My 2-month old son has severe hearing loss

[JennyB]

Why is it that there are people who believe you have to know ASL to be a complete deaf person?

I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that you need to know ASL to be a complete deaf person. I think the claim is that you need to know ASL to be a complete Deaf person. That is a very real and true statement and I don't think it can be debated very easily. While it is true that not all deaf individuals will want to embrace Deaf culture and community, many deaf individuals will feel the need and drive to align with their culture.

This drive to find socialized identity is true of all people. If you are a Christian, you may seek out a church and people who share your religeous views. If you are part of a visible or ethnic minority, you may seek out people with the same ethinicity. If you are d/Deaf, you may seek out other people who are d/Deaf. The key word is may!

The funny thing with Deaf culture is that it is more often than not a culture that is only truly accessible by one member of the family, in the case of this discussion that person is the child. While I cannot possibly understand what it is like for a parent to experience a cultural divide with their own child, I can empathise from the side of the child.

I know I didn't make any distinct effort to reduce the cultural divide between me and my parents. If anything I went out of my way to enhance it. My parents started signing with me as soon as they found out I had a hearing loss. I was language delayed and didn't speak until I was around 3. I signed until I started speaking and once I started speaking my vocabularly blossumed. I went from from being language delayed to completely cought up in my development in the matter of a year. By the time I was 7 my SLP was telling my parents I was now ahead in my language development. No one signed with me anymore and I didn't feel a need to sign with anyone either.

As time went on and I grew into a young woman I realised my differences more. No one was protecting me anymore and I liked that but suddenly the world became scary and I was isolated. I wasn't surrounded by people who knew how to communicate with me and I was really alone. I chose to seek out connections that aligned with all of my socialized identities. I found other d/Deaf people to be my primary group of friends. I was able to do seek out that community because of my grasp on ASL. I am not saying that this is a universal experience for all oral deaf children. I have friends that were raised oral and remain oral to this day - with no drive to learn ASL. I am simply speaking of my experience.

 

[shel90]

Of course I don't know your child better than you. However, I find it interesting that you referred to trying to teach your child sign language as an infant. But, the older she gets, she may become far more receptive to sign language. As an older child or as an adult, she will not be able to ignore that she is deaf. And, from a social aspect with other deaf children, sign language may very well be something she will enjoy. Also, as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, speech-reading is very taxing, very hard on the eyes after prolonged periods of time, whereas sign language is not (or at least not anywhere near as much.) So being entirely auditory is not easy.[/QUOTEs

sorry shel90, the comment came from this posting. Not every adult who grow up wants to learn ASL. Some people are just oral. I am learning ASL, but having a difficult time. I am thinking very seriously to moving to Cued Speech instead.

Still I dont see anyone saying that one must know ASL to be a complete deaf person. Maybe I am missing something here.

During the first 3 years, learning ASL was difficult for me but after that when I "got" it, it became easier.

 

[shel90]

How is focusing on just one "tool" in the best interest of a child? Refusing to expose a child to all available resources they can have doesn't do anything BUT limit them. This has been the on-going controversy for quite some time now, and it appears there is a very divided opinion between those of us who are deaf and have lived this kind of life (as well as family members including parents or siblings of a deaf child) -- and those who are encountering a deaf child for the first time, and all most of those parents want to do is close the door on available resources for the child.

I agree..I did well with the oral-only approach from the beginning so it was determined by the specialists and my family that it was the best for me. Little did they know!!! This is why I feel strongly the way I do about giving every deaf child both insitead of one or the other.

 

[shel90]

If your child demosntrates a preference for one particular method or relies upon one method over others or readily/easily picks up one method over others then it very well may be in the best interest of that child to focus primarily or almost exclusively on one method as your are following the lead that the child is giving you. In my daughter's case, she is auditory in nature, it is how she learns best, once she received her ci her spoken language exploded, she has never, and still to this day have any interest in sign and as an infant if you tried to sign to her or use signs to re-enforce words, sounds or concepts she would ignore the sign.

That's just one example of how it is in the best interest of a child or do you claim to know my child better than we do merely because you are deaf? Did not know that being deaf allowed you to know the needs and wants of children you have never met better than the parents who are actively involved in their child's life?
Rick

 

[rick48]

I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that you need to know ASL to be a complete deaf person. I think the claim is that you need to know ASL to be a complete Deaf person. That is a very real and true statement and I don't think it can be debated very easily. While it is true that not all deaf individuals will want to embrace Deaf culture and community, many deaf individuals will feel the need and drive to align with their culture.

This drive to find socialized identity is true of all people. If you are a Christian, you may seek out a church and people who share your religeous views. If you are part of a visible or ethnic minority, you may seek out people with the same ethinicity. If you are d/Deaf, you may seek out other people who are d/Deaf. The key word is may!

The funny thing with Deaf culture is that it is more often than not a culture that is only truly accessible by one member of the family, in the case of this discussion that person is the child. While I cannot possibly understand what it is like for a parent to experience a cultural divide with their own child, I can empathise from the side of the child.

I know I didn't make any distinct effort to reduce the cultural divide between me and my parents. If anything I went out of my way to enhance it. My parents started signing with me as soon as they found out I had a hearing loss. I was language delayed and didn't speak until I was around 3. I signed until I started speaking and once I started speaking my vocabularly blossumed. I went from from being language delayed to completely cought up in my development in the matter of a year. By the time I was 7 my SLP was telling my parents I was now ahead in my language development. No one signed with me anymore and I didn't feel a need to sign with anyone either.

As time went on and I grew into a young woman I realised my differences more. No one was protecting me anymore and I liked that but suddenly the world became scary and I was isolated. I wasn't surrounded by people who knew how to communicate with me and I was really alone. I chose to seek out connections that aligned with all of my socialized identities. I found other d/Deaf people to be my primary group of friends. I was able to do seek out that community because of my grasp on ASL. I am not saying that this is a universal experience for all oral deaf children. I have friends that were raised oral and remain oral to this day - with no drive to learn ASL. I am simply speaking of my experience.

Great post!
Rick

 

[faire_jour]

By the way, my daughter has ZERO trouble communicating with hearing people with no experience with ASL. She is terribly bright and can adapt to any situation. She understands that other people speak to communicate and she has no desire to learn. She is able to explain her desires and needs to ANYONE, regardless of her "articulation skills".

 

[JennyB]

Great post!
Rick

Thank you!

 

[shel90]

By the way, my daughter has ZERO trouble communicating with hearing people with no experience with ASL. She is terribly bright and can adapt to any situation. She understands that other people speak to communicate and she has no desire to learn. She is able to explain her desires and needs to ANYONE, regardless of her "articulation skills".

Yea, despite what many people think, deaf people who have little or no oral skills find ways to communicate with hearing people. My deaf brother who has no oral skills drove all the way from AZ to MD alone. If that is not independence, then I dont know what is! I am tired of people basing success on how well a deaf person can speak. It is old..very old news. it is all about knowledge, literacy and one's ability to stand up for themselves.

 

[AlleyCat]

Of course I don't know your child better than you. However, I find it interesting that you referred to trying to teach your child sign language as an infant. But, the older she gets, she may become far more receptive to sign language. As an older child or as an adult, she will not be able to ignore that she is deaf. And, from a social aspect with other deaf children, sign language may very well be something she will enjoy. Also, as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, speech-reading is very taxing, very hard on the eyes after prolonged periods of time, whereas sign language is not (or at least not anywhere near as much.) So being entirely auditory is not easy.[/QUOTEs

sorry shel90, the comment came from this posting. Not every adult who grow up wants to learn ASL. Some people are just oral. I am learning ASL, but having a difficult time. I am thinking very seriously to moving to Cued Speech instead.

Vallee, I never once said that a person must know ASL in order to be a complete deaf person. I only said that sign language can help or be something a deaf person CAN enjoy. Did I say MUST? No. And, I was under the mistaken impression that Rick's daughter was still very young so I said she may want to learn sign language later - but I learned from Rick's later post that she is already 21, and if she chooses not to want to learn sign language now that she's an adult, that's perfectly fine.

 

[Cloggy]

You got it Cloggy, they just don't get it. Can't wait to see the video.
Rick

Here it is....

 

[R2D2]

Yea, despite what many people think, deaf people who have little or no oral skills find ways to communicate with hearing people. My deaf brother who has no oral skills drove all the way from AZ to MD alone. If that is not independence, then I dont know what is! I am tired of people basing success on how well a deaf person can speak. It is old..very old news. it is all about knowledge, literacy and one's ability to stand up for themselves.

At the moment my daughter who is hearing is learning to read and as part of that process I read aloud to her every night as well. We are reading the pony pals series, which is quite wordy and I imagine that as she is a real book lover already, that we will be doing this for many years to come with even wordier books. If I didn't have any or little oral skills - how would I be able to do that with my daughter without it being slow and cumbersome?

I seem to have reflections like this quite often when I realise that without my CI and oral skills, it would be difficult to do these things. I think you have an older daughter who is hearing, so what do you do as a deaf parent when reading aloud from wordy books?

Sometimes, I think that the usefulness of having oral skills is brushed over like it's nothing and not needed. I may have got the wrong impression so correct me if I have indeed got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[AlleyCat]

R2D2, oral skills are needed! I've been told I speak very well -- that I don't even have a deaf "accent". And, I think my oral skills have helped me throughout my life. I was born deaf; I got my first hearing aids at about 15 months old and learned to sign first. When I was about 2 we began working on my oral skills. So between my oral skills, signing (and therefore having interpreters in school later), and hearing aids, I feel very well-rounded and got through school as easiest as was possible. You are right that oral skills are needed and helpful. I just don't want sign language skills to be discounted.

 

[shel90]

At the moment my daughter who is hearing is learning to read and as part of that process I read aloud to her every night as well. We are reading the pony pals series, which is quite wordy and I imagine that as she is a real book lover already, that we will be doing this for many years to come with even wordier books. If I didn't have any or little oral skills - how would I be able to do that with my daughter without it being slow and cumbersome?

I seem to have reflections like this quite often when I realise that without my CI and oral skills, it would be difficult to do these things. I think you have an older daughter who is hearing, so what do you do as a deaf parent when reading aloud from wordy books?

Sometimes, I think that the usefulness of having oral skills is brushed over like it's nothing and not needed. I may have got the wrong impression so correct me if I have indeed got the wrong end of the stick.

At the time she was little, I was just starting to learn ASL and was using Sim-Com when reading to her which I wasnt aware what a big mistake that was at the time. Now, my daughter reads books herself now but her ASL skills are much more fluent now so I am starting to use ASL with her. I use ASL when reading books to my hearing son. My son is very expressive when using ASL so I just naturally use it with him. It doesnt feel natural to use spoken language with him. He does use it with his hearing relatives but not with my husband, my deaf friends, or me. It is interesting.

 

[R2D2]

R2D2, oral skills are needed! I've been told I speak very well -- that I don't even have a deaf "accent". And, I think my oral skills have helped me throughout my life. I was born deaf; I got my first hearing aids at about 15 months old and learned to sign first. When I was about 2 we began working on my oral skills. So between my oral skills, signing (and therefore having interpreters in school later), and hearing aids, I feel very well-rounded and got through school as easiest as was possible. You are right that oral skills are needed and helpful. I just don't want sign language skills to be discounted.

Neither do I. I think there is a good argument for deaf kids starting off with sign so as to get language acquisition started as soon as possible. But I guess the message I sometimes see in posts is that very little oral language is needed by deaf people to function in all aspects of life and I (and obviously you) just do not find that in personal experience. Some people say (not in this thread) all you need is written English and that can be used to substitute English in its oral form but the personal example that I gave in my post wouldn't work that way. It seems clear that different modes are useful for different things.

I think that when it comes down to it, we probably all agree - a toolbox is useful but I guess the emphasis on the different tools is what differs!

 

[shel90]

Neither do I. I think there is a good argument for deaf kids starting off with sign so as to get language acquisition started as soon as possible. But I guess the message I sometimes see in posts is that very little oral language is needed by deaf people to function in all aspects of life and I (and obviously you) just do not find that in personal experience. Some people say (not in this thread) all you need is written English and that can be used to substitute English in its oral form but the personal example that I gave in my post wouldn't work that way. It seems clear that different modes are useful for different things.

I think that when it comes down to it, we probably all agree - a toolbox is useful but I guess the emphasis on the different tools is what differs!

Not little is needed but just showing that there are many deaf people without oral skills who were able to lead productive and happy lives. I am all for giving every deaf child the chance to develop oral skills but in my experience, not all will be able to so we have to stop looking at what they cant do but rather at what they can do and teach them how to utilize those skills/strengths to the best of their ability rather than just looking at them for their lack of oral skills like some people do. That was the whole point of my posts about this issue.

 

[R2D2]

At the time she was little, I was just starting to learn ASL and was using Sim-Com when reading to her which I wasnt aware what a big mistake that was at the time. Now, my daughter reads books herself now but her ASL skills are much more fluent now so I am starting to use ASL with her. I use ASL when reading books to my hearing son. My son is very expressive when using ASL so I just naturally use it with him. It doesnt feel natural to use spoken language with him. He does use it with his hearing relatives but not with my husband, my deaf friends, or me. It is interesting.

Yes, I can see that transliterating with toddler level books is something that is very doable with ASL. They are short, simple and not quite so tiring!

The books I am currently reading with my daughter, she can't yet read by herself (she is 5) maybe in a year or two but she really enjoys listening to me reading the story to her. My mother used to do the same with us with the Enid Blyton books, so it's nice to do something that I found so enjoyable as a child.

 

[AlleyCat]

And it's a good point, Shel.

 

[R2D2]

Not little is needed but just showing that there are many deaf people without oral skills who were able to lead productive and happy lives. I am all for giving every deaf child the chance to develop oral skills but in my experience, not all will be able to so we have to stop looking at what they cant do but rather at what they can do and teach them how to utilize those skills/strengths to the best of their ability rather than just looking at them for their lack of oral skills like some people do. That was the whole point of my posts about this issue.

Yes, I realise that you are taking a positive attitude and I'm not having a go at that. However, I am just seeing how much easier many everyday things are just through having oral and hearing skills (especially in relation to parenting and work) and do find for myself that when people minimize the need for such skills that it somehow feels like a platitude.

It goes to show how different we are.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

By the way, my daughter has ZERO trouble communicating with hearing people with no experience with ASL. She is terribly bright and can adapt to any situation. She understands that other people speak to communicate and she has no desire to learn. She is able to explain her desires and needs to ANYONE, regardless of her "articulation skills".

That's awesome! Not everyone can do that.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

By the way, shel, R2D2 and Alley Cat, equally, you all made good points, which I agree with.

R2D2, I loved reading Enid Blyton in my childhood, too!