Observation

[LinuxGold]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that deaf students should have to work harder. I was suggesting that there are many options to accommodate.

I agree with you there!

 

[jillio]

So the students should work harder to make sure they don't miss out on anything. Gotcha.

Much better than having interpreters or ASL in the classroom.

Can you imagine where the public school system would be if they were forced to pay for accommodations costing hundreds of thousands of dollars on one student for 12 years? When they could simply be paying tuition to a school that has a bi-bi program and no need of all these other accommodations?

Not to mention which, the more accommodations that student receives, the less they are interacting with their peers, and the more their peers will avoid them. There goes what little social involvement they have. That results in an elevation of the psycho-social issues.

 

[LinuxGold]

Can you imagine where the public school system would be if they were forced to pay for accommodations costing hundreds of thousands of dollars on one student for 12 years? When they could simply be paying tuition to a school that has a bi-bi program and no need of all these other accommodations?

Not to mention which, the more accommodations that student receives, the less they are interacting with their peers, and the more their peers will avoid them. There goes what little social involvement they have. That results in an elevation of the psycho-social issues.

Can you expound a little about bi-bi program? What resources are involved?

 

[faire_jour]

And tell me, please, who is going to pay for those thousands of dollars in accommodation. Especially those that involve structural accommodation? CART is basically ineffective for a child that is not a quick reader. FM systems do not block out background noise and have been shown to have little effect on functional performance.

Adding ASL to the mix is free.

Fm's bring the sound directly to the user, thus making the signal to noise ratio much better.

And no, ASL is not free. There is cost to each accomodation.

 

[jillio]

I agree that FM systems do not block out background noises, but so do everything in general TOWARDS hearing people. With much exposure to FM, they might try (highly doubtful) and learn to ignore the "background noise" and identify the difference between voice and the noise.

Most just stop using the FM because of the greater degree of distraction it causes. My own son used to sabotage his, and I have heard the same from many others that reported using an FM as a kid. Or as they were called: "auditory trainers".

 

[jillio]

Fm's bring the sound directly to the user, thus making the signal to noise ratio much better.

And no, ASL is not free. There is cost to each accomodation.

It is a fundamental accommodation in a bi-bi environment. Doesn't cost a thing. It is not an accommodation at a bi-bi school. Only in a mainstream environment.

I know what audtory trainers do.

What about all of these other expensive accommodations? No child is guaranteed these things by law.

 

[LinuxGold]

It is a fundamental accommodation in a bi-bi environment. Doesn't cost a thing. It is not an accommodation at a bi-bi school. Only in a mainstream environment.

I know what audtory trainers do.

What about all of these other expensive accommodations? No child is guaranteed these things by law.

In which state, which city, what atmosphere and etc do you find those trainers? "Auditory Trainers" might be trained differently based on where they are, where they learned from and so on.

I know of workers who are in Information Technology who didn't know how to format a hard drive! They had to print out a paper on how to format hard drive and follow step by step procedure...

 

[Banjo]

In which state, which city, what atmosphere and etc do you find those trainers? "Auditory Trainers" might be trained differently based on where they are, where they learned from and so on.

I know of workers who are in Information Technology who didn't know how to format a hard drive! They had to print out a paper on how to format hard drive and follow step by step procedure...

That is sad.

 

[faire_jour]

It is a fundamental accommodation in a bi-bi environment. Doesn't cost a thing. It is not an accommodation at a bi-bi school. Only in a mainstream environment.

I know what audtory trainers do.

What about all of these other expensive accommodations? No child is guaranteed these things by law.

There are costs for the school district when they send a child to a bi-bi school, just like there would be if they accommodate a deaf child in the mainstream. I am not advocating for a mainstream placement for all deaf children, or even any, I am simply saying that one size doesn't fit all.

 

[jillio]

Can you expound a little about bi-bi program? What resources are involved?

We've discussed bi-bi to death around here. Some people still don't get it, no matter how many times shel and I...and others...have explained it. Bi-bi is a bilingual bicultural environment. Language of instruction is ASL so that kids are able to get fundamental concepts that are then transferred to the English language through both written and spoken modes. Kids are able to interact one on one with both peers and instructors, as opposed to using a terp in an oral environment. When communication goes through the terp, especially in social activities like playground time, etc. using the third party interferes with the dyadic nature of language, and has negative effects on that child's understanding of language as social tool.

 

[jillio]

There are costs for the school district when they send a child to a bi-bi school, just like there would be if they accommodate a deaf child in the mainstream. I am not advocating for a mainstream placement for all deaf children, or even any, I am simply saying that one size doesn't fit all.

The cost is tuition and transportation. Much less than all of the accommodations you have listed. Additionally, accommodation as listed does not overcome many of the issues that a bi-bi environment does.

But, I return to my original question. Who is to pay for a student who requires CART, terps, acoustically altered classrooms, FM systems, and speech therapists in the school system?

 

[faire_jour]

The cost is tuition and transportation. Much less than all of the accommodations you have listed. Additionally, accommodation as listed does not overcome many of the issues that a bi-bi environment does.

So, ASL is not free. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again, I listed many different accomodaions because there are many different deaf children. Each child should be treated and educated as an individual.

 

[LinuxGold]

We've discussed bi-bi to death around here. Some people still don't get it, no matter how many times shel and I...and others...have explained it. Bi-bi is a bilingual bicultural environment. Language of instruction is ASL so that kids are able to get fundamental concepts that are then transferred to the English language through both written and spoken modes. Kids are able to interact one on one with both peers and instructors, as opposed to using a terp in an oral environment. When communication goes through the terp, especially in social activities like playground time, etc. using the third party interferes with the dyadic nature of language, and has negative effects on that child's understanding of language as social tool.

I know that bi-bi issue has been discussed to death around here. I know that it is bilingual bicultural environment. RELATED to this discussion concerning how resources are used, how money is spent, how "Standard of Procedure" (SOP) is created, how strictly is SOP enforced? is that SOP available online for us to follow? is that SOP ironed out to perfection? is there any positive testimonies coming out of that program?

 

[jillio]

In which state, which city, what atmosphere and etc do you find those trainers? "Auditory Trainers" might be trained differently based on where they are, where they learned from and so on.

I know of workers who are in Information Technology who didn't know how to format a hard drive! They had to print out a paper on how to format hard drive and follow step by step procedure...

Auditory trainer is just another term for FM system.

 

[faire_jour]

The cost is tuition and transportation. Much less than all of the accommodations you have listed. Additionally, accommodation as listed does not overcome many of the issues that a bi-bi environment does.

But, I return to my original question. Who is to pay for a student who requires CART, terps, acoustically altered classrooms, FM systems, and speech therapists in the school system?

The same people who would pay for the transportation to, and tuition for a bi bi school. They would also be paying for the audiologists and speech therapists who work at the bi-bi school.

 

[jillio]

I know that bi-bi issue has been discussed to death around here. I know that it is bilingual bicultural environment. RELATED to this discussion concerning how resources are used, how money is spent, how "Standard of Procedure" (SOP) is created, how strictly is SOP enforced? is that SOP available online for us to follow? is that SOP ironed out to perfection? is there any positive testimonies coming out of that program?

Yes, there are postive testimonies. Additionally, we have historical evidence of the effacacy of a bi-bi educational environment for the deaf. Resources are used in the same way that resources would be used in any school, public or private. The difference is, a bi-bi school is able to actually use their resources to fund more actual educational expenses because they are not having to provide thousands of dollars for terps and other accommodations. Accommodation is built into the program. It is not an added expense.

No SOP for any school is ironed out to perfection. There are always areas of need that were not included in the SOP. That is true across board.

Curriculum is based on the standardized state curriculum for the particular state. It is approved by the Board of Education for that state.

 

[jillio]

So, ASL is not free. Thanks for clearing that up.

Again, I listed many different accomodaions because there are many different deaf children. Each child should be treated and educated as an individual.

That isn't what I said at all. Don't start that again.

And again, who is to pay for all of those acccommodations? The local school system is responsible, and the taxpayers fund the local school system.

Students are not guaranteed any particular accommodation under the law. The LRE is interpreted to be the home school unless it can be shown that they cannot provide accommodation as needed. Then the child will be sent to the closest school that can provide accommodation. For deaf students, if the school is willing to provide an FM system, and the speech therapist determines that the child can function reasonably well with that accommodation, then that is all they will get. Perhaps the school system will also give preferential seating. That is the reality of school placement. Just because accommodation is available does not mean that the school system is required to fund that particular accommodation. They will use the lowest cost accommodation they can to fulfill legal mandates. Period.

 

[LinuxGold]

Yes, there are postive testimonies. Additionally, we have historical evidence of the effacacy of a bi-bi educational environment for the deaf. Resources are used in the same way that resources would be used in any school, public or private. The difference is, a bi-bi school is able to actually use their resources to fund more actual educational expenses because they are not having to provide thousands of dollars for terps and other accommodations. Accommodation is built into the program. It is not an added expense.

No SOP for any school is ironed out to perfection. There are always areas of need that were not included in the SOP. That is true across board.

Curriculum is based on the standardized state curriculum for the particular state. It is approved by the Board of Education for that state.

Is there any websites out there that I can read about concerning this program?

 

[jillio]

The same people who would pay for the transportation to, and tuition for a bi bi school. They would also be paying for the audiologists and speech therapists who work at the bi-bi school.

Nope. They do not pay for the speech therapists and audis at the school. That is paid out of the bi-bi's school budget. They are employees of that school. And they are there to serve all students at the school instead of one or two students, so it is actually more cost effective to provide those services at the bi-bi school.

Transportaion and tuition doesn't add up to even a fraction of the cost of providing the accommodations you have listed.

 

[jillio]

Is there any websites out there that I can read about concerning this program?

Not aware of any particular websites off hand, but all of the charter bi-bi schools in each state have their own websites that can be visited. Additionally, a google search will turn up thousands of websites. One just needs to search under Bi-Bi ed for the deaf.

Shel90 teaches at a bi-bi school and has for several years. I'm sure she could provide you with some contact information or give you more details on the specifics of their program.