Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[Liebling:-)))]

I understand, matter of your situation disagree w/this video. As My strongly point of view quite agree more w/this video because as my concern this future will come fade Deaf people and no longer Deaf Community because of their lost identifty true color themselves. I've learned it lot not pretty insight because future will be Deaf Community gone reason CI-young children are not allowed use Sign Langauges all over the countries and their goal teaching them (children) must learn their speak and speech not even think about read or else.. Is effective improve their speech and what about Reading and langauages ? Is Evidence anything soild case ? Show me?
I don't care about other people's pov proof their child is successes.. The parent are pressure on their child because parent's dream wanted have child is perfect speak and speech.. not even think twice about Education.. Likely eg Shel's comment previous other thread.. I cannot remmy where which one Shel's comment quite powerful concern about the Deaf School education will be no longer and getting increased Ci-children population and no longer sign languages.. I'm very surprised about my province is increased popluation school not allow children learn sign languages only SPEAK AND ORAL. My gosh.. How Children will find their own true identify?

This is a prefect description what I look at my hubby. He use oral at school.

I have little disagree w/you.. Do you allow Doctor tell everyone best implanted for children and help better speak future? Do you have anything proof as pure evidence solid.. not coming from PARENT'S POV OR COMMENT..

Unfortunlately it's sad fact that many parents listen one sided instead of both sides to Experts (doctors/professor etc) and deaf adults with their real life experiences how to develop deaf children.

Yes, That was very long time ago, Old Fashion era tend called Deaf and Dumb.. Now Future era will say.. ? (Yay, No more Deaf, CI-CHILDREN now? It will called label them? what your pov ?

Now is hearing impairment, no more deaf, HOH, oral or CI. The word of "hearing impairment" are more and more around here in Germany which mean is including deaf, CI, HOH and tinntis

Fact, Yes. I've learned it lot from VLOG issues "SIGN LANGUAGES WILL NO LONGER IN THE FUTURE AROUND THE INTERNATIONAL". Made me cry and upset.. as far My concern about the future Deaf Children will be no longer knowledge about Sign Languages and losing their self-esteem too. School want to be forcing them learn speak and speech and that what hearing parent are expecting be their child perfect!.. What they are expecting to?

Unfortunlately sad fact...

Myself, I've been there in Hearing School when I was young.. Teacher forcing me speak speech everyday and not much educational learning... I was not happy this school..
I refused go back school and complain everyday.. My parent gave it up and send me Deaf School finally I'm very happy and can communication with other Deaf Children by ASL.. Amazing learned it lot picked up Educational and ASL same time.. I felt so good.. I can recognized myself.. true identity! Never forget that long years back! I did blunt to my parent, why you're forcing me speak speech and wanted me perfect child? I'm very happy being I'm Deaf!

I personally disagree to send my deaf children to hearing school but send them to deaf school where they come from. They should know what they are not alone when they contact with deaf children. I am glad that your adoptive parents accept the fact that where you really want.

I'm not here rude 'bout this..
This is my pov feelings!

I don't see anything wrong to express your POV. It's great to know what you are and know how you feeling without judge others.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Wow it is very interesting what they had their experience during childhood. I was struggled and confused between oral and ASL during my childhood at Deaf School. I was punished when I sign. It was awful nightmare with means teachers how they treat me really bad.

Yes, it does the same to my hubby...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Oh dear, my speech therapists was awful means to me. She slapped my face because I could not pronouce f n p etc.. She pressured a wood stick on my tonuge, saying annhhhhh the drool was all over on my pretty dress. I was doing speech therapists spend 75% a day. 25% on academic and activity. That is why, I hate going to school because of bitch speech therapist.

I never want to learn to speak again. Choice ASL, it is my primary language. I am very against oralist... it is worthless in my life into real world....

Yes, true at my time... My speech therapist was impatience when I repeat speak error. I lost my moviation while I visit speech therapy. I prefer to watch my teacher sign with speak on the same time than listen speech therapist's impatience behavior. I notice many speech therapists have good patience to repeat deaf children's speech/voice at present time which different at my time.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I have never heard of any speech therapists had treated deaf people the way that your friend had experienced, All my speech therapists were all friendly and helpful. I've had years of speech therapies and it was all worth it.

It could be that you was on present time at 80s which is better than our time between 60s and 70s.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Originally Posted by Tousi
Kalista, it is alright to be against oralism because it failed you and mostly because it was/is a failure for most who experienced it BUT don't be against/hate, etc the people who went thru it successfully. See the difference? This is what Deafhood demands of us.

Maybe Kalista was saying she is against the philososphy and the people who work in the field of oral deaf education who tell lies about ASL to the public not the people who were raised in it. If Kalista was against the people who were raised in it, then that would mean she is against me but she is not.

Actually, I can see that some hearing people negative about deafness to affect deaf people's good self-estreem and make them to show everyone their positive over their deafness and prove hearing people wrong etc. I guess it would be different story if some hearing people positive them about their deafness then they would feel being equal as hearing people.


Example: at my time, 60s - the doctor positive my parents about my deafness short after they found out my deafness... told them that I lead normal life like hearing etc. Now at 80s time - the doctor positive every parents about CI children because their future would be very equal to hearing people and lead normal life like hearing... *sigh*

 

[Cheri]

I withnessed Bi-Bi children in real life and support Bi-Bi education fully over oral without sign language.

I can tell from Bi-Bi children's moviation good... They know what they really are and moviate to learn anything including speech and English. They have one hearing and one deaf teacher in class room.

I noticed that some American school for the deaf with interpreters around which we doesn't have because our teachers can sign and speak on the same time and have deaf assistance with them in class room where I grew up.

My hubby's time - no sign language in school but oral all the time... He has less moviate and busy to watch his teacher's lips to neglect his education bit. At mine - I watch what hearing teacher sign and know what she said... All hearing teachers use sign and speak on the same time that's how we learn from them. I cannot follow anyone who sign without speak. It's me. I feel comfortable when anyone use sign language with speak on the same time. At small children, hearing teacher who can sign, have deaf assistance to be with her to convince small deaf children.

I saw how Bi-Bi program is and support it fully. More and more support Bi-Bi education around Germany.

How was the children's speech skills in the bi bi program that you have witness?

What do you think of Total Communication the method is the use of sign language, speech and lip reading. The teachers and interpreters use signs and speech.

But in bi bi teachers don't use their speech only ASL but they do have a speech class in a bi bi program. That's why I'm not so sure about bi bi program.

 

[Angel]

because I am tired of seeing so many deaf children falling behind because they werent given the visual needs that they needed.

This thread was about the decision to implant children not about letting the children struggle in an educational environment where their needs are not being met. Those two issues are different. I have nothing against parents wanting to implant their children..not my business but what I am against is that putting those children in educational environment where they recieve miniminal or no support and then they fall so far behind. Then the experts blame it on the kids for not trying hard enough. If u and others dont like what I have to say, dont. I dont really care. I am just tired of deaf kids putting in programs where they struggle and end up falling so far behind.

I realized that Shel, there are hearing kids that are failing in school too for vary of reasons, not only deaf kids. there's pros and cons in every school educational. Every person has their own opinion of how to 'fix' education, All one can do is raise their children the best they can, give them the right "tools" and hope that they use them.

Do u also meet and interact with parents who have decided not to implant their children? Or those Deaf parents of deaf kids? Do u interact with them? If so, great...If not, why not?

How is this post related to "children struggle in an educational environment" ?


I'm sorry to see that my post upset you, I won't say no more.

 

[Angel]

I read alot of the CI kids blogs. I also see alot of them on deafread . They are all growing so fast. Drew's mom was picked 100 best blogs.

I agree with your comments.

Sorry to missed your post there Vallee, wow, that's great!!! I'll look into deafread, for sharing this.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

How was the children's speech skills in the bi bi program that you have witness?

What do you think of Total Communication the method is the use of sign language, speech and lip reading. The teachers and interpreters use signs and speech.

But in bi bi teachers don't use their speech only ASL but they do have a speech class in a bi bi program. That's why I'm not so sure about bi bi program.

I can see where you come from.

The deaf children, the parents send to bi-bi education, they speak with sign language on the same time. Of course I went their school at summer festival at 2 years ago. They show us what and how they did with deaf children.

We don't have interpreters in school programs but one hearing and one deaf teachers in classroom.

I asked deaf children and parents what they thought about this. I received positive from them. I has to agree with them.. They said that hearing teacher sign is okay but hearing teacher use full sentence when she sign and speak to them - they feel it's rather too long. They feel comfortable when deaf teacher use sign language with short sentence (similar to ASL) including speak. ASL helps to convince the deaf children more and also their moviation as well because they are deaf and have different moviation. Deaf teacher helps them with homework with their own language... It makes them moviation... Hearing teacher do helps but they said they are okay but they prefer deaf teacher. They accept and understand why they have to accept both hearing and deaf teachers. Deaf teacher is obligate to support hearing teacher to positive about hearing culture... why they have speech skill... and they can comfortable themselves to use ASL in deaf community... they can use both when they sign to hearing and deaf teacher... sometimes deaf teacher interpreted hearing teacher what deaf children want to say... as the same as hearing teacher positive children about deaf community as well. It's good self-esteem and moviation. That's what I like about.

I do not agree to send children to oral school or just sign language school but both sign langauge and speech/English.

 

[Angel]

Kalista, it is alright to be against oralism because it failed you and mostly because it was/is a failure for most who experienced it BUT don't be against/hate, etc the people who went thru it successfully. See the difference? This is what Deafhood demands of us.

I agreed. I just recently learned a lot of things inculde the reason why she choosed oral for her deaf child with CI, yeah I'm friends with one of the hearing parent.

 

[Kalista]

Maybe Kalista was saying she is against the philososphy and the people who work in the field of oral deaf education who tell lies about ASL to the public not the people who were raised in it. If Kalista was against the people who were raised in it, then that would mean she is against me but she is not.

You are correct, I have no against oralism people. It is so frustrated with them when they are narrowmind. I try so hard to educational them how ASL is important language for the Deaf Community. Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep.

Taught little Deaf children to learn how to speak. Where they learn in their education in ASL, their English structure will pick up really quickly by visual in hands sign language than read the lip. Read the lip tends to cause them misunderstanding.

Speak and sign language same time, it cause very confuse for the little children. I admitted that I use my voice when I sign. My son said, my voice is too loud and inappropriate words. So, I decide to turn off my voice, it makes my son feel more comfortable to visual in my ASL and facial impression.

 

[Tousi]

Kalista says: "Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep."

See? This is NOT what Deafhood is supposed to be about. No body is any better than anybody else!

 

[Kalista]

Kalista says: "Deaf people will reject oralism people because they can't understand their speak or limit sign language like straight English. It makes me fell alseep."

See? This is NOT what Deafhood is supposed to be about. No body is any better than anybody else!

I have none toleration with oralism people because they tend to misunderstand me due to my sign language is accelerated. I hate to repeat what I said. It causes our communication breakdown. It is so frustrated.

 

[jillio]

Funny how you say that since I've been a member on Ad, I encounter some deaf people like yourself who thinks that the majority generation of deaf people had failed in fact on another thread which was locked and I did not have a chance to reply to one of your post that you felt that I was offended on what Jillio stated that she had never met any deaf who had done better on communication and litacty.
And that is far from it. You don't know the majority of deaf people's experences because NO deaf is the same as another deaf their hearing loss, their residental hearing. It was so wrong to placed your judgement on them and say that children today had better or done better than the rest of the majority of the deaf in the past did. There are some deaf who had sucessful and some who did not. I applause the generation of deaf people who had went out and did their best. But you on the other hand judged those deaf poorly because of that you compared them all to the deaf children today in the bi bi program.

From what I remembered during the 1700 when ASL was taught in school they did well, but the only problem was 84 percent of those deaf had NO spoken language, all those deaf children back then were raised using ASL would enter oral education, they did not have any spoken language and oral did fail them.

Those who was never use ASL as their primary language, in most cases oral had sucess for them because they had natural spoken language at the start, than those who exposed to ASL at the begin, do you see the differences?

Bottom line is that everyone's experience is valuable as yours, not just yours alone from only from your view.

I have met a lot of deaf people who are different from each others, some of them had poorly education where a method of communication did not match them. Some of them have culture views who was raised in the Deaf Culture, on the other hand there were deaf people who had experienced with the hearing and deaf world which is an advantage that not many people have.

For instance there is no similar route that the majority of deaf people should go with.
Some deaf people have no regrets no grudge but there are some that do. We should never be ashamed of who we are and what we have become, everyone's experiences were different from each others, but no deaf is better than another deaf person.

Its time to stop comparing and judging those generation of deaf people.

Actually, Cheri, what I said was that, in my experience, I had not seen the Bi-Bi approach fail a student. That is very different from your quote bolded above. I have however, seen students that have been failed by the system of oralism and by the system of TC. I have seen students that have not been able to develop skills that are in line with their capabilities. In other words, I have seen students who were far brighter than their literacy skills demonstrated under the TC and oral systems.

As long as we continue to keep the educational system fractionalized, there will be gaps in the services that deaf children receive. Deaf children will continue to be educated at a level that is far below their intellectual capabilites. We need to find a system that provides more for these children so they have the opportunity to take what they need and use it to develop their natural intelligence. IMO, Bi-Bi is that system.

 

[jillio]

My goal is to make deaf education better for all future deaf kids so no deaf child is left behind. What's wrong with wanting that? I thought that was my job as a teacher. Isnt that what teachers are supposed to do?

I was always emphasizing in my experience. Never said that in everyone else's experiences.

I applaud the past generation of deaf people for overcoming their obstacles and I dont judge them. I am talking about the failure of the educational system not the deaf people themselves. If u dont understand the difference, then I am sorry. I dont accept less when it comes to the education for deaf children so that is why I want to give all deaf children all access to education and language.

Geez, my topic was about how some parents have stated they prefer their kids to interact with hearing children or oral deaf only not the signing deaf kids. I think that is awful cuz signing deaf children are people too. Is that a bad thing to want those parents to meet signing deaf people too?

No, I dont know the majority of deaf people's experience but I have learned a lot in the past 10 years about educational practices. Big difference.

Again, I have always stated that U and others dont have to agree with the BiBi philosophy and I wont hold it against u so I dont understand what is the problem here. I am talking about MY opinions based on what I have seen.

If it means getting those kids to achieve the highest literacy rates as possible, u bet I will do it. I am not going to hold anyone back because others didnt have the same opportunity. So what if they end up with better literacy skills than any of us? This is about the kids not about us. Any deaf adult now has the power to improve their literacy skills cuz they are responsilbe for themselves but me as a teacher, I am responsible for those kids" literacy skills so I am going to do what it takes to give them that opportunity that myself and others didnt have.

Like I told u, I am happy that the TC program worked for u.

One last thing...I NEVER EVER say that deaf people have failed...I always say that the EDUCATIONAL system failed them. BIG difference. Pls dont twist my words.

U need to stop telling me what I have or have not experience or what I know nor dont know. U can ask but dont tell me just like I never will tell u what or what u dont experience. Just like u assumed that I never been in a mainstreamed program when I explained my experiences being in a TC program at the public school. Instead of asking u said "For sure, U weren....." I really didnt appreciate that.

If I see a program that gives everything to all deaf children regardless of the degree of their hearing loss, I will believe in it more thant the other approaches. It is up to the parents but for me, it is about the kids' needs first.

U keep saying that deaf people who learn ASL first have poorer oral skills than those who learned oral. Fine, that's your experience and I will take your word for it. In my experience, I have met many ASL users who were able to develop oral language. Nope, not all but the same with those who were placed in oral only programs were unable to develop oral language.

Last of all, I have never said that any deaf is better than another. I am talking about better deaf education for the future generation of kids. If that enables them to have higher literacy skills than many of us, so what? I would be happy for them. If u dont like it, that's your opinion.

Now, I am off to go teach and I will continue to feel good about myself about my job. Nobody is gonna make me feel shitty about my job. I only care about the students when I am on the job.

Have a good day.

All either one of us is doing is advocating for a system that allows deaf children to develop their intellectual potential to the highest degree. I fail to see what is so wrong in expecting that deaf children receive the best educational services available that allows them to learn and use knowledge to the best of their abilities.

 

[loml]

originally posted by shel90

I am talking about better deaf education for the future generation of kids.

shel90- Does your vision of a better deaf education system include all tools, such as cueing English via Cued Speech for language and literacy?

 

[Angel]

I have none toleration with oralism people because they tend to misunderstand me due to my sign language is accelerated. I hate to repeat what I said. It causes our communication breakdown. It is so frustrated.

Most of the time hearing people intend to repeat what they're saying to a deaf person, and how would you feel if a hearing person says " I hate talking to deaf people cause I have to repeat what I say to them".

 

[shel90]

Nobody can predict the future, what they can really do is try out a program and see how well they will adjucted, but forcing them in a ASL only program is not the answer, they will struggle with speech, in my opinion.

Nobody is forcing them to be ASL only otherwise we wouldnt have speech nor Language Arts classes. That would be illegal to have an ASL only program. I would be against it.

However, I have never heard of an ASL only program for children unless it is used as a foreign language class.

 

[shel90]

I withnessed Bi-Bi children in real life and support Bi-Bi education fully over oral without sign language.

I can tell from Bi-Bi children's moviation good... They know what they really are and moviate to learn anything including speech and English. They have one hearing and one deaf teacher in class room.

I noticed that some American school for the deaf with interpreters around which we doesn't have because our teachers can sign and speak on the same time and have deaf assistance with them in class room where I grew up.

My hubby's time - no sign language in school but oral all the time... He has less moviate and busy to watch his teacher's lips to neglect his education bit. At mine - I watch what hearing teacher sign and know what she said... All hearing teachers use sign and speak on the same time that's how we learn from them. I cannot follow anyone who sign without speak. It's me. I feel comfortable when anyone use sign language with speak on the same time. At small children, hearing teacher who can sign, have deaf assistance to be with her to convince small deaf children.

I saw how Bi-Bi program is and support it fully. More and more support Bi-Bi education around Germany.

Also, several Eurpoean countries education for hearing kids are BiBi themselves, right? From my understanding, English is taught as a 2nd language?

 

[shel90]

How was the children's speech skills in the bi bi program that you have witness?

What do you think of Total Communication the method is the use of sign language, speech and lip reading. The teachers and interpreters use signs and speech.

But in bi bi teachers don't use their speech only ASL but they do have a speech class in a bi bi program. That's why I'm not so sure about bi bi program.

How do u expect teachers to give the children the appropriate models of language using speech and ASL in the classroom? The only time a teacher can do that is if they go from ASL to speech but not all children understand speech from the teacher and will miss out on their education.

If the teacher uses both at the same time, then it would be no longer ASL nor English..it would be Sim-Comming.