Oral school

[shel90]

Hear again, as a researcher and teacher of Deaf ed, you got it spot on about oracy, BiBi, TC, and all the other issues relating to Deaf Ed. Great postings! All those issues are why I believe the BiBi approach is the best avenue for Deaf Ed due to the children developing fluency in languages, literacy skills, and socio-emotional development.

What the research stated about TC, oralism, and SEE is what I see in real life also. Children not developing fluency in either languages.

 

[Adamsmomma]

It is very hard for many of us to really trust oral schools or believe what the oralists who work in oral-only programs say. All we see is oral-only as the banning of ASL or disregarding ASL as not needed.

I love the daycare that Adam's at b/c of the care he is receiving at this age, the small classes, they're acutely aware of his seizures etc... but they do disregard ASL as needed- and he can't use it there... (once he learns it) I even got 'the look' the other day... they were talking about new gov standards (state gov maybe?) that required bilingual books in the center- and the director said most of the kids there had trouble w/English why would they confuse them w/Spanish... when I mentioned I was teaching him some 'baby signs' at home- so technically that would make Adam Bilingual, she looked at me like I had three heads!! I tell you I felt about this __ big!! So I don't mention it anymore.

We'll most likely be moving after he's 2 so he can attend a Bi-Bi school... and in the mean time he'll get a signing teacher thru early intervention for home.

 

[Hear Again]

faire_jour,

Do you have a response to any of my posts?

 

[Hear Again]

Hear again, as a researcher and teacher of Deaf ed, you got it spot on about oracy, BiBi, TC, and all the other issues relating to Deaf Ed. Great postings! All those issues are why I believe the BiBi approach is the best avenue for Deaf Ed due to the children developing fluency in languages, literacy skills, and socio-emotional development.

What the research stated about TC, oralism, and SEE is what I see in real life also. Children not developing fluency in either languages.

shel.

I've been talkng to two people I know who are very familiar with Deaf education. I've also been doing alot of reading on the subject, so I'm also aware of the need for ASL in the classroom setting.

Even when I think back to my education in high school when I had a moderately-severe hearing loss, I can remember struggling to hear my teachers, female voices, students seated in the back of the classroom and speech in background noise. I know that probably doesn't compare to a Deaf child's lack of communication access, but it does give me some idea of what they experience since I struggled with this to some extent myself. I also couldn't lipread, so all I had to rely on was my hearing.

 

[naisho]

faire_jour,

Do you have a response to any of my posts?

faire_jour hasn't been online since she last posted yesterday at about 10:50PM EST. I don't think she has seen them yet.

 

[Hear Again]

faire_jour hasn't been online since she last posted yesterday at about 10:50PM EST. I don't think she has seen them yet.

Thanks, naisho. I didn't know if she was online or not since I was on and off AD throughout the night.

 

[shel90]

shel.

I've been talkng to two people I know who are very familiar with Deaf education. I've also been doing alot of reading on the subject, so I'm also aware of the need for ASL in the classroom setting.

Even when I think back to my education in high school when I had a moderately-severe hearing loss, I can remember struggling to hear my teachers, female voices, students seated in the back of the classroom and speech in background noise. I know that probably doesn't compare to a Deaf child's lack of communication access, but it does give me some idea of what they experience since I struggled with this to some extent myself. I also couldn't lipread, so all I had to rely on was my hearing.

About looking back, when I learned all these facts and factors of Deaf Ed, it made me look back to my educational upbringing with all the struggles and I could only wonder how much did I miss...were there information that I missed that could have helped me to perform to my maximum? I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of teaching and learning moments I missed out on but I can't dwell on the what if's and just thank my lucky stars that I loved to read. It frightens me whenever I think of that.

 

[shel90]

I love the daycare that Adam's at b/c of the care he is receiving at this age, the small classes, they're acutely aware of his seizures etc... but they do disregard ASL as needed- and he can't use it there... (once he learns it) I even got 'the look' the other day... they were talking about new gov standards (state gov maybe?) that required bilingual books in the center- and the director said most of the kids there had trouble w/English why would they confuse them w/Spanish... when I mentioned I was teaching him some 'baby signs' at home- so technically that would make Adam Bilingual, she looked at me like I had three heads!! I tell you I felt about this __ big!! So I don't mention it anymore.

We'll most likely be moving after he's 2 so he can attend a Bi-Bi school... and in the mean time he'll get a signing teacher thru early intervention for home.

Iam not surprised they have this view...it is most likely because their educational training doesn't include any BiBi methods, cultural awareness, and methods of teaching English via another language. Their view is probably limited to thinking that deaf children must develop oral skills to master English literacy so they probably will have trouble grasping the concept of ASL not interfering with English literacy or oral skills.

Most people who have never learned ASL, never got the training in bilingualism, or the importance of children needing visual access to language tend to favor oralism in Deaf Ed.

I used to be one of them.

 

[Adamsmomma]

Iam not surprised they have this view...it is most likely because their educational training doesn't include any BiBi methods, cultural awareness, and methods of teaching English via another language. Their view is probably limited to thinking that deaf children must develop oral skills to master English literacy so they probably will have trouble grasping the concept of ASL not interfering with English literacy or oral skills.

Most people who have never learned ASL, never got the training in bilingualism, or the importance of children needing visual access to language tend to favor oralism in Deaf Ed.

Yeah since they're an "ORAL educator" and their funding is based on that- it's a mortal SIN to sign at school... I guess I'm just concerned about pushing Adam to be 'oral only' when I've seen the benefit of ASL for both hearing and deaf kids. Plus I want him to make the decision when he gets older... so by offering him both options- it's not going to hurt him.

 

[deafskeptic]

Many people think my education came from being raised orally but I have to remind them that I loved to read and that was how I got my education. Also, I went to an oral program with 4 other deaf kids my age. Reconnected with them...turned out that I was the only one who got a college degree out of all of them. Reading is the key to education and if it wasnt for reading, I wouldnt be where I am now cuz I sure didnt learn as much as my hearing peers did at school. I had to compensate for it by reading everything in sight. It frightens me sometimes to think about it.

Exactly. I've had people tell me I'm smart because I can speak so well. :roll: I read tons of books but I missed out in classes when I was mainstreamed. I had to read everything in sight as well. Not everyone likes to read and I sure don't want others to have to struggle to understand what is taught in classes.

On the other hand, low expectation from some ToDs are promblematic... even allowing for language delays and other problems that many deaf children face.

 

[faire_jour]

All I have to say is that the research is comparing three groups of Deaf kids who all use various levels of visual language. They do not compare them to "typical peers", and they never mention whether the kids are age appropriate. It is not safe to assume that they are from this research and it doesn't speak to kids who use spoken language alone at all.

Oracy is defined as the ability to express oneself in and understand spoken language. It is different than literacy

 

[Buffalo]

In one post you tell us you get all these kids from oral and mainstream programs who are so far behind in thier language skills and now in this post you are telling us that all your kids are reading and writing on grade levels.

Which version is it?

Both. Shel90 had to get her kids all catch up to their level. That tells the world that Oral and Maintream programs are not that good as you would like to believe.

 

[Bottesini]

You expound all day and all night about what is like to be Deaf, and you have only experienced a sliver of the possibilites. You have never been a CI user. You have never been a successful oral deaf person. You have never been born hearing and then slowly lost it after learning spoken language. Every single deaf person is different and has a different life experience, so NO ONE can speak for all deaf people. You like to try to convince me that I'm wrong because I'm hearing, but that is just your insecurity talking. I am well informed, well read and well researched. And most important, I know my daughter and you don't. You have no idea what road she will take to be successful and what tools she will need. I see her every morning and every night. I see her interacting with others, I go to her school 2 or 3 times a week, I sit down with her every night over dinner and discuss life and then I help her with her homework. I am her mother, and I know what is best for her. Just because your ears don't work, it doesn't make you an expert on my child.

I was thinking a lot about the bolded statement. Until yesterday I had not actually thought I was not successful.

But it does occur to me how lucky to have a deaf community that does accept me, and hope for all future deaf kids to have the same luck as me if they should meet with that attitude from the hearing.

 

[Buffalo]

If that is the definition of "oralism", I have never seen it in practice. I have never see anyone punish a child for not speaking properly, or for using ASL. I have seen families and programs that choose not to use it, but they don't hurt or abuse.

My experience is wholey different than the ones so many of you speak of.

I have been punished for not be able to say "cow" in preschool (can't see the 'k' part). I was made to sit on the floor behind the teacher while she has speech therapy with other kids. Soon other kids joined me on the floor. Finally the teacher was fed up and released us back into the larger room. That was in 60's. A friend of mine had her hand whacked with a piece of wood by the fourth grade teacher for signing. Well, the coropral punishment is outlawed now but that still won't stop the oralist from punishing the kids. I suppose one can refuse to acknowledge what the kid said until the kid had said it perfectly. Or one can give a lower grade - you know, I won't be surprised that the oralist tend to equalize speech with intelligence.

Your experience is different from our experience because we lived it and you didn't. You were not there at the school everyday. They could be putting on show whenever a parent is around. I won't be surprised if they are so different when there are no parents around.

 

[Buffalo]

You expound all day and all night about what is like to be Deaf, and you have only experienced a sliver of the possibilites. You have never been a CI user. You have never been a successful oral deaf person. You have never been born hearing and then slowly lost it after learning spoken language. Every single deaf person is different and has a different life experience, so NO ONE can speak for all deaf people. You like to try to convince me that I'm wrong because I'm hearing, but that is just your insecurity talking. I am well informed, well read and well researched. And most important, I know my daughter and you don't. You have no idea what road she will take to be successful and what tools she will need. I see her every morning and every night. I see her interacting with others, I go to her school 2 or 3 times a week, I sit down with her every night over dinner and discuss life and then I help her with her homework. I am her mother, and I know what is best for her. Just because your ears don't work, it doesn't make you an expert on my child.

You are projecting your own insecurity on us. Some of us might not be a CI user. Some of us might not be a successful oral deaf person. Some of us might not have been born hearing and then slowly lost it after learning spoken language. However, we have friends that are like that. We saw how they went thru. We know them quite well, maybe even better than their parents. Yes, that does make us experts on your child. Way too many hearing people have turned deaf ears on our needs. You don't have any hearing loss and already you think you are the expert on deaf education.

I don't think you really mean it when you told us that you support BI-BI. Now you are talking about putting her in an oral school. Even your user title said "Gone For Good...celebrate" and yet you came back. If that is not insecurity, I don't know what it is.

 

[Cheri]

I don't think you really mean it when you told us that you support BI-BI. Now you are talking about putting her in an oral school. Even your user title said "Gone For Good...celebrate" and yet you came back. If that is not insecurity, I don't know what it is.

I do believe that she does supports BI BI, as far as I know the disadvantages to BI BI approach is speech, from research studies it shows that BI BI does not spend time working on either audition or speech, since Miss Kat has cochlear implant, she needs speech and audition don't you think?

 

[Hear Again]

About looking back, when I learned all these facts and factors of Deaf Ed, it made me look back to my educational upbringing with all the struggles and I could only wonder how much did I miss...were there information that I missed that could have helped me to perform to my maximum? I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of teaching and learning moments I missed out on but I can't dwell on the what if's and just thank my lucky stars that I loved to read. It frightens me whenever I think of that.

shel,

Thank goodness you loved to read because if you didn't, I'm sure things would have been far more difficult for you.

If you had been my child, you would have been given access to ASL in the classroom. There's no doubt about that.

 

[Hear Again]

All I have to say is that the research is comparing three groups of Deaf kids who all use various levels of visual language. They do not compare them to "typical peers", and they never mention whether the kids are age appropriate. It is not safe to assume that they are from this research and it doesn't speak to kids who use spoken language alone at all.

Oracy is defined as the ability to express oneself in and understand spoken language. It is different than literacy

Re-read post #255 carefully. Not only is oracy defined by the experts, the research quoted compared deaf children to hearing peers and stated that deaf students receiving a Bi-Bi education were competitive with -- and sometimes surpassed -- their hearing peers. Unless all of those hearing peers were language delayed (hardly conceivable), then the deaf students were functioning at or above age appropriate levels.

ORAL is the ability to express oneself and understand spoken language receptively. Oracy includes reading, writing and lipreading.

 

[Hear Again]

You are projecting your own insecurity on us. Some of us might not be a CI user. Some of us might not be a successful oral deaf person. Some of us might not have been born hearing and then slowly lost it after learning spoken language. However, we have friends that are like that. We saw how they went thru. We know them quite well, maybe even better than their parents. Yes, that does make us experts on your child. Way too many hearing people have turned deaf ears on our needs. You don't have any hearing loss and already you think you are the expert on deaf education.

I don't think you really mean it when you told us that you support BI-BI. Now you are talking about putting her in an oral school. Even your user title said "Gone For Good...celebrate" and yet you came back. If that is not insecurity, I don't know what it is.

 

[Hear Again]

I have been punished for not be able to say "cow" in preschool (can't see the 'k' part). I was made to sit on the floor behind the teacher while she has speech therapy with other kids. Soon other kids joined me on the floor. Finally the teacher was fed up and released us back into the larger room. That was in 60's. A friend of mine had her hand whacked with a piece of wood by the fourth grade teacher for signing. Well, the coropral punishment is outlawed now but that still won't stop the oralist from punishing the kids. I suppose one can refuse to acknowledge what the kid said until the kid had said it perfectly. Or one can give a lower grade - you know, I won't be surprised that the oralist tend to equalize speech with intelligence.

Your experience is different from our experience because we lived it and you didn't. You were not there at the school everyday. They could be putting on show whenever a parent is around. I won't be surprised if they are so different when there are no parents around.

Another

The same thing happened to a Deaf girlfriend I had in high school. She was in elementary school during the 70s, but received the same treatment as you if she could not pronounce words correctly.