Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[jillio]

Nobody's insulting here; don't go away and leave things unfinished; we each need to understand one another and really, really try. Begin with ASL and English are two SEPARATE languages; therefore, one cannot use them both at the same time.

**nodding agreement**

 

[deafdyke]

Well on the other hand there's Spanglish. Why not ASLish? LOL
And yes, you can't speak English and Sign at the same time due to the two languages having completely different syntax and grammer......but you can do a pidegon (not Bert's dance LOL) of the two.

 

[Cheri]

Nobody's insulting here; don't go away and leave things unfinished; we each need to understand one another and really, really try. Begin with ASL and English are two SEPARATE languages; therefore, one cannot use them both at the same time.

You have realized no deaf is the same as another deaf.

From my experience, I uses my voice whenever I sign at all times even in SEE, and even ASL.

Example: in ASL I would sign and voice "I go store" it's up to another deaf person if she/he wishes to watch my mouth and signs the same time, even interpreters in my experience mouth the words too while they're signing.

We KNOW they are TWO different languages we are not bunch of retard deaf people, Tousi.

And Jillio, I did not say anything about BSL, I was talking about ASL. Please DO NOT twisted my words around.

Now I'm done with this thread, I do not wish to reply again.

 

[shel90]

Well on the other hand there's Spanglish. Why not ASLish? LOL
And yes, you can't speak English and Sign at the same time due to the two languages having completely different syntax and grammer......but you can do a pidegon (not Bert's dance LOL) of the two.

LOL!

People can use whatever they want in their personal lives. I dont judge anyone nor do I care. I will change my signing to fit their communication needs.


In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

 

[shel90]

Nobody's insulting here; don't go away and leave things unfinished; we each need to understand one another and really, really try. Begin with ASL and English are two SEPARATE languages; therefore, one cannot use them both at the same time.

Good advice Tousi. I didnt see anyone insulting anyone here. Also, if someone feels insulted, then explain how u felt and why and we can all go from their to reach an understanding.


Like, for example, I didnt realize Liebling meant lip movement when she used the word "speak". Now, I got what she meant. Ok, her definition of speak can be with or without voice but using mouth movement.

 

[Angel]

Nobody's insulting here; don't go away and leave things unfinished; we each need to understand one another and really, really try. Begin with ASL and English are two SEPARATE languages; therefore, one cannot use them both at the same time.

Umm where did CutePommie or I mention anything about insulting? Please don't make assumptions..You must be speaking of yourself when you say "one can not use both at the same time " well I do. so does my friends.

 

[loml]

In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

shel90- Suppose you are studying Russia, at the 9th grade level. One of the assisgnments is to read and discuss sections of the book "War of the Worlds" . You must find quotes directly from the book that reflect/imply certain Russian political statements of that era, as per written assignment.

Is English the language of instruction here? Why or why not?

 

[Kalista]

Good advice Tousi. I didnt see anyone insulting anyone here. Also, if someone feels insulted, then explain how u felt and why and we can all go from their to reach an understanding.


Like, for example, I didnt realize Liebling meant lip movement when she used the word "speak". Now, I got what she meant. Ok, her definition of speak can be with or without voice but using mouth movement.

I use my mouth movement sometime when I sign. They laughed at me because of my facial expression same time my mouth movement. *blushing*

Andrew always laughed because I can't say philiosphy and Philly, PA. pffftttt at Andrew.

 

[jillio]

LOL!

People can use whatever they want in their personal lives. I dont judge anyone nor do I care. I will change my signing to fit their communication needs.


In the educational setting where complex concepts are taught in all subjects, it is critical to keep both languages separate so the kids can focus on learning the different concepts rather than trying to make sense of two languages being mixed together.

**nodding agreement**

 

[jillio]

Good advice Tousi. I didnt see anyone insulting anyone here. Also, if someone feels insulted, then explain how u felt and why and we can all go from their to reach an understanding.


Like, for example, I didnt realize Liebling meant lip movement when she used the word "speak". Now, I got what she meant. Ok, her definition of speak can be with or without voice but using mouth movement.

Agreed. I assumed when she said speaking, she meant oral language. Yes, I use mouth movement with ASL...they are called "mouth morphemes" and the "pah" morpheme is an example. All ASL users I have ever known do that.

 

[jillio]

shel90- Suppose you are studying Russia, at the 9th grade level. One of the assisgnments is to read and discuss sections of the book "War of the Worlds" . You must find quotes directly from the book that reflect/imply certain Russian political statements of that era, as per written assignment.

Is English the language of instruction here? Why or why not?

If it was being taught in a political science class, where concept was the issue being conveyed, then it would be taught conceptually, using ASL. If it were being taught in a literature class, English would be used using ESL techniques.

 

[jillio]

I am glad that you support my post to correct Jillio. I hoping British ADers would post when they read my post here. I am glad you posted to prove that I am not alone... Your description is an exact same as me...

Very true, I can speak but not prefect voice like hearing.

At first I was nervous to think how to communicate with ADers when I planned to go USA to meet them last July 2007 because my friends teased me and wish me good luck to communicate with Americans. We know they use signing without speaking.. I met DreamDeaf & Mizzou at Airport... I was total speechless that they SPEAK on the same time they signing... I don't care about their different language but understood their lips prefect... They laughed when I told them... They insured me to not worry and will support me when some ADers signing me without speaking. I met many ADers - they sign with speaking... wow... which not same I met Americans in Germany. It's very hard to follow their just sign language development. I told them - they laughed... They asked me to correct Europeans (I mean British and German friends) that some Americans can sign with speaking like Europeans, not all Americans. I did.

I learn ASL as the same as they learn German sign language... They watch my lip movement when I signing. They said that they have no problem to understand me.

Yes, that's right - I use voice when I call my boys from upstair or other room for dinner or something...

Since I now know that you and CutePommie meant using mouth (lip) movements, I completely agree with you. I thought that you meant always using voice. That is what I thought you meant when you typed "speak". I agree, all ASL users use lip movement. But not voice. That is what I meant when I referred to speaking...using voice. That is why it is important for these discussions to continue. So that we both understand completely what the other is saying. So now that I now that you meant lip movement and not voice, then I agree. We were both actually saying the same thing. We were just using the word "speak" in two different ways.

 

[shel90]

shel90- Suppose you are studying Russia, at the 9th grade level. One of the assisgnments is to read and discuss sections of the book "War of the Worlds" . You must find quotes directly from the book that reflect/imply certain Russian political statements of that era, as per written assignment.

Is English the language of instruction here? Why or why not?

If the students here in America are expected to read and understand the quotes in Russian then they would need to be fluent in Russian as well as in English.

If that was expected in a BiBi program for Deaf/hoh children, then of course, the Deaf kids would be taught the Russian language to be able to understand the concepts of the Russian quotes and use ASL to interpret the meanings.

If that is what u meant.

If u meant Russian literature in English class and niether the deaf nor hearing kids are fluent in Russian, then it would be the teacher's responsibility to find the English version of the phrases.

In a BiBi class, the kids will read the quotes and maybe have a discussion about the meaning behind the quotes in class. They can write a certain quote on the board and then discuss about it, and so on.


I am an elementary ed teacher so my training has been with the young kids not in high school but I would assume that is how the classes would be done if discussing quotes in other languages.

The high school at my work has a Shakespeare Club in which the kids read the quotes and have discussions about the meaning and concepts behind each quote.


From preK to 3rd grade, kids learn to read

From 4th grade and on, kids read to learn information.

So, my job is to get those kids learn how to read, how to identify idioms, English phrases, different meanings of some English words, and so on.

I have never taught reading to learn since I have never taught beyond 3rd grade before.

Hope that answers your question cuz I wasnt sure if I interpreted correctly.

 

[shel90]

Since I now know that you and CutePommie meant using mouth (lip) movements, I completely agree with you. I thought that you meant always using voice. That is what I thought you meant when you typed "speak". I agree, all ASL users use lip movement. But not voice. That is what I meant when I referred to speaking...using voice. That is why it is important for these discussions to continue. So that we both understand completely what the other is saying. So now that I now that you meant lip movement and not voice, then I agree. We were both actually saying the same thing. We were just using the word "speak" in two different ways.

Same here about the confusion. Glad we all got it cleared up.


Liebling, to answer your question...yes, I always move my mouth when signing but without using my voice. Sometimes my lip movements follows the English words and other times, follows the ASL concept. I dont completely keep my mouth shut when signing. That would be too weird.

 

[jillio]

I use my mouth movement sometime when I sign. They laughed at me because of my facial expression same time my mouth movement. *blushing*

Andrew always laughed because I can't say philiosphy and Philly, PA. pffftttt at Andrew.

LOL. "Pfffttt" is another one of those mouth morphemes used in ASL. I think we all got confused, because shel, you and I were thinking that the word "speak" meant using voice. Even ASL users who never, ever use voice will still use mouth morphemes.

 

[jillio]

Same here about the confusion. Glad we all got it cleared up.


Liebling, to answer your question...yes, I always move my mouth when signing but without using my voice. Sometimes my lip movements follows the English words and other times, follows the ASL concept. I dont completely keep my mouth shut when signing. That would be too weird.

**nodding agreement** Facial expression is extremely important in ASL. It is the equivilent of vocal intonation in spoken language, and conveys things like sarcasm that hearing people convey with tone of voice. Mouth movement is a part of that facial expression.

 

[Angel]

Since I now know that you and CutePommie meant using mouth (lip) movements, I completely agree with you. I thought that you meant always using voice. That is what I thought you meant when you typed "speak". I agree, all ASL users use lip movement. But not voice. That is what I meant when I referred to speaking...using voice. That is why it is important for these discussions to continue. So that we both understand completely what the other is saying. So now that I now that you meant lip movement and not voice, then I agree. We were both actually saying the same thing. We were just using the word "speak" in two different ways.

That's the reason why CutePommie gave up, cause some of you did not understand what she is trying to say in her post. that why I said I know how she feels but then again everytime I say something someone else decide to jump in thinking we re talking about this or that when we weren't.


I move my mouth more than I use my voice while I sign, you can ask Bear, she met me more than once in person.

 

[shel90]

That's the reason why CutePommie gave up, cause some of you did not understand what she is trying to say in her post. that why I said I know how she feels but then again everytime I say something someone else decide to jump in thinking we re talking about this or that when we weren't.


I move my mouth more than I use my voice while I sign, you can ask Bear, she met me more than once in person.

Sometimes, it takes time to get things cleared up cuz we are all interacting with each other without seeing each other face to face so that's why Tousi didnt want people to give up. Sometimes, it is worth the frustration of explaining or clarifying our meanings of our POVs.

If we were all face to face, I am sure the misunderstandings would have gotten cleared up a lot quicker but this is a forum and it is bound to happen. Not a big deal.

 

[jillio]

That's the reason why CutePommie gave up, cause some of you did not understand what she is trying to say in her post. that why I said I know how she feels but then again everytime I say something someone else decide to jump in thinking we re talking about this or that when we weren't.


I move my mouth more than I use my voice while I sign, you can ask Bear, she met me more than once in person.

That is what Tousi meant when he said we all need to keep trying and discussing these things. If we hadn't kept discussing, I would never have realized that CutePommie and I were saying the same thing, but using different words, or that Leibling did not mean "voice" when she said "speak". Sometimes all we need to do is say it in another way, and the misunderstanding is cleared up.

 

[jillio]

Sometimes, it takes time to get things cleared up cuz we are all interacting with each other without seeing each other face to face so that's why Tousi didnt want people to give up. Sometimes, it is worth the frustration of explaining or clarifying our meanings of our POVs.

If we were all face to face, I am sure the misunderstandings would have gotten cleared up a lot quicker but this is a forum and it is bound to happen. Not a big deal.

Yeppers. If, for instance, we had been face to face with Leibling, we would have known that she was not using voice, and then we would not have misunderstood. But you don't know that in a foum like this, so it is neccessary to clarify.