Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[shel90]

Yes in 1700, there was an ASL only program for the deaf, 85 percent of those deaf children had no spoken language, that is how oralism came in. I've done my research on Deaf Culture history.

I'm glad that you don't agree with the use of ASL only program, I trust that your school program is using speech with those deaf children.

I was wondering if it is possible to move speech class to after school so that the deaf children don't get pull out of class for an hour or 30 mins everyday, so that they won't miss anything important in the classroom. It is just a suggestion.

Problem is that many of our deaf kids live so far from the school..some even 1 hour away. They need to go home. However, for those in the dorms, they have speech activities for the ones who are interested.

The speech classes are never during Language Arts, Math, Science or Social studies.

Today, I witnessed one older student chatting with his teacher using spoken language.

Just when it is time to teach all these content area subjects when full access to info is readily available to all students, ASL is used and then English in print cuz all of the kids have equal access to it in print.

 

[shel90]

Yes, Cheri is correct that there're school for deaf and dumb who teachs to develop sign language only. It's not just America but Europe as well.I support sign language with speak on same time including speech class instead of just sign language without speak or just oral without sign language.

Can u name those programs in America cuz I have never heard of ASL only programs without teaching English nor speech? Thanks

 

[shel90]

Yes, sign language is their first language before English language, that's why they have one hearing teacher and one deaf teacher in class room. It helps deaf children to understand what difference is about and know where they really are. Their education is focus on literacy but they do have speech therapy.

I would say yes... most is HOH. They attend "hearing" school. Yes, they have hearing children to involve with deaf children to learn each other where they come from... Some hearing children like to learn sign and some deaf children like to learn speak. They learn fast each other than we teach them... Interesting. They do itself automaic with their own moviation.

Deaf children watch the different movement between hearing and deaf teacher in class room. Some of them said that they feel more easier to understand with deaf teacher than hearing teacher. Interesting. I would hearing teacher to accept the deaf's own language.

Pls reread my post that your reply was in reference to...I was asking about hearing kids.

 

[shel90]

Do you mean that teachers use ASL without speak to deaf children?

I would say that there're common in European countries to use sign language with speak on the same time. I just can't follow anyone who use just sign language without speak.

See the example of BSL like that...
http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/48529-coming-out-but-not-what-you-think.html

There is no spoken form for ASL so of course, we dont speak while using ASL. We keep both languages separate so the kids can get a correct model of both languages.

 

[shel90]

Curious - you use ASL without speak? Is it you feel comfortable to use ASL without speak?

Do you use ASL without speak when you are with deaf people and use speak without sign language when you with your family?

I use sign language with speak with deaf people and my children because I want them know what I am.

I never use my voice when signing in ASL. If I want to use my voice while signing, I change to SEE.

I always keep both languages separate. All of my deaf friends dont use their voices while signing.

I also keep both languages separate with my kids. I made the mistake of using both with my daughter when I first learned ASL..she is not fluent in it at all but since I stopped using my voice while signing to her 3 years ago, I notice that her receptive skills in ASL has improved tremendously.

My son is bilingual..he signs without voice and uses his voice without signing.

 

[shel90]

Again, Bi-Bi is not ASL only. It is bilingual, meaning 2 languages (English and ASL) and bicultural, meaning 2 cultures (hearing and Deaf).

Right..otherwise, it wouldnt be called BiBi.

 

[jillio]

Right..otherwise, it wouldnt be called BiBi.

Bingo!

 

[Angel]

Angel, I have enjoyed your comments today. I see your true love and accepting of others.

Thank you Vallee.

 

[jillio]

British Sign Language :: Information, Resources, Online Course.

If you will go to this website, you will see a video in BSL that uses no voice. He is signing BSL in the same way that ASL is signed.

 

[loml]

Loml, I really respect your love for CS. There are so many ways to educate others. 99% is the love to teaching and education, the rest is material. I hope I have just a fraction of your passion in my classroom.

vallee - I thank you sincerely for your kind words. I would believe that you yourself are a passionate teacher.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

I am deaf and learning sign. I hope other deaf individuals will be patient and understanding as I learn. Just like the hearing as they repeat to me if I ask. I guess we pick the people that understand and accept us the most.

Best of luck learning ASL! Hope you'll find it enjoyable. Perhaps your daughter could do this with you. It'll widen your circle, I would guess.

Deaf individuals, in general, are more patient with newbie signers, so don't worry on that score. However, it has been my experience that hearing people, who are asked to repeat, are often not the most patient.

How often do you get that comment 'never mind', 'I'll tell you later' etc?
We get that sort of comment so many time.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

British Sign Language :: Information, Resources, Online Course.

If you will go to this website, you will see a video in BSL that uses no voice. He is signing BSL in the same way that ASL is signed.

No, there're difference between ASL and BSL. Don't forget that I born and raised in England. Many Europeans know American way of use sign language only without speaking.

BSL - sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice).
ASL - sign language without speak (no even speaking).

I withnessed several Americans in real life here in Germany. They use ASL without speaking, just sign language without lip movement. It's hard for me to watch their just signing. I visited USA last July 2007 and met ADers in real life and told them that their way of sign language with speaking (I am not interesting either they use voice or not) is the same as many European countries. We understood each other prefect only when they speak on the same time as signing. ADers, I met in real life give me right that some American's way for use sign language without speaking. They do sometimes but with me, they signing with speak and also other ADers as well.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Can u name those programs in America cuz I have never heard of ASL only programs without teaching English nor speech? Thanks

Huh?

Could you please show me where I mention English in my previous posts? It could be that I overlook my post? I only know that I said that the school for Deaf & Dumb develop sign language only which mean is no speech therapy including.

Of course there're Deaf and mute children in the world who don't know that they can train to speak or being lipread until they learn from Germany that deaf children can learn to speak with the help from speech therapy.

Anyway, I met Americans in real life and told me that they use ASL without speaking which we Europeans doesn't. We prefer to use speak (no matter either with or without voice) and sign on the same time.

Okay here is link... Deaf history 1800’s

Horace Mann, 1796-1859, was a believer in state school. In 1837, he became secretary of the first Massachusetts school board. “Two years later, he brought about the opening of the first American Teacher’s Training College at Lexington, Ky.” He went to Europe to visit schools for the Deaf and was amazed to see how well Deaf children were lipreading and using speech in the German schools. Returning to America, he published a report of his findings. This interested parents who began to demand speech for their Deaf children.


Samuel Gridley Howe, 1801-1876 - Director of the Massachusetts for the Blind. He taught a Deaf-blind child by means of the manual alphabet. Howe accompanied Horace Mann to Europe to visit the Deaf schools. In 1864, “Howe and other interested men petitioned the Massachusetts General Court for an act to incorporate an oral school for the Deaf in the state.” “It was defeated through the influence of the school in Hartford.”

Jacobo Rodriguez Pereira, 1715-1780 - The greatest teacher of the Deaf in France. Pereira never had more than twelve pupils at one time. He offered two courses. “For the poorer and more numerous clients, he gave a short course of fifteen months which covered the current necessities for living.” The wealthy and more intelligent stayed four or five years. They were given a superior course. These pupils became successful and famous. He was very secret about his work that even his family did not know his methods. When he died, no one knew how to continue his work. His motto was “There will be no more Deaf mutes. There will be Deaf speaking ones.”


Deaf History

Again, Cheri is correct about oral education was first founded in Germany before spread out to many countries in the world. What Cheri said mean is speech therapy - training to speak and read other lips, etc. I really have no idea why you brought those subject "English" up. Of course we learn how to write English. Its sign language development without speech development, we are refer to.

Another link

Ohio School for the Deaf - History

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Yep and deaf-mute. You might heard of Samuel Heinicke, he's a german in 1721 his method was oral, he strongly opposed ASL because he met a young deaf boy who had only knew signs and had no spoken speech, he taught the boy how to speak and it became successful, the boy learned to speak and lip read, in 1778 Samuel opened his first oral school in Germany.

I'm like you, Liebling I prefer signs and spoken speech. I opposed the use of ASL only. I don't want any deaf to go through life where it'll be hard on them.

Yes I know the oral education was first founded in Germany but I don't know the name until you mentioned Samuel here... Thank you for mention his name here.

Oral education was around in Germany for a long time until Bi-Bi education comes around 90s. Why? because the school for the deaf (oral) are less and less since we have a lot of deaf children who receive CI and went to CI school. We call it "hearing" school so they founded bi-bi program in deaf school. They feel comfortable to use sign language with speaking. We like to see them to use sign language and speaking on the same time and also learn to read anyone's lips than just oral without sign language all the time.

They learn to accept what deaf children really are instead change them what they wants.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Pls reread my post that your reply was in reference to...I was asking about hearing kids.

Excuse me, I know that you asked about hearing children. I am sorry that my answer about Bi-Bi education what and how I know about deaf and hearing children involvement is not good enough. What's an exact answer, what you expect me to ?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I never use my voice when signing in ASL. If I want to use my voice while signing, I change to SEE.

I always keep both languages separate. All of my deaf friends dont use their voices while signing.

I also keep both languages separate with my kids. I made the mistake of using both with my daughter when I first learned ASL..she is not fluent in it at all but since I stopped using my voice while signing to her 3 years ago, I notice that her receptive skills in ASL has improved tremendously.

My son is bilingual..he signs without voice and uses his voice without signing.

I am not interesting to know either you speak with or without voice when you signing but I am only interesting to know either you speak (lip movement) with sign language or not.

I use signing with or without voice sometimes to deaf people and children the same because they should know what I am. I don't switch my languages different when I meet them but I use what I am... but I only switch my languages when I met British friends and use BSL with them and speak English with my British family. I sign and speak German with my boys and hubby.

Yes I has to agree with you about ASL improvement because I noticed the same as well. My my boys & co-worker told me to not use voice when I signing with speak to them sometimes. Of course I asked them that I use just sign language without speak? They said noooooooooooooo and want to see my lip movement... I signing and speak with voice to my boys when they were babies... until they noticed that my deaf friends & we signing with speak without voice each other and feel comfortable to watch us... also my hubby & I as well... My deaf friends suggest that my boys should apply for be interpreters as their second jobs for evenings since we know that we have few interpreters around Bavaria. I admit that I hope they would but it's up to them.

It's wonderful to know that you support bi-bi for your son. Yes, it's normal for deaf children to sign without voice but without speaking?

 

[CutePommie]

No, there're difference between ASL and BSL. Don't forget that I born and raised in England. Many Europeans know American way of use sign language only without speaking.

BSL - sign language with speak (still speaking with or without voice).
ASL - sign language without speak (no even speaking).

I withnessed several Americans in real life here in Germany. They use ASL without speaking, just sign language without lip movement. It's hard for me to watch their just signing. I visited USA last July 2007 and met ADers in real life and told them that their way of sign language with speaking (I am not interesting either they use voice or not) is the same as many European countries. We understood each other prefect only when they speak on the same time as signing. ADers, I met in real life give me right that some American's way for use sign language without speaking. They do sometimes but with me, they signing with speak and also other ADers as well.

Jillio. am afraid that i does to agree with Lib. here that ASL and BSL are not same no it totally different as yes it true that BSL user does always use with lip movement like lipreads with or without voices . Interesting me that USA does speak english as like in UK and when i look at the video of ASL signer about everything whom i like to interesting to know what goes on like stories etc everythng but i cant able to understand because of no lips movement it hard for me to follow what ASL signers as it nothing just went over my head. But know it seem to be offense as am sorry for it but it is true that how we UK deaf people see it said oh god ASL signers dont have any of facial expressions or body languages.
Myself i signs with lipread as am very good at it but can not to speak use voice like hearies no .. as most of my families does to be understand when i speak to them with my voice becuase they got used do it since i was little also my kids does to used do to hear my voice when i speak to them like when they were in other room i call out to speak use my voice like * (call out my son name) want drink? then my son come out said in sign to me * yes please* or he often use lipread too. Also call out for say * hey dinner ready* they came into the dining room to sat or when the phone ring with flashing lights and i check the ID displayer and it for my son or my daughter i just call them say hey call my son or daughter's name then It phone for you* etc.
Yes it is true nothing so like same way between of ASL or BSL if ASL signers use with their mouth movement as lipread i surely will understand.

Sorry Jillio that how it is ... hope it will be clarilify to understand what am on about for you..

Have a nice day

 

[Liebling:-)))]

There is no spoken form for ASL so of course, we dont speak while using ASL. We keep both languages separate so the kids can get a correct model of both languages.

for answer my question.

Yes, Americans said the same thing what you said here. I find interesting...

I rather to watch deaf's lip movement (speaking) on the same time as they signing. I cannot follow them when they signing without speaking. DreamDeaf teased me sometimes because she know I can't understand her without speaking but just sign language... I relieved to see many ADers signed with speak to me.

We use signing with speaking on the same time (no matter either with or without voice). We did the same to deaf people and our hearing children because hearing children should know what we are. They won't bore when we visit to any deaf festivals because they know their natural languages.

Anyway, I met American solider whom he married deaf Korean lady at 80s. She sign Korean language without speaking. I asked her why she don't speak? She said that she feel comfortable to sign with her hands - why should she move her lips for? No speech therapy in Korea.



.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Jillio. am afraid that i does to agree with Lib. here that ASL and BSL are not same no it totally different as yes it true that BSL user does always use with lip movement like lipreads with or without voices . Interesting me that USA does speak english as like in UK and when i look at the video of ASL signer about everything whom i like to interesting to know what goes on like stories etc everythng but i cant able to understand because of no lips movement it hard for me to follow what ASL signers as it nothing just went over my head. But know it seem to be offense as am sorry for it but it is true that how we UK deaf people see it said oh god ASL signers dont have any of facial expressions or body languages.
Myself i signs with lipread as am very good at it but can not to speak use voice like hearies no .. as most of my families does to be understand when i speak to them with my voice becuase they got used do it since i was little also my kids does to used do to hear my voice when i speak to them like when they were in other room i call out to speak use my voice like * (call out my son name) want drink? then my son come out said in sign to me * yes please* or he often use lipread too. Also call out for say * hey dinner ready* they came into the dining room to sat or when the phone ring with flashing lights and i check the ID displayer and it for my son or my daughter i just call them say hey call my son or daughter's name then It phone for you* etc.
Yes it is true nothing so like same way between of ASL or BSL if ASL signers use with their mouth movement as lipread i surely will understand.

Sorry Jillio that how it is ... hope it will be clarilify to understand what am on about for you..

Have a nice day

I am glad that you support my post to correct Jillio. I hoping British ADers would post when they read my post here. I am glad you posted to prove that I am not alone... Your description is an exact same as me...

Very true, I can speak but not prefect voice like hearing.

At first I was nervous to think how to communicate with ADers when I planned to go USA to meet them last July 2007 because my friends teased me and wish me good luck to communicate with Americans. We know they use signing without speaking.. I met DreamDeaf & Mizzou at Airport... I was total speechless that they SPEAK on the same time they signing... I don't care about their different language but understood their lips prefect... They laughed when I told them... They insured me to not worry and will support me when some ADers signing me without speaking. I met many ADers - they sign with speaking... wow... which not same I met Americans in Germany. It's very hard to follow their just sign language development. I told them - they laughed... They asked me to correct Europeans (I mean British and German friends) that some Americans can sign with speaking like Europeans, not all Americans. I did.

I learn ASL as the same as they learn German sign language... They watch my lip movement when I signing. They said that they have no problem to understand me.

Yes, that's right - I use voice when I call my boys from upstair or other room for dinner or something...

 

[Cheri]

Anyway, I met Americans in real life and told me that they use ASL without speaking which we Europeans doesn't. We prefer to use speak (no matter either with or without voice) and sign on the same time.[/FONT][/COLOR]

When I first did some reseach on a bi bi program not only finding out that they do have speech class for the deaf children, the teachers do not use their voice while signing with the children. They use strictly ASL as their primary langauge and it is use to teach English as their second langauge as reading and writing, again that is in ASL. Shel who is a teacher in the bi bi program does not use her voice in the classroom while using ASL, because she feels that it will confused the deaf children. I don't see how it could, because it is up to them if they want to watch the teacher's lips and signs the same time or just watch the signs only.

That's why I feel that this bi bi program is based on soley ASL in the classroom if no speech is used with ASL. You see what I'm saying? I hope that you could understand me better than they could.