different background and different life story. This test does not care. Just your knowledge, skill and competency. You either can do it or not. simple as that. Sure - someone would have an upper-hand but then... life's a bitch, eh? like being a bigger animal in Africa.

Y'know, funny you mentioned that. Did you realize that biologists are trying to study why Elephants exhibit weird animal behaviors?

You could almost say it's like a racial stereotype at play. These elephants knock over trees in the savanna randomly for reasons scientists cannot figure out for the life of them. But ultimately one thing for sure, them elephants hate those trees...



Anyhoo.. back on topic

 

[Jiro]

Y'know, funny you mentioned that. Did you realize that biologists are trying to study why Elephants exhibit weird animal behaviors?

You could almost say it's like a racial stereotype at play. These elephants knock over trees in the savanna randomly for reasons scientists cannot figure out for the life of them. But ultimately one thing for sure, them elephants hate those trees...

Anyhoo.. back on topic

possibilities:
1. it's got an itch over there and there
2. a clumsy elephant
3. a blind elephant
4. unknown

which is just like this test. do we really have to make this test to accommodate for itchy/clumsy/blind/unknown elephant?

 

[Daredevel7]

That's too bad then. Everybody's got different background and different life story. This test does not care. Just your knowledge, skill and competency. You either can do it or not. simple as that. Sure - someone would have an upper-hand but then... life's a bitch, eh? like being a bigger animal in Africa.

I know. Jillio says that the test is invalid already based on the simple fact that race was not evenly distributed. In theory, a black person is not different from a white person, so the results should have the same demographics as the test takers. About 25% of the test takers were black, so 25% of the promotions should have gone to black people. She says that there should be no reason why it shouldn't be 25% of the black people getting the promotion, therefore the test is invalid. I'm saying that the lack of a higher quality education due to parents' low income could be a reason.

(BTW, I did the math.... in order to represent the sample of the test takers, only 4 black people had to be promoted.... And if you take account the standard deviation, 0 is feasible...)

 

[Jiro]

I know. Jillio says that the test is invalid already based on the simple fact that race was not evenly distributed. In theory, a black person is not different from a white person, so the results should have the same demographics as the test takers. About 25% of the test takers were black, so 25% of the promotions should have gone to black people. She says that there should be no reason why it shouldn't be 25% of the black people getting the promotion, therefore the test is invalid. I'm saying that the lack of a higher quality education due to parents' low income could be a reason.

(BTW, I did the math.... in order to represent the sample of the test takers, only 4 black people had to be promoted.... And if you take account the standard deviation, 0 is feasible...)

then why don't we bring in minority population to even out the white population in CT? Again - I logically do not see anything wrong with this test because there are a handful of minorities in captain position (police & firemen) in places like L.A. and Baltimore. CT is predominantly white and obviously - there would be many white people in many seats.

mind you - people with higher quality education DO NOT usually join the firemen club. Ever seen a fireman with Master Degree?

 

[Daredevel7]

then why don't we bring in minority population to even out the white population in CT? Again - I logically do not see anything wrong with this test because there are a handful of minorities in captain position (police & firemen) in places like L.A. and Baltimore. CT is predominantly white and obviously - there would be many white people in many seats.

mind you - people with higher quality education DO NOT usually join the firemen club. Ever seen a fireman with Master Degree?

Quality not quantity.

 

[lsfoster]

So you are saying that none of the blacks or full Hispanics (as the one that scored higher on the test was bi-racial--Hispanic and white) scoring low on the test was no more than the result of coincidence? That it is just coincidence that all of the low scores came from minority populations? An intro course in statistics will easily show why that is not feasable as an argument.

And exactly what is your argument but hypothetical? Likewise, you cannot substanitate your claim of coincidence with any kind opf fact that would support even a remote possibility of truth. And if a test is valid, it will show an even distribution. That is what validity is all about. A skewed distribution indicates problems with validity. Please, before you attempt to argue the issues of validity and reliability, you really do need to learn something about it. You just keep demonstrating your lack of knowledge.

An even distribution of what? Scores? Nothing was said about the distribution of scores on the exam. The only "distribution" that was considered was race. But please, explain to me again how I'm the one that insists on focusing on race as the main issue. If you really can't think of any other factors that might affect someone's score other than race, I would appreciate if you stop telling me that I'm the one focused on it. I'm on the side of people who are advocating not judging them based on race.

Your last statement actually supports the claim of bias in testing. This discussion would have been over long ago if you knew anything at all about the subject you are attempting to discuss.

It really doesn't. Just because you make a statement doesn't make it true. I have backed up my statements with quotes and evidence from the situation. You back them up with "clearly you don't know what you're talking about". If you'd like to explain how the fact that over twice as many non-black firefighters also weren't eligible for promotion supports bias, I'd love to hear it. But an actual explanation requires more than just you "saying it's true".

They did not throw them out based on race. They threw them out as a result of disparities in scoring. The city suspected flaws, the Board of Industrial and Organizational Psychology confirmed problems with the validity, and then the scores were thrown out. They were not thrown out prior to confirmation. Had the disparity in scores not pointed to possible bias, this would never have become an issue.

The "disparities" only included racial distinctions. They did not suspect flaws, they suspected a lawsuit from the black firefighters. Again, please actually read the articles before trying to make a worthwhile statement.

The bolded section of your post is also very clearly and easily shown to be simply false. Read the articles first. It would help your case enormously.

I know testing procedures, how to determine validity and reliability for any instrument, sources of bias, and how to insure that an instrument contains cross cultural validity. Things that you obviously have no knowledge of. Given that, you cannot say that I am wrong, as you have not seen the test, and even if you had the test in front of you at this very moment, would not be able to determine it's reliability nor its validity. Therefore, for you to claim that it was when you don't have the test, and do not have the knowledge necessary to make that determination, is nothing less than absurd. I can make a probable determination based on the information given due to the fact that I have extensive education and training in the area. You do not. Therefore, you cannot even make a probable determination,

And I did not disagree with that statement. So obviously, if you believe the city should have given another test, you are also admitting the possibility of flaws in the first test that led to the disparate results. Otherwise, there is no need for a second test.

Strangely enough, I rest my case based on your own quote. Your "knowledge" gives you no advantage over anyone else in this thread unless, as I have said before, you know this test, how it was evaluated, administered, interpreted, and anything specifically about firefighting. You do not have training in the area that is being discussed, please stop claiming a superficial superiority over anyone else in this thread. All it does is make you appear vain, childish, and stubborn.

 

[Jiro]

Quality not quantity.

yes that's precisely what i'm saying. the higher quality education they have, the less likely they will join the firemen club. They would be working for something much more lucrative than fireman job.

 

[naisho]

If we delve too deep into semantics we will never meet an agreement somewhere, it will just end up looping off arguments where we have no clue, evidence, or even an inkling of analytical backgrounds of black/white/yellow/brown/green/orange people that are involved in this.

There are variables that would be nice if we had them to use, but for the time being to judge them off this based on assumptions is hard to resolve.

It's like as jillio already once said, this test doesn't represent differences between one state and another's policies.
But the point is we are all trying to base a conclusion off some leverage of the knowledge that's out there already.
Meaning the prime methods of firefighting, and common knowledge necessary for a promotion in CT can possibly share some common boundaries with another state's exam.

We will have to keep looping in circles unless we have the actual Supreme Court documentation on hand right now, or other firefighters who can namely explain some of the chief ideals behind a promotion test.

 

[lsfoster]

I know. Jillio says that the test is invalid already based on the simple fact that race was not evenly distributed. In theory, a black person is not different from a white person, so the results should have the same demographics as the test takers. About 25% of the test takers were black, so 25% of the promotions should have gone to black people. She says that there should be no reason why it shouldn't be 25% of the black people getting the promotion, therefore the test is invalid. I'm saying that the lack of a higher quality education due to parents' low income could be a reason.

(BTW, I did the math.... in order to represent the sample of the test takers, only 4 black people had to be promoted.... And if you take account the standard deviation, 0 is feasible...)

Well clearly your math must be wrong. That can be argued by all the room for interpretation there is in all of this. :roll:



Also, to argue that since 25% are black that 25% of the promotions should be black people just lumps everyone together based on one thing: race. And I don't think that judging people based solely on their race is right or fair. But that must be because I can't see past the race issue....

 

[Jiro]

or other firefighters who can namely explain some of the chief ideals behind a promotion test.

which is why I said - "it's not the test, it's the society."

 

[jillio]

That's too bad then. Everybody's got different background and different life story. This test does not care. Just your knowledge, skill and competency. You either can do it or not. simple as that. Sure - someone would have an upper-hand but then... life's a bitch, eh? like being a bigger animal in Africa.

Your misunderstanding of the concept is astounding.:roll: