My friend is convinced ASL isn't a language and there is no such thing as...

VamPyroX said:
I know some people who cannot understand or will misunderstand what is being said in English because of the ASL structure that they follow. I've tutored some students who claim that NTID isn't following Deaf Culture because their English assignments are "too hard" or follow English when they should follow ASL. That's the kind of people I'm talking about.

I have some friends who can sign ASL, but they can also sign SEE and PSE. However, other deaf people will look at these as not being part of Deaf Culture because they know more than ASL and that doesn't fit the profile of a Deaf person.
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That's strange, disowning someone from a culture for knowing unapproved material. What about interpreters who have to know all of those?

This reminds me of a guy who was in my high school. When I was staying after school with my mom and sister there, that guy was there for some reason and saw me signing. My sister told me that he said sign language wasn't real. :crazy:
 
VamPyroX said:
You're right, everyone is exposed to another language one way or another.

What I'm referring to are those who communicate in only ASL, write in ASL, etc.

I know some people who cannot understand or will misunderstand what is being said in English because of the ASL structure that they follow. I've tutored some students who claim that NTID isn't following Deaf Culture because their English assignments are "too hard" or follow English when they should follow ASL. That's the kind of people I'm talking about.
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Trust me, this is the least of NTID's problems. When I was very for a brief time, I believed that RIT was holding back NTID.
 
RedFox said:
That's strange, disowning someone from a culture for knowing unapproved material. What about interpreters who have to know all of those?

This reminds me of a guy who was in my high school. When I was staying after school with my mom and sister there, that guy was there for some reason and saw me signing. My sister told me that he said sign language wasn't real. :crazy:
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Funny that you mention about a guy who saw you doing the signing and then told your sister that Sign Language was not real. I think it is like saying that he never saw a sign language before and he probably thought there was no sign language for the deaf now that we have speech and lipreading. That is how audist the guy was. He just do not believe there is any sign language at all. How weird. The audists just do not understand anything about our deafness and why it is important for us Deafies to have ASL. I guess he had to see if there is really sign language that you sign for your mom or any other deaf person. I think I am not making myself clear on this. It is like for us natives many years ago before the white men came to our World that we saw a white people for the first time. Other natives would say Nah, there is no white people coming over to our World until they see them and actually meet them and knowling they are white people. Well, maybe it is same with nonbeliever in ASL and audist at that does not believe that ASL existed. :cool2:
 
VamPyroX said:
You're right, everyone is exposed to another language one way or another.

What I'm referring to are those who communicate in only ASL, write in ASL, etc.

I know some people who cannot understand or will misunderstand what is being said in English because of the ASL structure that they follow. I've tutored some students who claim that NTID isn't following Deaf Culture because their English assignments are "too hard" or follow English when they should follow ASL. That's the kind of people I'm talking about.

I have some friends who can sign ASL, but they can also sign SEE and PSE. However, other deaf people will look at these as not being part of Deaf Culture because they know more than ASL and that doesn't fit the profile of a Deaf person.
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U must hang out with some extriminists because the Deaf community here in MD do not make a big deal about who is "Deaf" enough...at least that is what I dont see here in MD.

Well, those Deaf people do know English..just have trouble with grammar rules, that's all. Obviously they either were language delayed during their early years or whatever school they went didnt emphasize the correct English grammar.
 
shel90 said:
U must hang out with some extriminists because the Deaf community here in MD do not make a big deal about who is "Deaf" enough...at least that is what I dont see here in MD.
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Maryland Deaf rules!!!!! Woooohhooo!!!:mrgreen:


Totally unrelated to conversation at hand but i had to shout it. I'm not deaf but i do live in Maryland.
 
Well, I don't think ASL is an "academic" language but it is really a language, just not as evolved as most languages spoken are today. Two major reasons: First reason is the education among the deaf is substantially worse than the education among the hearing and the language often reflects what they know, not because of the limitations of signing itself. The well educated deaf often throw plenty of "english signs" into their ASL or use lots of fingerspelling. Second reason is ASL itself is only like 200 years old while most languages are over thousand of years old.
 
netrox said:
Well, I don't think ASL is an "academic" language but it is really a language, just not as evolved as most languages spoken are today. Two major reasons: First reason is the education among the deaf is substantially worse than the education among the hearing and the language often reflects what they know, not because of the limitations of signing itself. The well educated deaf often throw plenty of "english signs" into their ASL or use lots of fingerspelling. Second reason is ASL itself is only like 200 years old while most languages are over thousand of years old.
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That is why I cant understand it when people say that Deaf schools are ASL only schools..kids learn both.

As a teacher for the Deaf, it is not because the education for the deaf is worse..it is cuz so many kids enter elementary school so language delayed and many of us deaf ed teachers are spent doing remedial work to try to get these kids all caught up.

Trust me.. where I work at, we use the public school curriculm and we are working hard to get many of our language-delayed kids on par with their hearing counterparts.

It is not cuz of ASL..it is cuz they did not have full access to any language during their formative years (birth to 5 years old).

Because we get so many kids referred to the Deaf schools after they have fallen so far behind in the public schools, the Deaf schools have a larger ratio of kids doing poorly on the assessments making us look bad. Not only that, the assessments are designed for hearing children and are biased so they are not really valid.

There are so many factors involved so people really need to stop pointing their fingers to Deaf ed.

If u are referring to 30 or so years ago, maybe that could be true but things have changed now for the better. If we can just get these kids not become language delayed, that's all.
 
Forget dictionaries for defining 'culture'. You're into anthropology, so you might understand Raymond Williams' etymology of the word "culture" which he states at the beginning is "one of the two or three most complicated words in the English language".

Raymond Williams, Keywords

It's an incredibly slippery term. But here's a short example:
"Culture is a broad term that is used to describe particular ways of life, whether for a group of people or a period of time. A way of life can be known as a 'culture' if there are collectively understood representations of customs, traditions, beliefs or values shared by a group or prevailing during a period."
 
One question;

If you are saying ASL is a language, is SEE a language too or just signing EVERY word exactly?
 
imdeafsowhat said:
One question;

If you are saying ASL is a language, is SEE a language too or just signing EVERY word exactly?
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I'm new to this debate, but this is how I see it:

Although it doesn't have to be a natural language in order to be a real language, I personally believe SEE is no more a separate language from spoken English than written English is separate from spoken English.

I also believe ASL, on the other hand, is fully a separate language from all three.
 
No offense but your friend is ignorant. Have that person simply do some research. There is plenty of information on both topics. ASL as a language and deaf culture.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
One question;

If you are saying ASL is a language, is SEE a language too or just signing EVERY word exactly?
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As I understand it SEE is manually coded English whereas ASL is a language of its own.

English is a verbal language and all SEE does is take that verbal language and make it manual by signing the exact English words following English rules for syntax and grammar.

ASL is a language of it's own with it's own unique syntax and grammar and is also a manual (signed) language. I'm sure there is more to it and I am not expert enough to fully explain.
 
imdeafsowhat said:
One question;

If you are saying ASL is a language, is SEE a language too or just signing EVERY word exactly?
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Yes, SEE is English. It is simply a manual mode of English. It is not a separate language in its own right as is ASL.

Whether every word is signed exactly would depend on if one is using SEE1 or SEE2.
 
That would be like saying Braille is a language, but it is just another system of English. Key words: American Sign LANGUAGE. Signing Exact ENGLISH.
 
kimpossible said:
Forget dictionaries for defining 'culture'. You're into anthropology, so you might understand Raymond Williams' etymology of the word "culture" which he states at the beginning is "one of the two or three most complicated words in the English language".

Raymond Williams, Keywords

It's an incredibly slippery term. But here's a short example:
"Culture is a broad term that is used to describe particular ways of life, whether for a group of people or a period of time. A way of life can be known as a 'culture' if there are collectively understood representations of customs, traditions, beliefs or values shared by a group or prevailing during a period."
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Cool! Thanks for the link! It'll distract me for my homework for a while that I don't want to do, HAH!


yeah, we're pretty much given up, we'll make a few remarks here and there about it, but its our daily banter that we always have, we're just both staying with our side of the argument.
 
Music_Life said:
Cool! Thanks for the link! It'll distract me for my homework for a while that I don't want to do, HAH!


yeah, we're pretty much given up, we'll make a few remarks here and there about it, but its our daily banter that we always have, we're just both staying with our side of the argument.[/QUOTE]

I am glad to hear that..probably not worth to have this hurt your friendship with him. :)
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We disagree on at least 97% of things, the only thing we agree on is Music, ha ha. We're different religions, and from different backgrounds, and none of our disagreements hurts our friendships.
 
Ok, ASL isn't a language. It is a SIGN LANGUAGE.


Simple. Hahaha.

ASL isn't a spoken language. I'm just here to clarify some things.

SEE1 OR SEE2? There's different SEE(s)?
 
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