Respect for all

Jillo people like you scared parents off. Jillo why does it have to be your way or no way. Jillo why are you just so angry at us oral parents. It is not like your son suffered at our hands so what is your trip. I completely understand about deaf adults like Shel and Cheri being upset because they had a hard time but Jillo what is your deal.


jillio said:
That would be an assumption that is dependent upon the operational definition of success. And success in one isolated area does not guarantee success in all areas. And the gentleman to which you referrred stated that he was happy based on his personal concept of happiness. You are assuming that means that he is also happy based on your personal concept of happiness, when, in fact, the two of you may be talking about 2 different concepts.
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jillio said:
He still, from what you are saying, sees the need for sign language in his interaction with his friend, whether he sees him on a daily basis, a weekly basis, or once every 10 years. Therefore, sign is useful to him. You continue to say that your children have no need for sign. If they need to communicate with signing friends, then they definately have a need for sign.
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Don't you get it. So they need sign language now in their teenage years. I don't have a problem with that. You just need to be right and then does that complete your life that my children have deaf friends and need some sign language skills to communicate with them. Will that make you feel better about yourself and your choices and decisions you have made. I know many oral deaf teenagers that do not know any sign language, they still have complete lives with friends and social things.
This gentleman I meet today does not know any sign language does that mean he is not living a complete life.
 
Jillo, if I can respect you for the choices you have made in your son's life why is it that you cannot respect mine. I have stated many many times that if my children want to drop their voice or even just learn more sign language it is OK with me. Why do we have get your permission or anyone elses. I have no problem with parents deciding to raise their child in an oral, TC, cued speech, asl only, or even in Bi-Bi approach. Have I ever said that the way you raised your child was wrong.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Jillo people like you scared parents off. Jillo why does it have to be your way or no way. Jillo why are you just so angry at us oral parents. It is not like your son suffered at our hands so what is your trip. I completely understand about deaf adults like Shel and Cheri being upset because they had a hard time but Jillo what is your deal.
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It does not have to be my way or no way. That is an assumption that is inherent in the oralist philosophy, and I am not an oralist. Nor am I angry at oral parents, but many children who were raised within an oral only environment are angry at their parents, and I listen to the anger on a daily basis. ALL deaf individuals have suffered under the oralist philosophy, no matter what their communication choice is. The oralist philosophy is responsible for the social attitudes that continue to be responsible for the discrimination against deaf. I have empathy for those individuals that have suffered: that is my deal. I have a moral obligation to speak out against any practice that perpetuates the stereotypes and the discrimination because I have a son that belongs to the community that is being stereotyped and discriminated against: that is my deal. I listen to what adults like Cheri and Shel and numerous other deaf adults who have experienced it tell me, and I use that information to take action that will improve the situation for deaf children now: that is my deal. I dislike deaf children being prevented socially and academically from realizing their full potential: that is my deal. I have an ethical distaste for ethnocentricity: that is my deal. Shall I go on?
 
I was raised oral. I have moderate to profound hearing loss and my parents raised me to speak and I went to speech therapy. I learned ASL in 1989 went to a Deaf school in my high school years.

Do I regret her teaching me to be oral....NO

Do I regret my Mom not learning signs....NO

Am I upset with my Mom in any way she raised me...NO

My Mother did what she though was best for me and she did a Damn good job.
She gave me the option to learn ASL and to attend to a Deaf school and to learn sign language.. I was not ready for it. I have now learn to embrace both worlds as my own...

The oral skills have helped me to find jobs and communicate with people that are oral and doesn't know sign language. I can not expect everyone to learn ASL just for me, myself and I. It would be extremely selfish of me to expect that from my job site or from the grocery store clerk.

I am a strong believer of TC. ASL and Oral combined.

Jackie I applaud you for raising your child/children You are their mother and no one else can tell you how to raise your child. Due to it is YOUR child no one else. I'm sure they will grow up to be fine adults.

If you don't mind me asking how old is your deaf child??
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Jillo, if I can respect you for the choices you have made in your son's life why is it that you cannot respect mine. I have stated many many times that if my children want to drop their voice or even just learn more sign language it is OK with me. Why do we have get your permission or anyone elses. I have no problem with parents deciding to raise their child in an oral, TC, cued speech, asl only, or even in Bi-Bi approach. Have I ever said that the way you raised your child was wrong.
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Well, yes, jackie, actually you have. And the choices you make for your children are yours to make and to live with. Just as the choices I made for my son are mine to have made and to live with. No one is asking permission, nor is anyone implying that permission is needed. You are the one that keeps holding your children up as an example to support your oral viewpoint. I don't use my son as support for my view, I use research and experience within the deaf community. Your decision for your children are really none of my concern. And I have moved beyond the decisions I made for my son, and am now applying my experience, my knowledge, and efforts to that which will improve the educational system for deaf children as a group. My son is an adult, he makes his own decisions at this point in time. I can't put him back in first grade and start all over again. However, I can devote my time and effort to advocacy for those methods that have been shown to give the greatest benefit educationally and socially for the deaf children of today and tommorrow.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Don't you get it. So they need sign language now in their teenage years. I don't have a problem with that. You just need to be right and then does that complete your life that my children have deaf friends and need some sign language skills to communicate with them. Will that make you feel better about yourself and your choices and decisions you have made. I know many oral deaf teenagers that do not know any sign language, they still have complete lives with friends and social things.
This gentleman I meet today does not know any sign language does that mean he is not living a complete life.
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No, jackie, I am simply pointing out that, in one post, you say your chidlren have no need for sign language, and then, in another post, talk about situations in which they most definately do need sign language. It can't be both ways.
 
jillio said:
It does not have to be my way or no way.

You just stated that it does not have to be your way. But then you say thay all deaf children have to some sort of sign language skills. You are accusing oral parents like me that is has to be our way but I have never ever said that all deaf children should have some sort of oral communication skills.

That is an assumption that is inherent in the oralist philosophy, and I am not an oralist. Nor am I angry at oral parents, but many children who were raised within an oral only environment are angry at their parents, and I listen to the anger on a daily basis.

ALL deaf individuals have suffered under the oralist philosophy, no matter what their communication choice is.
How do you know that all deaf indiviudal have suffered from the oralist philosphy. Have you talked to all deaf individual. I know you haven't so you are making assumptions without having all the facts.
The oralist philosophy is responsible for the social attitudes that continue to be responsible for the discrimination against deaf. I have empathy for those individuals that have suffered: that is my deal. I have a moral obligation to speak out against any practice that perpetuates the stereotypes and the discrimination because I have a son that belongs to the community that is being stereotyped and discriminated against: that is my deal. I listen to what adults like Cheri and Shel and numerous other deaf adults who have experienced it tell me, and I use that information to take action that will improve the situation for deaf children now: that is my deal. I dislike deaf children being prevented socially and academically from realizing their full potential: that is my deal. I have an ethical distaste for ethnocentricity: that is my deal. Shall I go on?
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You say you take action. Could you explain to me how you are taking action. By scaring parents away from this site. Please explain how you are changing things. Please go on. Maybe I should have sent my children to that deaf school in Arizona where the brightest kid couldn't get into college because he has a fourth grade reading level. Unlike mine who both have a 10th grade reading level and are still in high school.
I know that I do take action especially since I am in early start. I get to help parents in the beginning. With the support of my school district, I started a program where there was no program. I continue to further my education and stay on top of all the lastest information. I do not ever assume I know everythbing.
Just you Jillo I also will make sure that my children will meet their full potential. I know that we are on the right road since they are able to receive the same education that all kids do in our area. I also hate ethnocentricity. I do not believe that my way is the best nor the only way to educate all deaf children. It was the best for my children but is not best for all deaf child.
 
Babyblue said:
I was raised oral. I have moderate to profound hearing loss and my parents raised me to speak and I went to speech therapy. I learned ASL in 1989 went to a Deaf school in my high school years.

Do I regret her teaching me to be oral....NO

Do I regret my Mom not learning signs....NO

Am I upset with my Mom in any way she raised me...NO

My Mother did what she though was best for me and she did a Damn good job.
She gave me the option to learn ASL and to attend to a Deaf school and to learn sign language.. I was not ready for it. I have now learn to embrace both worlds as my own...

The oral skills have helped me to find jobs and communicate with people that are oral and doesn't know sign language. I can not expect everyone to learn ASL just for me, myself and I. It would be extremely selfish of me to expect that from my job site or from the grocery store clerk.

I am a strong believer of TC. ASL and Oral combined.

Jackie I applaud you for raising your child/children You are their mother and no one else can tell you how to raise your child. Due to it is YOUR child no one else. I'm sure they will grow up to be fine adults.

If you don't mind me asking how old is your deaf child??
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Thank you Thank you Thank you,

Listening to you is the reason I made many of the decision I did for my children. Just like your mom, I have given my children the choice if they now want to go to a high school that has deaf students. My daughter words to me is that high school is where her heart is because of her friends but her high school is where her brain and educate are.
The only difference between your mom and me is that I have taken a couple of ASL classes. My daughter would prefer that I not know any sign language because it is like a secret language for her and some of her friends.
I want my children to be able to go into their community if possible and not have to write notes to clerks and waiters. I wanted to them have a good education.
Another reason for wanting my children to be oral is to have more options.
My daughter is 17 years old and my son is 15 years.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool.
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Please think about all posts.....At the start, all have respect for you and other hearing parents. Even with disagreement, almost all have respect. Most "agree to disagree and treat each other with respect". A lot of ADers think CI is a "very valuable tool". With respect and sincerity, maybe you think too much about the negative posts and fights and then respond so the fight continues. If you stop posting in a thread, you don't lose because AD isn't a contest.

:)
 
jackiesolorzano said:
You say you take action. Could you explain to me how you are taking action. By scaring parents away from this site. Please explain how you are changing things. Please go on. Maybe I should have sent my children to that deaf school in Arizona where the brightest kid couldn't get into college because he has a fourth grade reading level. Unlike mine who both have a 10th grade reading level and are still in high school.
I know that I do take action especially since I am in early start. I get to help parents in the beginning. With the support of my school district, I started a program where there was no program. I continue to further my education and stay on top of all the lastest information. I do not ever assume I know everythbing.
Just you Jillo I also will make sure that my children will meet their full potential. I know that we are on the right road since they are able to receive the same education that all kids do in our area. I also hate ethnocentricity. I do not believe that my way is the best nor the only way to educate all deaf children. It was the best for my children but is not best for all deaf child.
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Easy, jackie. When you get overly excited, you begin to post insulting comments, and that is what angers people. Likewise, you are making some accusations that are totally unfounded, and unappreciated, as well.

Perhaps you are not aware of the problems with grade level scoring, and the fact that it is very deceptive when used to determine function. A student who scores at a 10th grade level means only that they scored the same as an average student in the 10th grade. That does not mean that they are capable of doing 10th grade work, or reading and comprehending 10th grade curriculum. If the average student that is used for comparison is only reading at an 8th grade curriculum level, then the scores are deceptive. Grade level scoring has numerous weaknesses. And before you blow up, I did not say that your chidlren are not reading as you have claimed. I used the 10th grade as an example because that is the grade level you cited. I amsimply saying that a child that scores a 10th grade reading level is not necessarily able to do 10th grade equivilent work, nor are they neccessarily reading 10th grade material. Anyone familiar with testing and interpretaion of those tests will say the same thing.

I have already cited my activities. I see no need to repeat myself. Nor do I assume that I know everything. Given that I am a Ph.D. candidate, I, too, am continuing to learn. Even once that Ph.D. has been conferred, I will not know everything. However, I do have confidence in what I do know, because my knowledge has a solid foundation in empirical evidence, scientific support, theory in practice, anecdotal evidence, and the knowledge of many,many others who have gone before me.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
I have a question for all. If I can respect people's choices to just use ASL then why can't people respect my choices to raise my deaf teenagers orally and have them implanted. I do not understand why some people think they have the right to tell me that it was not my right to implant my children. What is happening is that a lot of you are scaring new parents away from seeking information from people in the Deaf culture. Why can we not just agree to disagree and treat each other with respect. Why can't people just admit that cochlear implants can be a very valuable tool.
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Personally, I think that a parent should just educate themselves on all the viewpoints and options and then make the choice that is right for their circumstances, family and for the child. Education is the key here.

Also, I think parents need to accept that not everyone will agree with what they do, in fact some people might violently disagree with them. This holds true for many other choices that a parent may make. I wouldn't waste time trying to get validation from people who for their own personal reasons (and these are understandable in many cases) have adopted the point of view that they have. I would seek to learn from them, yes and to possibly modify your parenting approach but to follow their prescriptions of how to raise your child to the letter? No. You know your child best and as you have seen there is a range of feelings within the broader deaf community. Feelings are also fluid and change over time together with changes in the community itself.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
I AM YELLING NOW IN CASE YOU WANTED TO KNOW. YOU SAY ONE THING AND THEN GO BACK AND SAY ANOTHER. SO YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST COCHLEAR IMPLANTS. BUT LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID THAT DRILLING A HOLE IN A DEAF PERSON HEAD IS WRONG. JUST ADMITTED YOU ARE AGAINST COCHLEAR IMPLANTS. IF YOU THINK COCHLEAR IMPLANTS ARE GOING AWAY YOU ARE SO WRONG. COCHLEAR IMPLANTS ARE HERE TO STAY. I SEEN HOW WONDERFUL A TOOL COCHLEAR IMPLANTS CAN BE IF YOU USED CORRECTLY. I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY SHEL THINKS THE WAY SHE DOES. SHE SUFFERED THROUGH THE ORAL METHOD WITHOUT HAVING A TOOL LIKE A COCHLEAR IMPLANT. NOT THE SHE NEEDED BUT IF SHE WAS GOING TO BE ORAL IT WOULD HAVE HELPED. I THINK IF SHEL DOESN'T WANT TO USE HER VOICE, IT IS JUST FINE HER DECISION TO MAKE. BUT YOU JILLO YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL BUT YOU DON'T. I KNOW THAT I DON'T KNOW IT ALL NOR WOULD I EVER PRETEND I DO.
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Stop yelling and go back and read the post. I was talking about trephining as a treatment for mental illness. I said that drilling a hole in someone's head to release evil spirits once was accepted as a treatment for mental illness, but we now know that it is not a viable treatment because it usally resulted in the patient's death. I did not say anything about cochlear implants in my post, nor was I referring to cochlear implants. I was comparing trephining as a once accepted treatment for mental illness, and the old belief that oral only education was the best for deaf children. We have proven both to be misconceptions.

Please, jackie, read what was posted, and not what you think is posted. And stop yelling at me just because you didn't undertand what I said.
 
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jackiesolorzano said:
Thank you Thank you Thank you,

Listening to you is the reason I made many of the decision I did for my children. Just like your mom, I have given my children the choice if they now want to go to a high school that has deaf students. My daughter words to me is that high school is where her heart is because of her friends but her high school is where her brain and educate are.
The only difference between your mom and me is that I have taken a couple of ASL classes. My daughter would prefer that I not know any sign language because it is like a secret language for her and some of her friends.
I want my children to be able to go into their community if possible and not have to write notes to clerks and waiters. I wanted to them have a good education.
Another reason for wanting my children to be oral is to have more options.
My daughter is 17 years old and my son is 15 years.
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Now your children are old enough and know you support them in anyway..just as my Mom did so I don't see anything wrong...

When I attended to deaf school I had to Mainstream to a public school due my grade level was high. I Took Math, English, and History at the Public school and my extra curriculum at the deaf school. I enjoyed being with my deaf friends and I also enjoyed being with my hearing friends.

I don't see anything wrong with how you are raising your children...



As for the others....

She has made her choice.. you guys can talk until you are blue in the face. It will not change her mind it will not sway her one bit.

It is not a contest....... is her choice on what she chose to do. It is her life and her children's' life. She is learning signs her children are signing. They are oral.

I'm sorry for some of the Deaf Adults that had a bad experience on how they grew up... but bashing Jackie is not going to change your life nor per sway her to change.
 
R2D2 said:
Personally, I think that a parent should just educate themselves on all the viewpoints and options and then make the choice that is right for their circumstances, family and for the child. Education is the key here.

Also, I think parents need to accept that not everyone will agree with what they do, in fact some people might violently disagree with them. This holds true for many other choices that a parent may make. I wouldn't waste time trying to get validation from people who for their own personal reasons (and these are understandable in many cases) have adopted the point of view that they have. I would seek to learn from them, yes and to possibly modify your parenting approach but to follow their prescriptions of how to raise your child to the letter? No. You know your child best and as you have seen there is a range of feelings within the broader deaf community. Feelings are also fluid and change over time together with changes in the community itself.
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Couldn't agree with you more on that one R2D2.
 
R2D2 said:
Personally, I think that a parent should just educate themselves on all the viewpoints and options and then make the choice that is right for their circumstances, family and for the child. Education is the key here.

Also, I think parents need to accept that not everyone will agree with what they do, in fact some people might violently disagree with them. This holds true for many other choices that a parent may make. I wouldn't waste time trying to get validation from people who for their own personal reasons (and these are understandable in many cases) have adopted the point of view that they have. I would seek to learn from them, yes and to possibly modify your parenting approach but to follow their prescriptions of how to raise your child to the letter? No. You know your child best and as you have seen there is a range of feelings within the broader deaf community. Feelings are also fluid and change over time together with changes in the community itself.
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Great post, R2D2. A lot of other great posts also by other ADers - too many to quote! :)
 
You know, drilling a hole in someone's head to release the evil spirits used to be an accepted way to treat mental illness, too. Thank God, we learned that was not the best way to address the problem. Same thing with oral. It used to be accepted as the best way to treat the problem of deafness. We now know that it is not the way to address the problem. Trephining killed people, and oralism restricts people. The moral of the story is, don't drill holes in people's heads, and don't restrict deaf children to oral only environments.

Here is a copy of my post that you were yelling about, with the words bolded that indicate very clearly what I was talking about. Please read it and show me where I said anything about CI, or where I was unclear about my reference to trephining and my comparison of hanging onto outdated methods of treatment.

Geeze! Talk about a lack of respect!
 
Babyblue said:
Now your children are old enough and know you support them in anyway..just as my Mom did so I don't see anything wrong...

When I attended to deaf school I had to Mainstream to a public school due my grade level was high. I Took Math, English, and History at the Public school and my extra curriculum at the deaf school. I enjoyed being with my deaf friends and I also enjoyed being with my hearing friends.

I don't see anything wrong with how you are raising your children...



As for the others....

She has made her choice.. you guys can talk until you are blue in the face. It will not change her mind it will not sway her one bit.

It is not a contest....... is her choice on what she chose to do. It is her life and her children's' life. She is learning signs her children are signing. They are oral.

I'm sorry for some of the Deaf Adults that had a bad experience on how they grew up... but bashing Jackie is not going to change your life nor per sway her to change.
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That is just the point, Babyblue. No one is trying to change her mind. We are simply validating our own choices and points of view.
 
i am not against oral.. but I believe all deaf should have Total Communications.....both oral and ASL....
 
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