My friend is convinced ASL isn't a language and there is no such thing as...

RedFox said:
I also remembered that ASL involves subject-object-verb or object-subject-verb syntax and plenty of rhetorical questions and other stuff.

There's also William Stokoe's studies of ASL as its own language and the existence of pages like this.

I'm sure that there are signs that are hard to translate easily into English. Tell him to try translating ASL poetry into English. :D He'll see that it's not a one-to-one mapping from the signs to words, like it would be for SEE.

I once worked on a project in middle school to interview Deaf adults about their lives and tried to translate the taped interviews to written English. It was hard and I had to rewind to catch everything because the structures of the languages are different.

Saying that ASL is a branch of English is as crazy as saying Lojban is too. If he's so logical, he'll love Lojban. :D
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Translating ASL poetry into English? LOL! If that won't convince him, nothing will.

What's Lojban, btw?
 
imdeafsowhat said:
One question;

If you are saying ASL is a language, is SEE a language too or just signing EVERY word exactly?
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No, it's simply a mode of English in signed form. It could be said that Morse code is a mode of English in telegraphic form.
 
Music_Life said:
Yeah, he still says that he thinks ASL is only used as communication but we're done debating about it,
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This thread would be more productive if you gave more information on his reasining than short updates about your debate. Reading this part above I assume he thinks ASL is not a language because there is no written form of it. Then we should look into what is the criteria of language. There is definations below:

1. a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are of the same community or nation, the same geographical area, or the same cultural tradition: the two languages of Belgium; a Bantu language; the French language; the Yiddish language.
2. communication by voice in the distinctively human manner, using arbitrary sounds in conventional ways with conventional meanings; speech.
3. the system of linguistic signs or symbols considered in the abstract (opposed to speech).
4. any set or system of such symbols as used in a more or less uniform fashion by a number of people, who are thus enabled to communicate intelligibly with one another.
5. any system of formalized symbols, signs, sounds, gestures, or the like used or conceived as a means of communicating thought, emotion, etc.: the language of mathematics; sign language.
6. the means of communication used by animals: the language of birds.
7. communication of meaning in any way; medium that is expressive, significant, etc.: the language of flowers; the language of art.

It is not required to have a written form in order to be considered as a language. The word "language" comes from Latin "lingua" . It means tongue, speech. As you see having a written form is not a prerequisite.

The fact that ASL is being a language doesnt depend on the existence of deaf culture. Even if there was no deaf culture, it still wouldnt affect the status of ASL as a language.

Your friend probably, first mixes all the subjects together, and then switches between them every time you challenge his ideas in order to protect his position in debate. You should define the subject you are discussing clearly in order to prevent such tactics that are only used for dominating the arguments.

Hermes
 
Music_Life said:
Deaf Culture.


My friend is a very logical person, in debate and always has to be right. We're both hearing but I don't really know how that matters here.


We've had this on-going debate over if ASL is a real language and if there is such a thing as 'Deaf Culture' I have many supportive points and he's still convinced that its just 'a branch of english' and ' its not a culture, its a group of people' (Which is just lame, I'm big on Anthropology, the study of cultures, and he doesn't know much about that)

Any help on how I can convince him he's wrong, or at least to come to a half way point where we are both satisfied?

Thanks :ty:
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your friend is wrong ASL is real language and it is for the deaf by using hands
 
Music_Life said:
We disagree on at least 97% of things, the only thing we agree on is Music, ha ha. We're different religions, and from different backgrounds, and none of our disagreements hurts our friendships.
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Sorry but we don't agree on music either. One mans treasure is another mans trash. Music is art and as such it's highly subjective. While you might find many that share the same tastes in music you will also find much dis-agreement. Nice try though.
 
SimplyMints said:
Just a couple of quick thoughts I found amusing about this:

What else is language for if not communication? :hmm:

Also (and somebody else already mentioned this), a group of people defines a culture. Yes, I took a human geography class in college and passed with A-, and the definition of culture was part of it. I don't remember the exact definition, but I do remember it being very easy to define any culture, and Deaf Culture very easily meets its definition.
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there are languages that are not used for communication. Computer programming languages are an example.
 
Yea, ASL is a language, but it is a language completely separate from English. Maybe that's why your friend doesn't understand ASL...
 
imdeafsowhat said:
No, the programmer is telling the computer to do this and that. The programmer gets tell by his boss or his mind. That's the only communication a programmer can get.
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What do you mean? I tell my computer what to do by typing in a computer language. A drill sergeant tells his squad what to do by yelling in a human language. My brain tells me what to tell the computer to do, but there's definitely communication between me and the computer. Otherwise, the computer would do nothing due to its inability to read my thoughts. The commander's brain tells him what to tell his squad to do. His squad cannot read his mind any more than my computer can read my mind. He's using a language, and so am I. We're communicating with our audience. Our audience is taking orders from us. They communicate back to us by acknowledging our orders and responding with the appropriate (or inappropriate) feedback.
 
SimplyMints said:
What do you mean? I tell my computer what to do by typing in a computer language. A drill sergeant tells his squad what to do by yelling in a human language. My brain tells me what to tell the computer to do, but there's definitely communication between me and the computer. Otherwise, the computer would do nothing due to its inability to read my thoughts. The commander's brain tells him what to tell his squad to do. His squad cannot read his mind any more than my computer can read my mind. He's using a language, and so am I. We're communicating with our audience. Our audience is taking orders from us. They communicate back to us by acknowledging our orders and responding with the appropriate (or inappropriate) feedback.
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LoL


Computer isn't able to talk back. No feedbacks. It's all on you. Granted, programming is the most stressed job in the world.

Audience only see the results of the project the programmers are working on.

Commander as in the Boss, of course, he's the guy with the ideas, the programmer just types in what the computer needs to know so when it's all established, the computer will not need the programmer anymore for it can function on its own.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
LoL


Computer isn't able to talk back. No feedbacks. It's all on you. Granted, programming is the most stressed job in the world.

Audience only see the results of the project the programmers are working on.

Commander as in the Boss, of course, he's the guy with the ideas, the programmer just types in what the computer needs to know so when it's all established, the computer will not need the programmer anymore for it can function on its own.
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If the computer doesn't respond, I throw it away.

When my instructor is finished teaching his course to me, I don't need him any more because I function on my own.
 
iamdeafsowhat said:
there are languages that are not used for communication. Computer programming languages are an example.
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SimplyMints said:
What do you mean? I tell my computer what to do by typing in a computer language. A drill sergeant tells his squad what to do by yelling in a human language. My brain tells me what to tell the computer to do, but there's definitely communication between me and the computer. Otherwise, the computer would do nothing due to its inability to read my thoughts. The commander's brain tells him what to tell his squad to do. His squad cannot read his mind any more than my computer can read my mind. He's using a language, and so am I. We're communicating with our audience. Our audience is taking orders from us. They communicate back to us by acknowledging our orders and responding with the appropriate (or inappropriate) feedback.
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You are starting this discussion from a couple steps further though. There is no entity called computer which can understand your commands at the beginning. So you basically can not communicate with it. First you create this logic system called computer using a low level computer language. Its still a computer language but without it there is only circuits and electricity , not the computer itself in a sense we understand today. Only then you get a computer that you can communicate with using one of the high level computer languages.

Human languages are like those high level computer languages. There already is a human, human DNA is already contain the neccesary codes (like low level computer languages) and human already function by himself. Human languages are only there for communicating between self functioning humans. Computer on the other hand depends on human for its existence. Therefore whats called a computer language can both refer a way of communication with the computer, or the code that gives the computer an existence.

I think you are both right , computer languages are used for the purposes you both defined at different levels .


-
 
Black's Law Dictionary

As an attorney I can tell you that Black's is a great resource but not the end all and be all of accuracy.

Just remember (also as an attorney) some people just like to argue. The more he defends a faulty premise the dummer he appears--

dboam
 
rockdrummer said:
Sorry but we don't agree on music either. One mans treasure is another mans trash. Music is art and as such it's highly subjective. While you might find many that share the same tastes in music you will also find much dis-agreement. Nice try though.
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That post wasn't necessary.
 
There are some people who just refuse to learn anything and demand to stay ignorant...why waste your time on him? You did what you could to inform him. Like the saying, "you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink."
 
Music_Life said:
That post wasn't necessary.
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Sorry no offense intended. I suppose if you share the same taste in music as your friend then perhaps you don't disagree on it. I guess my comment was more a general one from my experience as a musician and someone that loves music.
 
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