Observation

faire joure, you don't understand that we're not being anti oral skills. At really good Deaf schools and programs they have speech therapy. Matter of fact, if you asked around you'd prolly find out that only a very small percentage of Dhh program/school kids are ASL voice off. We are NOT advocating that. And actually, I have friends who have hoh kids who have sent them to Deaf School/ Deaf program, and they've found them AMAZING!!!! Gee, I thought that Deaf Schools weren't good for hoh kids! We live in a hearing world. It's a good idea to have oral skills, just as it's a good idea for immigrants who speak a foreign language as their first to have English abilty. And you know, I really do think that in the next five or ten years, virtually ALL Deaf programs are going to become VERY hoh friendly.
But at the same time, its a good idea for kids with disabilties to have as many tools as possible. This is true for deaf and hoh kids, this is true for blind/low vision kids, this is true for CP kids, this is true for kids with ALL sorts of disabilties.
jillo, I sometimes think that if it weren't for the profit factor (ie making dhh kids dependent on HA and CI, thereby turning them into lifelong HA/CI consumers) that oral only would be as obscure as Cued Speech. Hell, a BIG part of the reason I am on disabilty, isn't b/c I'm poorly educated but b/c I need the Medicaid, which is the ONLY insurance in my state that covers hearing aids. Not to mention that the cost of health insurance is sky high even for healthy people.
 
deafdyke said:
faire joure, you don't understand that we're not being anti oral skills. At really good Deaf schools and programs they have speech therapy. Matter of fact, if you asked around you'd prolly find out that only a very small percentage of Dhh program/school kids are ASL voice off. We are NOT advocating that. And actually, I have friends who have hoh kids who have sent them to Deaf School/ Deaf program, and they've found them AMAZING!!!! Gee, I thought that Deaf Schools weren't good for hoh kids! We live in a hearing world. It's a good idea to have oral skills, just as it's a good idea for immigrants who speak a foreign language as their first to have English abilty. And you know, I really do think that in the next five or ten years, virtually ALL Deaf programs are going to become VERY hoh friendly.
But at the same time, its a good idea for kids with disabilties to have as many tools as possible. This is true for deaf and hoh kids, this is true for blind/low vision kids, this is true for CP kids, this is true for kids with ALL sorts of disabilties.
jillo, I sometimes think that if it weren't for the profit factor (ie making dhh kids dependent on HA and CI, thereby turning them into lifelong HA/CI consumers) that oral only would be as obscure as Cued Speech. Hell, a BIG part of the reason I am on disabilty, isn't b/c I'm poorly educated but b/c I need the Medicaid, which is the ONLY insurance in my state that covers hearing aids. Not to mention that the cost of health insurance is sky high even for healthy people.
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You are quite wrong. If you are advocating for a bi-bi school, you are advocating for a voice off school. ASL is voice off. If the language of instruction is ASL, it is voice off. If a school has unamplified kids, it MUST be voice off, of those children will be left out. They wouldn't have access to the communication that is happening.

Also, I understand that you are not "anti-oral skills", but many are anti- spoken language as a mode of communication. Those are two totally different things.

And again, why is it assumed that I am PRO mainstreaming? I have said over and over, that I am not. I know that deaf kids often struggle socially and with identity, if you look and actually read what I say, I say that I think that deaf kids should be given ASL, have access to the Deaf community, and be with trained Teachers of the Deaf. Why do you ignore that and instead attempt to push other beliefs on me?
 
faire_jour said:
You are quite wrong. If you are advocating for a bi-bi school, you are advocating for a voice off school. ASL is voice off. If the language of instruction is ASL, it is voice off. If a school has unamplified kids, it MUST be voice off, of those children will be left out. They wouldn't have access to the communication that is happening.

Also, I understand that you are not "anti-oral skills", but many are anti- spoken language as a mode of communication. Those are two totally different things.

And again, why is it assumed that I am PRO mainstreaming? I have said over and over, that I am not. I know that deaf kids often struggle socially and with identity, if you look and actually read what I say, I say that I think that deaf kids should be given ASL, have access to the Deaf community, and be with trained Teachers of the Deaf. Why do you ignore that and instead attempt to push other beliefs on me?
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Faire_jour,

I didn't see that deafdyke is forcibly advocating otherwise, just expressed that he is not advocating something is a mere opinion of his own. He also mentioned "good idea", not a FORCEFUL push other beliefs on anybody. He was simply expressing his opinion from what he have seen.

My advice: DO NOT ASSUME OUR INTENTION LIKE WE DID YOURS! Assumption is the mother of all foul ups and causes unnecessary debate. You have every right to express your disagreement, but again DO NOT TAKE IT TO HEART! Everyone disagree and there is nothing that we can do about it. Please agree to disagree and leave it be.
 
LinuxGold said:
Faire_jour,

I didn't see that deafdyke is forcibly advocating otherwise, just expressed that he is not advocating something is a mere opinion of his own. He also mentioned "good idea", not a FORCEFUL push other beliefs on anybody. He was simply expressing his opinion from what he have seen.

My advice: DO NOT ASSUME OUR INTENTION LIKE WE DID YOURS! Assumption is the mother of all foul ups and causes unnecessary debate. You have every right to express your disagreement, but again DO NOT TAKE IT TO HEART! Everyone disagree and there is nothing that we can do about it. Please agree to disagree and leave it be.
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You are right, DD may not be one of the people who are being so forceful. I just don't like it when people accuse me of doing things out of fear or as one poster claimed "being brainwashed". There are some who have said that spoken languages programs should be outlawed, but I'm not sure where DD stands on that.
 
faire_jour said:
You are right, DD may not be one of the people who are being so forceful. I just don't like it when people accuse me of doing things out of fear or as one poster claimed "being brainwashed". There are some who have said that spoken languages programs should be outlawed, but I'm not sure where DD stands on that.
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Don't worry about where people stand. I've been accused of a lot of things in various point of views, who cares? I just explain my view and explain why they work and that is the end of it. Just let DD be, it might work for him and not for the rest of us, things might work for us and not them.

Keep in mind that there ARE a lot of variables -- techniques might be taught wrong by people who didn't grasp the right concept on EITHER side or vice versa.

It is like "The weather is calm here in Nebraska, it should work in Hawaii!! THAT IS WHY I DISAGREE!!! blah blah...". Just leave them be and express your opinion based on what you saw and just let them scream their heads off. Protect your family, do what you think WORKS, if it is not broken, then don't fix simply because someone else tells you to.
 
faire_jour said:
You are quite wrong. If you are advocating for a bi-bi school, you are advocating for a voice off school. ASL is voice off. If the language of instruction is ASL, it is voice off. If a school has unamplified kids, it MUST be voice off, of those children will be left out. They wouldn't have access to the communication that is happening.

Also, I understand that you are not "anti-oral skills", but many are anti- spoken language as a mode of communication. Those are two totally different things.

And again, why is it assumed that I am PRO mainstreaming? I have said over and over, that I am not. I know that deaf kids often struggle socially and with identity, if you look and actually read what I say, I say that I think that deaf kids should be given ASL, have access to the Deaf community, and be with trained Teachers of the Deaf. Why do you ignore that and instead attempt to push other beliefs on me?
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Let me ask you this: Why would you advocate for a child that functions any degree less than that of a fully hearing child to be in an educational environment that used a mode of communication for instruction that insures they will miss even 1% of what is going on in the classroom? It is a learning environment. They are there to learn. A child cannot learn efficiently nor adequately when they are not able to get 100% of the instruction being presented, and miss out on many opportunities for incidental learning. In the educational environment access is the issue.

You say that you are using sign at home, and an oral environment for school. Why not a bi-bi environment for school and an oral environment for home? That would make sooo much more sense.
 
jillio said:
Let me ask you this: Why would you advocate for a child that functions any degree less than that of a fully hearing child to be in an educational environment that used a mode of communication for instruction that insures they will miss even 1% of what is going on in the classroom? It is a learning environment. They are there to learn. A child cannot learn efficiently nor adequately when they are not able to get 100% of the instruction being presented, and miss out on many opportunities for incidental learning. In the educational environment access is the issue.

You say that you are using sign at home, and an oral environment for school. Why not a bi-bi environment for school and an oral environment for home? That would make sooo much more sense.
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My child is in a classroom with 3 other students. She is with a teacher of the Deaf who specializes in making sure that the students don't miss out. She has access.

Perhaps having your child in a bi-bi school made sense for your child, it doesn't for everyone. It was no longer an appropriate setting for my child. They were not able to provide services or a setting that would allow my child to become bilingual with ASL and both written and spoken English. All the research shows that children learn a language best, most easily and naturally through immersion, so we needed to immerse her in the language she was learning.
 
faire_jour said:
My child is in a classroom with 3 other students. She is with a teacher of the Deaf who specializes in making sure that the students don't miss out. She has access.

Perhaps having your child in a bi-bi school made sense for your child, it doesn't for everyone. It was no longer an appropriate setting for my child. They were not able to provide services or a setting that would allow my child to become bilingual with ASL and both written and spoken English. All the research shows that children learn a language best, most easily and naturally through immersion, so we needed to immerse her in the language she was learning.
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That doesn't really answer my question. Immersion doesn't require specialized services. And the educational environment is much more than learning spoken language. An HOH person will never have 100% access to spoken language in more than a 1 on 1 situation. A deaf child with a CI functions as an HOH child would because they have not received 100% recovery of the hearing they had as a hearing child. Why not immerse the child in spoken language at home, and add the assistance of visual language to schooling. A child's future is more dependent upon a good education and developing the proper skills than it is on language mode. If you want oral language, why not use the home environment to foster it while you give the added advantage of the visual in the classroom. That way you insure complete access to education, and still have her immersed in oral language at home and social situations.
 
jillio said:
That doesn't really answer my question. Immersion doesn't require specialized services. And the educational environment is much more than learning spoken language. An HOH person will never have 100% access to spoken language in more than a 1 on 1 situation. A deaf child with a CI functions as an HOH child would because they have not received 100% recovery of the hearing they had as a hearing child. Why not immerse the child in spoken language at home, and add the assistance of visual language to schooling. A child's future is more dependent upon a good education and developing the proper skills than it is on language mode. If you want oral language, why not use the home environment to foster it while you give the added advantage of the visual in the classroom. That way you insure complete access to education, and still have her immersed in oral language at home and social situations.
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I couldn't agree more!
 
jillio said:
That doesn't really answer my question. Immersion doesn't require specialized services. And the educational environment is much more than learning spoken language. An HOH person will never have 100% access to spoken language in more than a 1 on 1 situation. A deaf child with a CI functions as an HOH child would because they have not received 100% recovery of the hearing they had as a hearing child. Why not immerse the child in spoken language at home, and add the assistance of visual language to schooling. A child's future is more dependent upon a good education and developing the proper skills than it is on language mode. If you want oral language, why not use the home environment to foster it while you give the added advantage of the visual in the classroom. That way you insure complete access to education, and still have her immersed in oral language at home and social situations.
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If that worked for you, great. We have chosen something else for our child. Thanks for your concern.
 
faire_jour said:
If that worked for you, great. We have chosen something different for my child. Thanks for your concern.
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So I am to take it that you are leaving this board? What is the point of staying here now?
 
Beowulf said:
It is just about making choices. You made one for your child. Now make one for yourself. Or was it about you all along?
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Beowulf, what are you trying to do? She made her mind and contributed her ideas to this thread.
 
faire_jour said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Make a decision for myself about what?
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Oh, never mind. I just read the last few posts and was struck by the impression that you made a life choice for your daughter. I am not making judgments, honestly. I was just wondering if your continued posting in here will be construed as boasting about your choice, even though the jury is still out. Just forget anything I said. That is cool. :wave:
 
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