Respect for all

[jasin]

U said it was deaf people screwing up with Deaf ed?

My original post had to do with me not deaf people in general, but it does touch on that as well. Its my second post that was addressing deaf people and how their messing things up. Don't confuse the two ok? Oh, and I did not just say deaf ed I said culture, world, etc.. many different things. Please take me in context.

 

[shel90]

My original post had to do with me not deaf people in general, but it does touch on that as well. Its my second post that was addressing deaf people and how their messing things up. Don't confuse the two ok? Oh, and I did not just say deaf ed I said culture, world, etc.. many different things. Please take me in context.

It is kinda hard without a more detailed explaination which is why I am asking u these questions. I wouldnt want to misread you and jump to conclusions.

My experience with the Deaf community and deaf people has been different from yours which is why I dont agree with you on your opinion.

 

[Tousi]

I want to amend the last line of my post #396: I know why Moores can get away with this without consequence; it is because he wrote a book; therefore, it isn't in a peer-reviewed journal where he'd most likely catch hell for "changing" (read falsified?) history.

 

[jillio]

Hehe, Jillio, I think those few deaf extremists have their hearts in the right place; however, methinks that's not gonna get the job done.

Just as an aside, I don't know if I am a rare breed but my "English skills" such as they are, came from constantly reading on my own as I was coming up. I was involved in sports and the normal host of other things (meaning I wasn't a nerd, lol) coming up but was always reading something when I could. I think I achieved literacy this way vs auditory training and whatever it is they do for strict oralists these days. Remember, also, I grew up in the 50's.

Oh, and how is it Moores can get away from his blatant coloring, defamation, etc of Edward Miner Gallaudet?

I think that those with the highest literacy skills in both reading comprehension and writing are those that read. I know it sound simplistic, and as if it is a no brainer, but it really is a more complicated process than it sounds. If one has achieved linguisitic competency on a whole language, conceptual basis (as in ASL as the L1), then one is able to transfer that competency to an L2 language. Viola! Reading comprehension. ASL is not responsible for low literacy. Language delays are responsible for poor literacy, because someone with language delays cannot comprehend completely what is said to them, much less what it written in an abstract form.

I'm not certain how it is that Moores is getting away with this blatant attempt to rewrite history according to his own fantasy, but perhaps we should consult the publisher of his text.

 

[deafbajagal]

I think that those with the highest literacy skills in both reading comprehension and writing are those that read. I know it sound simplistic, and as if it is a no brainer, but it really is a more complicated process than it sounds. If one has achieved linguisitic competency on a whole language, conceptual basis (as in ASL as the L1), then one is able to transfer that competency to an L2 language. Viola! Reading comprehension. ASL is not responsible for low literacy. Language delays are responsible for poor literacy, because someone with language delays cannot comprehend completely what is said to them, much less what it written in an abstract form.

You, go girl! Great explanation!

 

[jillio]

I think that those with the highest literacy skills in both reading comprehension and writing are those that read. I know it sound simplistic, and as if it is a no brainer, but it really is a more complicated process than it sounds. If one has achieved linguisitic competency on a whole language, conceptual basis (as in ASL as the L1), then one is able to transfer that competency to an L2 language. Viola! Reading comprehension. ASL is not responsible for low literacy. Language delays are responsible for poor literacy, because someone with language delays cannot comprehend completely what is said to them, much less what it written in an abstract form.

You, go girl! Great explanation!

 

[Grummer]

cant' buy it

Change the norms. Which, I think, is something that the Deaf Culture is attempting to do. But, in attempting to leave such norms as the "oralists" have shackeled them with for so many years, they are then seen as being exclusionary and closed. That is exactly what Deaf Prez Now back in 1988 was all about. Throwing off the shackles forced upon the deaf by the hearing and becoming empowered and self determining.

Sorry but i cant buy the whole idea of this. the ideas behind 'Deaf culture' demands some sort of separationalist moves. I mean they want separate schools, and if you look closer to the puesdo intellectuals writings you would find it is all they discuss - schools, language and nothing else. Deaf education doesnt end at the day they first start work in the 'real world'. So i highly doubt 'changing the norms' is on the agenda, for one big reason i say that is Deaf people tends to replicate the stratification for certain social traits follows the 'norms' of pecking order. In other words, judgemental behaviours are well and truely alive in Deaf events, as does it carries out in jokes, table conversations, sports factions, petty clubroom politics, 'private lives' outside clubrooms, affairs, workplace politics and of course, 'community welfare' politics. They all mimick the same practices of exclusions as the hearings, 'only in Deaf style', its not empowering, its just displacement of power handling being shifted to those who 'speaks for the community (sic). Its like just replacing the [oral, hearing] speaking to the [Deaf, and mainly English-literate - Usaully formally oral deafs-because they have English) signing. Its function to control d/Deaf people still holds, or maybe abit more looser - but that's only becuase Society have let people to be more mobile just as the labour market has opened up. Competition is more 'open' to anymore abut at same time it has gone up several levels. It is this kind of deception is at play, many people fails to see it, including d/Deaf people. Changing norms isnt as simple as declaring sign language to be use in schools.
I hope I am not being to simplistic while at same time I have to, to help get the point across.

I apologise for a really crap writing style here I havent giving much time to articulate this stance, but I still don't believe that proponents of Deaf culture have any real intention to change norms. Rather, it is highly likely to normalise Deaf culture than to actually challenge the norm per se. Similar experience of this has already happened, Black rights, has gained grounds, but the ones who are succeeding are the ones with more 'whites attitude' inside. The only difference its the skin colour, the norms hasn't changed much or at all, the 'thinking' the 'beliefs' or 'appropriate action' in society' still follows the dominant ideas of everything.

 

[Grummer]

Yeah, thats really what I want. Some hearie teaching me their culture and their language and their methods of communication. I already went through that when I was in grade school. Go back an reread my original post for the downsides on that.

I doubt hearing people even taught us hearing culture either, they assumed we'd figure it out ourselves. We were left in the 'dark' so to speak. Hearing cutlreu , like white culture is 'dominant' as at same time, many of those follows it are nto ever aware of it as a 'culture' , rather just a 'right path in life' for success , nothing more and nothing less. Assuming is a very dangerous form of thinking.Norms has it, 'granted' to provide permission to assume. Look at where the 'normal soceity' as gotten us to ? say for instance look at the greenhouse/oil crisis the human race is facing, all becuase we were too complacant to think driving is 'alright'. I suppose you could say i have almost made the word 'assume' interchangeable with 'ignore'...

Also I would even bet we , Deaf people, should/could be the ones writing and explaining what is Hearing culture, in the same way as black people have been able to show what is white culture. (well I cant say who, i dont know who but im sure there are examples somewhere, just im real tired right now to bother)

just my 2 cents

 

[jillio]

Sorry but i cant buy the whole idea of this. the ideas behind 'Deaf culture' demands some sort of separationalist moves. I mean they want separate schools, and if you look closer to the puesdo intellectuals writings you would find it is all they discuss - schools, language and nothing else. Deaf education doesnt end at the day they first start work in the 'real world'. So i highly doubt 'changing the norms' is on the agenda, for one big reason i say that is Deaf people tends to replicate the stratification for certain social traits follows the 'norms' of pecking order. In other words, judgemental behaviours are well and truely alive in Deaf events, as does it carries out in jokes, table conversations, sports factions, petty clubroom politics, 'private lives' outside clubrooms, affairs, workplace politics and of course, 'community welfare' politics. They all mimick the same practices of exclusions as the hearings, 'only in Deaf style', its not empowering, its just displacement of power handling being shifted to those who 'speaks for the community (sic). Its like just replacing the [oral, hearing] speaking to the [Deaf, and mainly English-literate - Usaully formally oral deafs-because they have English) signing. Its function to control d/Deaf people still holds, or maybe abit more looser - but that's only becuase Society have let people to be more mobile just as the labour market has opened up. Competition is more 'open' to anymore abut at same time it has gone up several levels. It is this kind of deception is at play, many people fails to see it, including d/Deaf people. Changing norms isnt as simple as declaring sign language to be use in schools.
I hope I am not being to simplistic while at same time I have to, to help get the point across.

I apologise for a really crap writing style here I havent giving much time to articulate this stance, but I still don't believe that proponents of Deaf culture have any real intention to change norms. Rather, it is highly likely to normalise Deaf culture than to actually challenge the norm per se. Similar experience of this has already happened, Black rights, has gained grounds, but the ones who are succeeding are the ones with more 'whites attitude' inside. The only difference its the skin colour, the norms hasn't changed much or at all, the 'thinking' the 'beliefs' or 'appropriate action' in society' still follows the dominant ideas of everything.

But grummer, all cultures change. It is the nature of the beast. If they don't change, they die out. Deaf cuture today is not exactly the same as Deaf culture 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. Deaf culture cannot completely isolate its members, nor has Deaf culture ever sought to completely isolate its members. To doso would be to create a situation where neither individual nor group could survive. Contact with the predominanat culture is necessary and constant. Therefore, cultural contact creates change. That change can be undirected, as int he case of oralism that was forced upon the community, or it can be directed, as in the case of greater acceptance of CI. The Deaf community does not need to refuse change, they simply need to make certain that the inevitable change is self directed, not forced.