Not Deaf enough??

[hoichi]

[

Hoichi, what you or any other Deaf person have gone through or what you were forced to do in the past has nothing to do with me. I've been hoh my whole life and have never felt sorry for myself for it, but I also don't apologize for still being able to hear. Just because I use my voice and ears to communicate rather than using ASL doesn't mean I think I'm better than Deaf people. It doesn't make me audist.

It doesnt make you better or an audist. It just means your not culturally Deaf. Thats all. We define ourselves viw our language. If you dont sign. Your not Deaf. Your deaf.

Ho I've never forced a Deaf person to talk or made fun of them for not being able to hear, and I never would. Since I began wearing hearing aids (meaning my being hoh was more "visible" to others), I've educated many curious people about hearing loss and hearing aids, and I am always willing to answer questions and let people know that being hoh is not always wonderful (from my perspective), but it's not the end of the world, either. It's just something I have to deal with, like other people have to deal with other things in their lives. It's just part of who I am.

This is just about hearing or the lack of it. You need to understand.our world and our lives as Deaf are much more and really we dont hold the medical discourse as deafness as an afliction or an illness in need of cure. Our culture is not dependent on hearing. We are the people of the eye.

HoiIf I was ever to attempt sign language with Deaf people, I would simply expect them to treat me with respect and patience, as I would them. But if I'm told I should expect that I'll be looked down on or thought of as being "rude" if I should speak (which has been my primary form of communication for 50 years) while in the process of trying to use sign language, then I'm not interested in spending time with people (hearing or Deaf) who treat others in such a way. I'm not saying I think all Deaf people would treat people like that, but if that's the general attitude in Deaf culture, then it's definitely not something I am going to seek out.

Again. As ive written in my other posts. We wont look down on you or think your rude if your using sign with us. Even if your learning. we will help you. What we find rude is the idea to be accepted as one of us you can just babble lip speak english and not sign and expect us not to sign.. Deaf sign. If you dont your not one of us. Period. your deaf.

HoiI've never personally met a Deaf person, but I've met several hoh people (some with hearing aids, some with cochlear implants, and some who've never used either), and despite our different ways of dealing with being hoh, we all accepted our differences and managed to be very supportive and not judge each other for how we handled being hoh. As I've continued to lose more hearing over the last couple of years and have begun learning about Deaf culture, it's been very eye-opening to read about the concept of "not Deaf enough." Who knew it wouldn't be enough to become deaf to be accepted fully by other deaf people who happen to use a different language?

Because your still trapped and chained in the medical discourse as deafness bieng a lack of hearing. your still not getting it. We dont use that measure. We define ourselves via our language not decible loss.

Hoi We're all texting now on this message board, after all - none of us is using either ASL or speech to communicate, and that seems to be working ok. Why should deaf people let speech vs sign language divide and weaken them as a group? Do Deaf people who use ASL look down on other Deaf people who use a different sign language? They're still different languages, just as ASL and English are. Wouldn't we all be stronger as deaf/hoh people (as a group) if we just supported each other and didn't judge each other, no matter which language we use?

We are not the same group. and one day i hope soon we will have si5s availible to via net to.use as forum. until then we are stuck communicating in enllish even when thinking in asl for net. Its not that good actually..so much is lost in this way, via transliteration.allot of Deaf are left out. but we will have our own asl way via txt. Only a matter of time.
Sign has only made us stronger
Sign
Has
Set
Us
Free.
Cmon crickets..take my hand...sign will set you free too..
Ill help you.

 

[flameburns623]

Alright man im not seeing what all your point is here....anyway indeed Deaf are everywhere, we dont hwve a state, but at one time in american history a state for us Deaf was explored as an idea.
anyway for us its not about race Its about language.
Its via our language that we define ourselvs. Its via our sign
So
When someone refuses to sign with us, or demands we stop signing, or insisists we babbledable english..
We wont accept them. Because they by default by refusing to accept and use our language do not accept us,

Not happn'n that way. It'll take years for me to become passable in ASL, but I am seeking to achieve at least a workable competency.

I don't aim to reach Interpreter fluency. Acquiring that skill set would take too long to be worthwhile at my age.

But good enough to form friendships and swap dirty jokes at the nursing home? That might be do-able. (LoL--Just Joking!)

 

[deafdyke]

"monoglot"???

Best term I can come up with.... monoglot is a speaker of one exclusive language.

 

[deafdyke]

[



It doesnt make you better or an audist. It just means your not culturally Deaf. Thats all. We define ourselves viw our language. If you dont sign. Your not Deaf. Your deaf.

But people who learned ASL as a secondary language, use Sign!
You know I wonder if it's a matter of misunderstanding terminology.
I'm using secondary to mean a second language that you actually actively USE, not just one that you learn academicly (like the way French and Latin are with me)

 

[Bebonang]

But people who learned ASL as a secondary language, use Sign!
You know I wonder if it's a matter of misunderstanding terminology.
I'm using secondary to mean a second language that you actually actively USE, not just one that you learn academicly (like the way French and Latin are with me)

I hate that word by using the second language, especially sign language as foreign language for people who has never used ASL or any other sign language from different countries. We have always thought our ASL is our primary (always first language for the Deaf) ASL language because this is what we need to use our visual sign language much better than lipreading and not be able to listen through hearing aids or CI.

All through my years of mainstreaming elementary and high school, I was forced to use oral methods and I had begged my principals to allow us to use ASL so that we can understand what is going on in the classrooms and be able to communicate with each other instead of orally. I had a hard time understanding my classmates who are either hard of hearing or deaf and we were kind of frustrating, even with hearing students and hearing teachers.

We suffered that. That is why after I graduated from mainstream high school, I went to the ASL class at a Deaf church and the Deaf pastor taught me and other people who are hearing, I think. I learned how to signed correctly. I was very happy to be involved with the Deaf community and we loved to sign. I had never ask the Deafies to help me to sign. I just watched them to understand the right way to sign. No problem. They will help just a little bit. We can not teach them to sign if you only have partial signs if you are just learning how to sign ASL. That is why it is important that they go to the ASL class first so that you can learn how to sign properly before going to the Deaf community or Deaf events.

If you want to be accepted into the Deaf Community or Deaf events, then you need to sign in the Deaf Community or Deaf events.

Beside, if you are taking the ASL class, the Deaf teacher will teach about the Deaf Culture. This is very important to our Deaf Community. So learn that. :P

 

[LoveBlue]

I hate that word by using the second language, especially sign language as foreign language for people who has never used ASL or any other sign language from different countries. We have always thought our ASL is our primary (always first language for the Deaf) ASL language because this is what we need to use our visual sign language much better than lipreading and not be able to listen through hearing aids or CI.

Using second or foreign is for people who have another first language. My first language is English. If I ever become fluent enough with ASL, then that would be my second language. ASL is foreign to those who do not know it, just like English is foreign to the French who have not learned it.


for·eign
1.
of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own.
"a foreign language"
synonyms: overseas, exotic, distant, external, alien, nonnative
antonyms: domestic, native

2.
strange and unfamiliar.
synonyms: unfamiliar, unknown, unheard of, strange, alien

 

[AlleyCat]

Using second or foreign is for people who have another first language. My first language is English. If I ever become fluent enough with ASL, then that would be my second language. ASL is foreign to those who do not know it, just like English is foreign to the French who have not learned it.


for·eign
1.
of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own.
"a foreign language"
synonyms: overseas, exotic, distant, external, alien, nonnative
antonyms: domestic, native

2.
strange and unfamiliar.
synonyms: unfamiliar, unknown, unheard of, strange, alien

I agree. For me, I have said both English and ASL are my first languages (because I learned both simultaneously and am fluent in both, I don't know how I would pick one over the other,) but I am also learning Swedish and I definitely consider that a secondary (or third) language.

 

[Crickets]

[
This is just about hearing or the lack of it. You need to understand.our world and our lives as Deaf are much more and really we dont hold the medical discourse as deafness as an afliction or an illness in need of cure. Our culture is not dependent on hearing. We are the people of the eye.

And that's great for Deaf people who feel that way about themselves and are completely happy with being Deaf. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, if someone has a medical condition like otosclerosis or excess fluid or an injury that is causing certain types of deafness and CAN be helped or cured medically, then I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. People should have the choice to be Deaf if they want, and they should have the choice to be hearing if they want, even if that hearing isn't fully "normal."

People who are Deaf communicate with their hands, so if you as a Deaf person begin losing the ability to use your hands (due to arthritis or carpal tunnel or an injury), would you not have surgery to try to have better use of your hands again, so that you could more easily communicate? After all, there's nothing wrong with people who can't use their hands - they're just differently abled. If you could no longer use your hands for sign language, you'd find a different way to communicate eventually, so why not just accept it? People who are born without hands don't see themselves as broken. The difference is that Deaf people use their hands to communicate. Hearing people (and many hoh people) use their ears to communicate. For people who don't use their ears to communicate, it's completely understandable to not feel like they need to be "fixed" if their ears don't hear. For hearing/hoh people, it's often a different story.

It's all a matter of perspective, relative to what we're used to and most comfortable with and how we want to live our lives. If I would rather be hearing than Deaf, that doesn't mean I think YOU should be hearing rather than Deaf.

 

[DeafDucky]

I call English and ASL dual languages for me. Even though I didn't learn ASL until I was 18 I consider it equal to the language I grew up with- English.

 

[Tousi]

I agree. For me, I have said both English and ASL are my first languages (because I learned both simultaneously and am fluent in both, I don't know how I would pick one over the other,) but I am also learning Swedish and I definitely consider that a secondary (or third) language.

That's where I'm at, too, AC....

 

[hoichi]

But people who learned ASL as a secondary language, use Sign!
You know I wonder if it's a matter of misunderstanding terminology.
I'm using secondary to mean a second language that you actually actively USE, not just one that you learn academicly (like the way French and Latin are with me)

alright. I see your point snd iAgree To a point.what mwtters here to us, is as as long as you use sign as a language with us, primarily. thats what my point is. Thats how we see it. Period.
If you with us uses a little sign and the rest of the time txt, english, or babble hearie speak that wont cut it. We understnd it takes time, but were not dumb. Ive peesonally known s few who sfter lesnrinf the abc, and a few signs settles in with thAt...cool...but. we wont accept you ws culturally Deaf if thats as fsr as ones willing to go. Its like any minoeity cullture and their language.

 

[hoichi]

[

And that's great for Deaf people who feel that way about themselves and are completely happy with being Deaf. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, if someone has a medical condition like otosclerosis or excess fluid or an injury that is causing certain types of deafness and CAN be helped or cured medically, then I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. People should have the choice to be Deaf if they want, and they should have the choice to be hearing if they want, even if that hearing isn't fully "normal." eaf.eaf.

Indeed people have the choice to be what they want, wnd we hwve the choixe to.choose.who we wwnt wnd who we consider pwrt o.culture or not.choice is great.

People who are Deaf communicate with their hands, so if you as a Deaf person begin losing the ability to use your hands (due to arthritis or carpal tunnel or an injury), would you not have surgery to try to have better use of your hands again, so that you could more easily communicate? After all, there's nothing wrong with people who can't use their hands - they're just differently abled. If you could no longer use your hands for sign language, you'd find a different way to communicate eventually, so why not just accept it? People who are born without hands don't see themselves as broken. The difference is that Deaf people use their hands to communicate. Hearing people (and many hoh people) use their ears to communicate. For people who don't use their ears to communicate, it's completely understandable to not feel like they need to be "fixed" if their ears don't hear. For hearing/hoh people, it's often a different story.eaf.

This misses the point entirely, adults can do what they want, if you want to.be "fixed", then be fixed,. The line for us we drew in the sand re forfing inplsnts on.kids, drilking holes into our babies head, under false promises, for profit. With little csre od the side effects, life time migrains, snd a sucxess rste thsts fsr from steller. Yet the drill truns wnd thiussnds wre drilled into w year.kkds snd babies dont hwve s fhoixe.and thats where we.tske a stand. again wdukts csn do what they want. And we can choose who.we accapt as one of us or not. Its that simple.

It's all a matter of perspective, relative to what we're used to and most comfortable with and how we want to live our lives. If I would rather be hearing than Deaf, that doesn't mean I think YOU should be hearing rather than Deaf.

You can be what ever you want.
If you want to.be Deaf, you must SiGN.
If you wont, or refuse, Cool.
But you will never be one of us. and thats ok.

 

[VacationGuy234]

You know, what's funny to me, I never thought the language part of Deaf Culture was a big impediment. After all, you need to have some binding commonality to be a culture and language is that commonality for that culture.

After reading the last few pages of this this thread(very interesting), I've come to understand that it's probably not the sign or the philosophy, so much as the meeting rules, which cause friction between deaf and Deaf. You get two people together; one wants to talk while the other wants to sign. And, amazingly, given all that each has been through, the issue can't be overcome.

But, I do think it's getting better.

 

[deafdyke]

alright. I see your point snd iAgree To a point.what mwtters here to us, is as as long as you use sign as a language with us, primarily. thats what my point is. Thats how we see it. Period.
If you with us uses a little sign and the rest of the time txt, english, or babble hearie speak that wont cut it. We understnd it takes time, but were not dumb. Ive peesonally known s few who sfter lesnrinf the abc, and a few signs settles in with thAt...cool...but. we wont accept you ws culturally Deaf if thats as fsr as ones willing to go. Its like any minoeity cullture and their language.

Exactly. I like Deaf Duckie's wording of dual languages.

 

[hoichi]

You know, what's funny to me, I never thought the language part of Deaf Culture was a big impediment. After all, you need to have some binding commonality to be a culture and language is that commonality for that culture.

After reading the last few pages of this this thread(very interesting), I've come to understand that it's probably not the sign or the philosophy, so much as the meeting rules, which cause friction between deaf and Deaf. You get two people together; one wants to talk while the other wants to sign. And, amazingly, given all that each has been through, the issue can't be overcome.

But, I do think it's getting better.

Overcome what exactly?
Whats so hard to fathom, about amongst russians speak russian, amongst japanse speak japanese, amongst Deaf SIGN That each culture has its rules as to who they accept and who they dont, and one must have some criteria as to how they measure belonging, and not Belonging. dont go to russia and demand them use only english ect ect. Or japan, or to is Deaf and when they dont pout and wag a finger of disdain at how they are non accepting to your forign language. Its so simple
We use sign.
It is our culture, our language. we decide who is accepted to our culture and who is not..like any culture really.
We dont make the issue. Its non signers. who have it. Really,
Getting better now? how so? that more.deaf babies are bieng drilled into, that more Deaf kids are being drilled into against their will, against our Deaf desires, our opposition. and with that their is the ideology that to only use hearie speak less the deaf kid revert to being Deaf? Its getting better how? That as the drill turns our culture is being strangled, our future poets, storytellers, leaders are being silenced by design, as promised, by those who seek to rid the world of people like us. Deaf. Is it getting better that more of us have been bullied.and berrated into just using english and less asl?
True
But given the non signers posting in this thread about a culture they arennt even a part of, its just cultural imperialism, its cultural colonilism And we are used to it
frankly
If one doesnt want to sign, or refuses to sign, pls leave us the hell alone..get lost!!!
stop comming into our house, our culture and bitching that we sign and you dont, and that poor me, we need to use more english, or we dont accept you...take your adiogram and shove it Where our signs dont shine!! That doesnt make you one us. We are Deaf, to be Deaf is A gift, not a curse,
Enough!
Were sick of it.
We are the people of the eye. We SiGN. And sign will set you free!!
If you wont sign with us if you refuse to sign with us, you will NEVER be one of us.
for all non signers, oral deaf. Stoo trying to.change us, stop crying we sign and you dont. If you want to move your beaks as hearie parots flap your lips away from us.
If you want to sign and be Deaf, wicked, we welcome you.

 

[Bottesini]

Overcome what exactly?
Whats so hard to fathom, about amongst russians speak russian, amongst japanse speak japanese, amongst Deaf SIGN That each culture has its rules as to who they accept and who they dont, and one.must hsve some criteria as to how they measure belonging, wnd not. dont go to russia and demand them use only english ect ect. Or japqn, wnd when they dont pout and wag a finger of disdain at how they sre non.wccepting to your forign language. Its so simple
We use sign.
It is our culture, our language. we decide who is accepted to our culture and who is not..like any culture really.
We dont make the issue. Its non signers. who have it. Really,
Getting better now? how so? that more.deaf babies are bieng drilled into, that more Deaf kids are being drilled into against their will, against pir Deaf desires, our opposition. and w l.

Blahh, blah, blah. Your'e too young to remember about Laro Club and others like.

As for Japanese, what about the Ainu???

It's not all so black and white anywhere.

 

[hoichi]

Blahh, blah, blah. Your'e too young to remember about Laro Club and others like.

As for Japanese, what about the Ainu???

It's not all so black and white anywhere.

Im doing non signers a favoir bots. Hopefullly they take s friendly hint.
I was using japanse and russian as mere.examples, but its any language.
its so rude, to show Up in anothers home and culture and demand they use your language rather then their own, wnd when they sont bitch.
Thats my point.
We get it all the time.
Yes to young. Indeed...but im no spring chicken ewithrr...hah

 

[Bottesini]

Im doing non signers a favoir bots. Hopefullly they take s friendly hint.
I was using japanse and russian as mere.examples, but its any language.
its so rude, to show Up in anothers home and culture and demand they use your language rather then their own, wnd when they sont bitch.
Thats my point.
We get it all the time.
Yes to young. Indeed...but im no spring chicken ewithrr...hah

Yeah, but the ones who are arguing with you are unlikely to try to join in in real life, or if they do, it will be about one or two times.

It's just wasted argument.

I think I am saying here is just the internet, and they can think what they like. It would be more fruitful to make them try to put it into practice in the physical world.

 

[hoichi]

Yeah, but the ones who are arguing with you are unlikely to try to join in in real life, or if they do, it will be about one or two times.

It's just wasted argument.

I think I am saying here is just the internet, and they can think what they like. It would be more fruitful to make them try to put it into practice in the physical world.

How true. How true..

 

[BecLak]

One thing that I think everyone should be aware of is, for people like myself, who were born deaf in a hearing family, were raised oral because it is fitting and 'normal' for the hearing world. For your hearing parents and siblings not knowing or understanding any other way, did what they thought was best for you and your environment. Then, at a later age,such as myself, coming to the realisation that you were just fooling yourself and those around to come across as hearing. Not only are you worn out and fed up with the sheer effort everyday of trying to 'fit in' to the hearing world. You search for answers and stumble across the Deaf Community, often that door being opened, as it was for me, but joining AllDeaf. You enter a whole 'new' world of interacting and meeting with people just like you. You come to the realisation, that had you been given the choice knowing what you know now, you will have most definitely chosen to sign and be identified as Deaf. However, what can you do? You had created a world for yourself from your previous experience. Not only your parents, but also a hearing husband and hearing children whom you love dearly. You start learning Auslan, you try to make gradual changes to meet your innermost yearning for your right to a mode of communication easiest for you, yet it requires that everyone you have ever known to change their language for you too. It's a challenge to say the least. I have had to fall on the common ground of compromise, for the sake of my loved ones. By saying that, I had the priviledge of attend the WFD Conference in Sydney not so long ago. For a whole week, I was my happiest, because I did not need to use my voice and although my Auslan was limited, I was still able to get my point across. It was exhilirating when in public, to see hearies immediately recognise that I was deaf because I was voice-off and used sign, and pen and paper. I realised more than ever, being Deaf, thats who I am, where I truly fit. I am not late-deafened. I was born deaf. It would be ideal if I could find support to be who I really am, instead of being caught in the middle of both worlds. I've been told I have no choice but to be 'oral' from one side and the other being called a 'Deaf wannabe'. I choose to be Deaf in a hearing world.