Not Deaf enough??

[hoichi]

Deaf should lead Deaf, its simple
How Deaf is measured is a claptrap, really. But it comes down to sgn and culture.
If you sign as a primary langage and am part of our culture then Deaf culfure will accept you, as one of us.
Its also changed due to being bullied and berreted into silence and acceptence.re ci in deaf kids against their will.
Its accepted defeat in that , and thus thousands a year are drilled into.
When i first went to Deafie school, i was given a choice by Deafie who became close.life long.friends with me. take the aids off your Deaf or hearie cant be both...reflecting on it now, there was 5 of them and one of me i made the smart choice, and trashed the useless aids anyway....it made sense. As this was a reaction against hearie domination, the Deafie who tuaght me the lesson here were those who still remembered having their hands tied behind their back and forced to speak a damn language they couldnt hear, and were forbidden to use their natural language sign so....yeah it was a gut emotional reactionary strategy , kids arent the cleverest of lesders, our leaders were few, our culture was and is very much compramised. anyway, given the array of forces and deep pockets whos goal was and is the ridding of the world of people like us. Its no wonder we didnt stand a chance, and still dont stand a chance the writing is on the wall for my culture as the damn drill turns.....
Nutshell.
You sign and are amongst our culture we accept you as Deaf, its not jist sign once in a while the rest move lips, you really need to sign.
Your Deaf.
its not an audiological medical approach, coda are accepted in or culture too. If they sign.

 

[deafdyke]

Deaf should lead Deaf, its simple
How Deaf is measured is a claptrap, really. But it comes down to sgn and culture.
If you sign as a primary langage and am part of our culture then Deaf culfure will accept you, as one of us.
Its also changed due to being bullied and berreted into silence and acceptence.re ci in deaf kids against their will.
Its accepted defeat in that , and thus thousands a year are drilled into.
When i first went to Deafie school, i was given a choice by Deafie who became close.life long.friends with me. take the aids off your Deaf or hearie cant be both...reflecting on it now, there was 5 of them and one of me i made the smart choice, and trashed the useless aids anyway....it made sense. As this was a reaction against hearie domination, the Deafie who tuaght me the lesson here were those who still remembered having their hands tied behind their back and forced to speak a damn language they couldnt hear, and were forbidden to use their natural language sign so....yeah it was a gut emotional reactionary strategy , kids arent the cleverest of lesders, our leaders were few, our culture was and is very much compramised. anyway, given the array of forces and deep pockets whos goal was and is the ridding of the world of people like us. Its no wonder we didnt stand a chance, and still dont stand a chance the writing is on the wall for my culture as the damn drill turns.....
Nutshell.
You sign and are amongst our culture we accept you as Deaf, its not jist sign once in a while the rest move lips, you really need to sign.
Your Deaf.
its not an audiological medical approach, coda are accepted in or culture too. If they sign.

Correction, even if you sign as a SECONDARY language, the Deaf will still accept you!

 

[hoichi]

Correction, even if you sign as a SECONDARY language, the Deaf will still accept you!

I was writing of MY experience, im Deaf, i went to.i went to a Deaf.res school, i went gally, ive been in Deaf culture for decades.
Its My experience.
Yours obviously differs.
In my experience. If you want us to.accept you, really accept you then you need to sign, not as an aid to english, or an aid to catch what was missed via hearing loss, or sign as a.sometimes second fun language.
The above will only get you so far.
If you want to be accepted in Deaf culture then one should be Deaf.
Its that simple

 

[Crickets]

I was writing of MY experience, im Deaf, i went to.i went to a Deaf.res school, i went gally, ive been in Deaf culture for decades.
Its My experience.
Yours obviously differs.
In my experience. If you want us to.accept you, really accept you then you need to sign, not as an aid to english, or an aid to catch what was missed via hearing loss, or sign as a.sometimes second fun language.
The above will only get you eo far.
If you want to be accepted in Deaf culture then one should be Deaf.
Its that simple

So, you were bullied/pressured by a particular group of Deaf people into throwing away your hearing aids because they didn't think you were "Deaf enough" and that was Ok with you, and now you think it's OK to do to other deaf people? That attitude (you have to behave THIS ONE way, or we won't accept you) seems just as negative to me as hearing people telling deaf people that they must only be verbal and not use sign language. If you're trying to get more people to learn sign language and trying to save Deaf culture, then trying to maintain it as some sort of "exclusive" club where it's only acceptable if you use sign language all or most of the time instead of using hearing aids or other means of communication is not the way to do it, and frankly it doesn't portray Deaf culture in a very attractive or inclusive way. If that's the only way to be accepted into Deaf culture, then you can keep it, is my personal feeling.

Most deaf people don't use sign language as their primary means of communicating with other people (whether those other people are hearing or also deaf), because most deaf people don't use sign language at all. Most deaf people don't live and work in circumstances where it would be practical to primarily switch to sign language to communicate in their day-to-day lives, and most are only going to be part-time sign language users, if that, because they're growing up in a mainly hearing world, so that's the world most are going to adapt their communication and lifestyle to.

If you as a deaf person decided to throw away your hearing aids, that was your decision, but that doesn't make it the only acceptable decision for other deaf people. Personally, I think deaf and hoh people have enough difficulties in their lives without worrying about whether Deaf or hearing people are going to accept or judge the way they choose to live. I think each person should use whatever means of communication is best for them, whether it's talking, sign language, lipreading, texting, writing, reading, using hearing aids, cochlear implants - or not - or any combination of these things, on any given day. What is right for you or me may not be right for others.

 

[hoichi]

So, you were bullied/pressured by a particular group of Deaf people into throwing away your hearing aids because they didn't think you were "Deaf enough" and that was Ok with you, and now you think it's OK to do to other deaf people? That attitude (you have to behave THIS ONE way, or we won't accept you) seems just as negative to me as hearing people telling deaf people that they must only be verbal and not use sign language. If you're trying to get more people to learn sign language and trying to save Deaf culture, then trying to maintain it as some sort of "exclusive" club where it's only acceptable if you use it all or most of the time is not the way to do it.t.

Not sure where in my post did you get im ok with bullying anyone. Indeed before i went to Deafie school, when i.first went Deaf hearie kids turned into hungry dogs, and i was bullied by them for being Deaf, when i went to deaf school as i explained in my post which obviously you didnt read too carefully that yes there was bullying, again no place did i say i was ok with it. What i tried to put across was i understood it in hindsight as a reaction childish as it was by children on children, a reaction to hearie dominition, memories of bieng tied up against their will and forced to speak a language they couldnt hear. One can actually have an undstanding of certaiin behavoirs while not supporting them. Every culture has its peramiters. Deaf culture asks and requires one to sign to be accepted in our culture. If you dont like it tough. Go to another culture, say chinese or what ever and see if they will accept you while refusing to learn their language. Good luck with that.

SMost deaf people don't use sign language as their primary means of communicating with other people (whether those other people are hearing or also deaf). Most deaf people don't live and work n circumstances where it would be practical to primarily switch to sign language to communicate in their day-to-day lives. Most deaf people are only going to be part-time sign language users, if that.

I am only writing of culturaly Deaf, we sign. Whether you like it or not. We sign if you dont sign your not Deaf. and our culture will view you as such. I didnt make the rules pal.so dont wag your disdain at me. Im telling you. Fact. If you dont sign. You wont be accepted as one of us. Period.

 

[hoichi]

If you as a deaf person decided to throw away your hearing aids, that was your decision, but that doesn't make it the only acceptable decision for other deaf people. Personally, I think deaf and hoh people have enough difficulties in their lives without worrying about whether Deaf or hearing people are going to accept or judge the way they choose to live. I think each person should use whatever means of communication is best for them, whether it's talking, sign language, lipreading, texting, writing, reading, using hearing aids, cochlear implants - or not - or any combination of these things, on any given day. What is right for you or me may not be right for others.

This is your opiion as an outsider as soneone who doesnt sign.your not culturally Deaf. I respect your opinion. But as it stands my culture doesnt hold your opinion.
The most important thing to do if you want to be accepted as one of us,is to SIGN.
It is our language. if your not going to learn our language then obviously expect us not to accept you as one of us.
Its not an adiological approach. Its not grounded in the medical discourse as deafness being a loss of hearing a measurment of a negative.
Thats not how Deaf cuture views it.
So the quicker you get off that idea the better.
Its simple really.
You want to be accepted as Deaf by us then
SIGN.
Learn our language, its how we view and experience this world. If you dont. Cool. But your not Deaf.
Your just deaf.
someone who lacks hearing.
Big difference as we see it.

 

[Crickets]

Not sure where in my post did you get im ok with bullying anyone. Indeed before i went to Deafie school, when i.first went Deaf hearie kids turned into hungry dogs, and i was bullied by them for being Deaf, when i went to deaf school as i explained in my post which obviously you didnt read too carefully that yes there was bullying, again no place did i say i was ok with it. What i tried to put across was i understood it in hindsight as a reaction childish as it was by children on children, a reaction to hearie dominition, memories of bieng tied up against their will and forced to speak a language they couldnt hear. One can actually have an undstanding of certaiin behavoirs while not supporting them. Every culture has its peramiters. Deaf culture asks and requires one to sign to be accepted in our culture. If you dont like it tough. Go to another culture, say chinese or what ever and see if they will accept you while refusing to learn their language. Good luck with that.


I am only writing of culturaly Deaf, we sign. Whether you like it or not. We sign if you dont sign your not Deaf. and our culture will view you as such. I didnt make the rules pal.so dont wag your disdain at me. Im telling you. Fact. If you dont sign. You wont be accepted as one of us. Period.

In a previous post of yours, you wrote... "When i first went to Deafie school, i was given a choice by Deafie who became close.life long.friends with me. take the aids off your Deaf or hearie cant be both...reflecting on it now, there was 5 of them and one of me i made the smart choice, and trashed the useless aids anyway....it made sense." ...From what you wrote, it sure seemed like you were OK with the bullying behavior on the part of those 5 people towards you. It seemed to me like you were agreeing with their methods because you came to the conclusion that what they did/said made sense and one of them went on to become a lifelong friend of yours. But if you came to understand that what those 5 people did to you was wrong and that it's not OK for Deaf people to treat deaf people with hearing aids like that, then great - it wasn't obvious from what you'd said previously.

I realize that in Deaf culture people use sign, but it seems like some Deaf people aren't very accepting of deaf people who aren't ONLY Deaf. That is the attitude I'm referring to that is not helpful in promoting Deaf culture to others who are not yet a part of it. If I as an outsider see evidence that Deaf people are likely to be judgmental and look down on me if I continue to lipread, talk, and listen to others (because I grew up using those tools), instead of turning primarily to sign language, then why would I want to join your culture? How am I to come to think of Deaf culture as being any better for me than hearing culture?

There are more "bilingual" deaf people or "hearing" deaf people than there are totally "Deaf" deaf people (in terms of how people communicate in their daily lives), and because of hearing aids, cell phones, closed captioning, cochlear implants, and other technology, the number of deaf people who rely only on sign language is likely to continue to decrease. If Deaf people want their culture to grow and flourish, they will need to be more inclusive and accepting of deaf people's other means of communication if they don't want to alienate that population from being part of their culture.

Logically, Deaf culture needs hoh and deaf people (those who would be the most helpful when it comes to perpetuating Deaf culture) than hoh/deaf people need Deaf culture. There are lots more hoh/deaf people than there are Deaf people. But if it's more important to members of Deaf culture to keep the culture "pure"/exclusive rather than facilitating understanding of Deaf culture by being more inclusive and accepting of those who also communicate in other ways besides sign language and/or those who use cochlear implants, then awareness/understanding of Deaf culture will only decrease.

As for me wanting to someday join Deaf culture, since I don't have any reason to and don't see any benefits to me of doing so, that's not likely to happen. I'll never have to worry whether I'm "Deaf enough" because I won't put myself through being judged in that way. Fortunately for me and many others, being part of Deaf culture isn't a requirement of participating in this board. It's alldeaf.com (with a small 'd')

 

[hoichi]

[

In a previous post of yours, you wrote... "When i first went to Deafie school, i was given a choice by Deafie who became close.life long.friends with me. take the aids off your Deaf or hearie cant be both...reflecting on it now, there was 5 of them and one of me i made the smart choice, and trashed the useless aids anyway....it made sense." ...From what you wrote, it sure seemed like you were OK with the bullying behavior on the part of those 5 people towards you. It seemed to me like you were agreeing with their methods because you came to the conclusion that what they did/said made sense and one of them went on to become a lifelong friend of yours. But if you came to understand that what those 5 people did to you was wrong and that it's not OK for Deaf people to treat deaf people with hearing aids like that, then great - it wasn't obvious from what you'd said previously.

Yes it made sense via hindsight and having a firm grasp of my cultures history and oppression. I was writing about the behaviour of 9 year old kids. So, understand indeed kids Deaf or hearie can be cruel. You have no idea what Deaf went through at the hands of hearie, so i think you should start maybe tying your own kids up against their will and forcing them to use a language they cant percieve to get a glimpse on where the reaction I wrote of sprang from. As a start anyway, then deny your kids the right to use their natural language, and see how they feel towards you.

I realize that in Deaf culture people use sign, but it seems like some Deaf people aren't very accepting of deaf people who aren't ONLY Deaf. That is the attitude I'm referring to that is not helpful in promoting Deaf culture to others who are not yet a part of it. If I as an outsider see evidence that Deaf people are likely to be judgmental and look down on me if I continue to lipread, talk, and listen to others (because I grew up using those tools), instead of turning primarily to sign language, then why would I want to join your culture? How am I to come to think of Deaf culture as being any better for me than hearing culture?

Again. If you want to be acceoted by us in our culture you need to sign. period. If you dont want to sign. We wont give much time to you, cool sign is our language. I think its rather rude to expect us to acccept you while refusing to learn our language. So. Learn sign. If not cool, but we wont accept you,nor should we.

There are more "bilingual" deaf people or "hearing" deaf people than there are totally "Deaf" deaf people (in terms of how people communicate in their daily lives), and because of hearing aids, cell phones, closed captioning, cochlear implants, and other technology, the number of deaf people who rely only on sign language is likely to continue to decrease. If Deaf people want their culture to grow and flourish, they will need to be more inclusive and accepting of deaf people's other means of communication if they don't want to alienate that population from being part of their culture.

We accept other means of communication. We use caption, we use txt,but we sign. Its sign that matters. agaiin if your going to come into our house, our community and refuse to learn and use our language then expect us to not accept you.

Logically, Deaf culture needs hoh and deaf people (those who would be the most helpful when it comes to perpetuating Deaf culture) than hoh/deaf people need Deaf culture. There are lots more hoh/deaf people than there are Deaf people. But if it's more important to members of Deaf culture to keep the culture "pure"/exclusive rather than facilitating understanding of Deaf culture by being more inclusive and accepting of those who also communicate in other ways besides sign language and/or those who use cochlear implants, then awareness/understanding of Deaf culture will only decrease.

Meh, really you seem to not know much about us. So here is a hint.
Learn sign, and youll understand were we are comming from.

As for me wanting to someday join Deaf culture, since I don't have any reason to, that's not likely to happen. I'll never have to worry whether I'm "Deaf enough" because I won't put myself through being judged in that way. Fortunately for me and many others, being part of Deaf culture isn't a requirement of participating in this board. It's alldeaf.com (with a small 'd')

Good for you, heres a pat on your back, if you dont see a reason to be a apart of our culture then cool, obviously we see no reason to have you apart of it.
Meh

 

[DeafDucky]

Who is this "We"?

I consider myself as part of the Deaf community (and from reading above a few others do too) but I don't necessarily use sign as a 'primary means' (more of a.. equal? eh...); I do use it but I don't have that opportunity where I am right now (yes it sucks).

I don't think the Deaf community/culture of today is the same as it was 20 years ago... it's evolved. so the 'we' seems more like it is your own opinion hoichi or those who were young 20+ years ago not that of the collective Deaf (well in my view at least).

 

[hoichi]

Who is this "We"?

I consider myself as part of the Deaf community (and from reading above a few others do too) but I don't necessarily use sign as a 'primary means' (more of a.. equal? eh...); I do use it but I don't have that opportunity where I am right now (yes it sucks).

I don't think the Deaf community/culture of today is the same as it was 20 years ago... it's evolved. so the 'we' seems more like it is your own opinion hoichi or those who were young 20+ years ago not that of the collective Deaf (well in my view at least).

I never claimed my culture was the same, on the contrary in my post i even ssid its changed since then re accepting ci and so forth. As to your question as to who we is.
We is Deaf culture. And its not about you or me as an individual where you or i see ourselves, its if you or i are accepted as Deaf by Deaf if we dont sign.
Look
I can believe and hold myself to be anything i want. so can you. Its a post modern world.I can hold myself to.be chinese or a women or a damn martian, or an americsn what ever... its cool.
But
The question is will chinese accept me as chinese if im not? Will i be accepted as an americsn culturally if im not? So on, so forth,
Im involved in my culture. Its not just my opionion. Take my sign for it.
If you dont sign, we as in Deaf culture wont accept you As Deaf.
Your welcome to hold a different opinion.
All cool

 

[deafdyke]

Who is this "We"?

I consider myself as part of the Deaf community (and from reading above a few others do too) but I don't necessarily use sign as a 'primary means' (more of a.. equal? eh...); I do use it but I don't have that opportunity where I am right now (yes it sucks).

I don't think the Deaf community/culture of today is the same as it was 20 years ago... it's evolved. so the 'we' seems more like it is your own opinion hoichi or those who were young 20+ years ago not that of the collective Deaf (well in my view at least).

THANK YOU Deaf Duckie! AMEN!!!!! There are very few monoglot ASLers. Most dhh who sign employ a VARIETY of language options including SPOKEN English..... It's very rare for a dhh kid or young adult to be a monoglot ASLer........

 

[deafdyke]

I am only writing of culturaly Deaf, we sign. Whether you like it or not. We sign if you dont sign your not Deaf. and our culture will view you as such. I didnt make the rules pal.so dont wag your disdain at me. Im telling you. Fact. If you dont sign. You wont be accepted as one of us. Period.

NEWSFLASH! People who use ASL as a secondary language ALSO SIGN!
It doesn't make us less. We just don't sign as much as someone who has ASL as their only/primary language. That's like saying someone is "less Hispanic" b/c they speak fluent Spanish as a secondary language.

 

[deafdyke]

I was writing of MY experience, im Deaf, i went to.i went to a Deaf.res school, i went gally, ive been in Deaf culture for decades.
Its My experience.
Yours obviously differs.
In my experience. If you want us to.accept you, really accept you then you need to sign, not as an aid to english, or an aid to catch what was missed via hearing loss, or sign as a.sometimes second fun language.
The above will only get you so far.
If you want to be accepted in Deaf culture then one should be Deaf.
Its that simple

Exactly.... Your experiance has CHANGED BIG TIME! Honey, back when you were young it was very common for LITTLE kids to be in the dorms....it was common for kids to only get very little speech perception through their body worn aids. Yes, your experiance was DEAD ON for a kid who only heard maybe 20% with a body worn aid, with a profound loss.......but that really has changed! You know, I know of three different deaf kids who are "voice off unaided/unimplanted" in three different Sign using (remember that...Sign using) programs in three different states. Guess what? Their kids feel LEFT OUT b/c the other kids are so verbal!

 

[Bottesini]

Exactly.... Your experiance has CHANGED BIG TIME! Honey, back when you were young it was very common for LITTLE kids to be in the dorms....it was common for kids to only get very little speech perception through their body worn aids. Yes, your experiance was DEAD ON for a kid who only heard maybe 20% with a body worn aid, with a profound loss.......but that really has changed! You know, I know of three different deaf kids who are "voice off unaided/unimplanted" in three different Sign using (remember that...Sign using) programs in three different states. Guess what? Their kids feel LEFT OUT b/c the other kids are so verbal!

What are you talking about? I think he is about your age. And I do know enough people like him, that I can say his views haven't really gone by the wayside.

 

[DeafDucky]

They may not have but it seems to be somewhat of a minority? - maybe there are more but I doubt age has anything to do with it either. I'm sure there are young folks in their 20s who may have the same views. I just don't see it as often now as I did in the late 80s.

In the 80s I knew an older Deaf person who grew up attending deaf school (as far as I know I don't know her whole history) and I don't think they used her voice much if at all.... they married another one of my friends who is hard of hearing and grew up oral- that person didn't learn ASL until in their 30s- in fact when they were dating the HOH partner was still more heavily... 'hearing world focused' and their ASL wasn't fluid or close- but that didn't seem to bother the Deaf person at all.

 

[Bottesini]

They may not have but it seems to be somewhat of a minority? - maybe there are more but I doubt age has anything to do with it either. I'm sure there are young folks in their 20s who may have the same views. I just don't see it as often now as I did in the late 80s.

In the 80s I knew an older Deaf person who grew up attending deaf school (as far as I know I don't know her whole history) and I don't think they used her voice much if at all.... they married another one of my friends who is hard of hearing and grew up oral- that person didn't learn ASL until in their 30s- in fact when they were dating the HOH partner was still more heavily... 'hearing world focused' and their ASL wasn't fluid or close- but that didn't seem to bother the Deaf person at all.

I think you are right. Just pointing out that DD really has no real life experience, and if she did, it would be hard not to have seen more than one Hoichi.

 

[hoichi]

THANK YOU Deaf Duckie! AMEN!!!!! There are very few monoglot ASLers. Most dhh who sign employ a VARIETY of language options including SPOKEN English..... It's very rare for a dhh kid or young adult to be a monoglot ASLer........

No place did I argue one has tobe a monoglot asl user.
Im not.
So its a mute point really to me.

 

[hoichi]

NEWSFLASH! People who use ASL as a secondary language ALSO SIGN!
It doesn't make us less. We just don't sign as much as someone who has ASL as their only/primary language. That's like saying someone is "less Hispanic" b/c they speak fluent Spanish as a secondary language.

Thank you for the newsflash about my culture. I apprecite it. Perhaps this is.a disagreement more of words then anything. My argument is this.simply
If you dont sign, we wont accept you as Deaf.you need to sign or we wont accept you.
Period
Now
We can argue about percenteges, if one signs 20 percent of the time as opposed to 100 percent so on. I think thsts silly but its an important distraction sure.
In MY expeeience. at any Deaf event or gathering if one just shows up and moves their lips like a parot and does not sign.
Expect to.be politely ignored
You need to sign to truly experience our culture.
Dissgree all you want. Its cool. No plm
When i.wrote sign as a primary language i was writing through Deaf eyes. Meaning if youf amongst us you sign, not txt english or sign sometimes as many hh do.
you need to sign with us. Alright. Or we wont accept you as Deaf.
Now i even sign wth hearie, who dont understand sign, mainly to do them a favor of allowing them the opportunity not having to.repeat themselves 50 ttimes before they get im Deaf. But thats a personal choice. in this discussion i was writing through Deaf eyes for Deaf.
One more time, so there is no misunderstsnding.
If you want to be accepted as Deaf by is Deaf you need to sign.

 

[hoichi]

Exactly.... Your experiance has CHANGED BIG TIME! Honey, back when you were young it was very common for LITTLE kids to be in the dorms....it was common for kids to only get very little speech perception through their body worn aids. Yes, your experiance was DEAD ON for a kid who only heard maybe 20% with a body worn aid, with a profound loss.......but that really has changed! You know, I know of three different deaf kids who are "voice off unaided/unimplanted" in three different Sign using (remember that...Sign using) programs in three different states. Guess what? Their kids feel LEFT OUT b/c the other kids are so verbal!

And so are you arguing this is a good thing?

 

[hoichi]

What are you talking about? I think he is about your age. And I do know enough people like him, that I can say his views haven't really gone by the wayside.

Indeed. we are stil here, we are still slinging our signs
Many hoichi haunt the nightmares of those who wish our signs to be forgotton and die...