MSNBC: Texas to let teachers bring guns to school

[jillio]

any proof? study? anything at all to corrobarate your assumption?

From the man who has nothing.....

 

[sequoias]

that'd be funny to see school shooter using nerf gun

D'oh!

 

[jillio]

actually no. these teachers work at school for years. the administrations and counselors know the teachers - basically like family! friends! it's easy to check on them but students come and go and you have many different type of cases/variables/etc. on each of them... too difficult.

You really don't have any idea what you are talking about.:roll:

 

[Jiro]

From the man who has nothing.....

waiting..... anything at all? is that all you can come up with? a poor un-witty zing?

You really don't have any idea what you are talking about.:roll:

neither do you. that's ok. that's to be expected on any issues. that's why the coin has 2 sides.

 

[jillio]

waiting..... anything at all? is that all you can come up with? a poor un-witty zing?


neither do you. that's ok. that's to be expected on any issues. that's why the coin has 2 sides.

You are pitiful, Mr. No Substantiation I Pull Figures and Conclusions Out of My Butt! Gonna answer the questions posted in my previous post regarding your friend at Virginia Tech?

 

[Jiro]

You are pitiful, Mr. No Substantiation I Pull Figures and Conclusions Out of My Butt!

Reba already showed you a link of principal and his gun. I showed you statistic of major school shootings. We have not heard in news about teachers nor armed students going bersek. You have yet to show to us any single link/claim/proof of "armed average citizen" going berserk and trigger-happy in terms of self-defense. No I'm not talking about some isolated incidents where it's involved in domestic violence or gang violence.

We have already proved to you that a gun-free environment is a lethal place to die because it's an easy target for crazed shooter. remember mall massacres? crazed postal shootings?

 

[jillio]

Reba already showed you a link of principal and his gun. I showed you statistic of major school shootings. We have not heard in news about teachers nor armed students going bersek. You have yet to show to us any single link/claim/proof of "armed average citizen" going berserk and trigger-happy in terms of self-defense. No I'm not talking about some isolated incidents where it's involved in domestic violence or gang violence.

Relying on Reba to do your work for you? Come on, jiro! You have made any number of claims/assertions/conclusions in this thread that you have been asked tosubstantiate, and you have failed to provide a single piece of substantiation for anything. You simply skip over those posts, and try todivert the subject, hoping that no one will notice that you can't back your claims up. And domestic and gang violence is far less isolated that the incidence of shool shootings.
We have already proved to you that a gun-free environment is a lethal place to die because it's an easy target for crazed shooter. remember mall massacres? crazed postal shootings?

Once again, can you stick to the topic at hand? We are discussing teachers in high schools going armed. One issue has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

 

[Jiro]

ignoring your post for now.... I'll respond to it once you come up with anything to back up your concern. I'll give you a simple math. Armed Students since August 2006.... NOT ONE INCIDENT of accidental/panicked shooting! Arming teachers will be the same.

It's such a nice beautiful day. Gonna enjoy it. Meanwhile - for your homework... read SCCC - Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Mind you - they are not affiliated with NRA, a political party, or any other organization. They're comprised of students, faculty, teachers, and citizens.

SCCC has two main objectives. The first objective is to educate the public about the facts of concealed carry and dispel the many myths about concealed carry. The second objective is to push state legislatures and school administrations to grant concealed handgun license holders the same right—the right to carry concealed handguns—on college campuses that these license holders currently enjoy at most other places (movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, banks, etc).

FACTS (extracted from its site):
1. Every day millions of licensed Americans legally carry concealed handguns in movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, banks, churches, etc.
2. Numerous studies show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.
3. Campus "gun free zones" may make some people feel safer, but as recent events demonstrate, feeling safe is not the same as being safe.

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said college students carrying guns on campus will not make anyone safer. He pointed to studies showing that college students are more likely to engage in risky behavior than the general population.

“When I look back on my college days, maybe it was a different era in the late ‘60s, but most of my fraternity brothers didn’t have criminal records – not yet, most of them, even those who were in ROTC and hunters – (but) the behaviors they exhibited weren’t the kind of behaviors that gave me confidence that packing guns in their lockers or in their rooms would make me safer,” Helmke said.

John Lott, author and Second Amendment advocate. (Photo by Penny Starr/CNSNews.com)
Lott argued that the designation of gun-free zones on college campuses, including Virginia Tech, can inadvertently lead to such tragedies.

“Rather than creating safe zones for victims, we may unintentionally be creating safe zones for criminals who are doing the attacks and who have less to worry about,” said Lott, a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland. He added that only law-abiding citizens respect the kinds of restrictions that campuses like Virginia Tech have placed on students.

Lott also cited statistics showing that individuals with permits to carry concealed guns are rarely involved in criminal activities, and in some cases have helped end a deadly rampage, such as the Colorado Springs, Colo., church shooting last year where a church security guard with a gun permit stopped the shooter.

“The media likes to paint us as paranoid about mass shootings on campus,” Guzman said, adding that his group is the first to admit these kinds of events are rare.

“What we are more concerned about are the types of crimes that happen on a daily basis on our campuses across the country. These crimes are rape, assault, robberies … these are things we should be able to protect ourselves against,” he said.

“Allowing handguns does provide extra protection and extra deterrent against crime,” Jeremy Schwab, a graduate student at the University of Texas Dallas, told CNSNews.com. “It’s not a one-stop solution but provides a deterrent, and I feel very comfortable with people who have fulfilled their requirement to be able to carry.”

 

[Jiro]

Anti-Gun

Allison Gross, an intern with the Brady Campaign, told CNSNews.com that she was against students having guns on campus.

“I think it’s absolutely ludicrous, and there’s no need for it,” Gross said. “I don’t think you can make the argument that if you had a gun on campus you could have stopped the Virginia Tech (rampage). I think it would make it worse.

“If anyone brought a gun to class, I’d be scared out of my mind, regardless if they are trying to stop someone who is shooting someone or not,” she said.

The Brady Campaign was founded after the attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan and named after his former press secretary, Jim Brady, who was shot in the head and permanently disabled.

Interesting Rebuttal

There is a disconnect between this girls logic and reality. How will she know if someone has a concealed gun in class? The criminal certainly will not divulge that info, so she could already be sitting in class surrounded by guns. She wants to prohibit LAWFUL concealed carry, but how does she propose to stop unlawful concealed carry? Is she willing to pay to put metal detectors at the door of each building, or each classroom? How does she expect to stop criminals from attacking people that are walking between buildings on the campus? Does she expect the school to provide an armed guard for every student when they move from one class to another?

I would say that this girl is already out of her mind, but she isn't scared yet because she has not considered reality. This is a perfect example of that old proverb, Ignorance is Bliss. She is ignorant of the danger around her, and thinks that there is more danger from law abiding gun carriers than from criminal gun carriers. As long as she doesn't know about the criminals carrying guns, she is happy. She can not conceive that criminals will carry guns without permission, while law abiding people will disarm and become defenseless due to rules, regulations and laws.

I run into this terrible logic just about every time I debate with the anti's on this subject. After their emotionally derived logic is systematically torn down, they usually run away or start making snide comments. There have been a few anti's that came around to at least respecting our rights and personal responsibility. The really cool ones conquer their fear by taking a class.

When I get into a debate with an anti-gun person, or anti- responsible citizen's carrying guns... I can usually put their "fear" of knowing people like myself carry by asking them why they are not scared about a Police officer walking down the street carrying his pistol. Or the police officer eating in the same restaurant. 50% of the time they stumble before coming up with a lame excuse, and the other 50% shut up and eat their cake. Either way I educate them that a responsible citizen with a COL or CCW, 9 times out of 10 have more experience with firearms than a cop, so they should be more worried that a cop can hit his target accurately than a responsible citizen carrying a concealed pistol.

 

[jillio]

Of course you are ignoring the post. Typical.:roll:

Let me ask you, jiro...exactly what do you know about the shooting at Columbine? How many details do you have in your knowlege base? Are you aware of the TAG reports regarding this incident? Are you aware of any of the forensic findings regarding Columbine? Just exactly how in depth is your awareness of this incident? Do you know anything more than the fact that a shooting occurred? Let me offer you a challenge. Inform yourself regarding the details. Inform yourself regarding the forensic information available. And then tell us all exactly how a teacher being armed would have lessened this occurrance. In reply, I will show you unequivocally, how proactive action would have, indeed, prevented this occurrance.

Then, let's do the same thing with the Westside Jr. High shooting in Arkansas. And we'll move on to the Virginia Tech shooting, since that seems to be a favorite of yours.

While we're at it, we'll review the forensic reccommendations for prevention of school shooting based on these and other incidents, and I will give you the opportunity to show all on this forum exactly where the recommendation for prevention of future occurrances contains the recommendation that teachers go armed.

When you can intelligently discuss the facts of these cases, as these are the very cases on which you are basing your support of teachers being armed, we will resume this discussion. You are so certain of the correctness of your position, then, please, by all means, take the opportunity to apply your assertions to these cases.

 

[jillio]

ignoring your post for now.... I'll respond to it once you come up with anything to back up your concern. I'll give you a simple math. Armed Students since August 2006.... NOT ONE INCIDENT of accidental/panicked shooting! Arming teachers will be the same.

It's such a nice beautiful day. Gonna enjoy it. Meanwhile - for your homework... read SCCC - Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Mind you - they are not affiliated with NRA, a political party, or any other organization. They're comprised of students, faculty, teachers, and citizens.



FACTS (extracted from its site):
1. Every day millions of licensed Americans legally carry concealed handguns in movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, banks, churches, etc.
2. Numerous studies show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.
3. Campus "gun free zones" may make some people feel safer, but as recent events demonstrate, feeling safe is not the same as being safe.

:topic:

 

[Jiro]

In reply, I will show you unequivocally, how proactive action would have, indeed, prevented this occurrance.

and I'm sure they've thought of it already. You're not the only one. Too bad it didn't work. School shootings continued years after years after years for 10+ years.

and no it wasn't off-topic. It's to prove you the fear of guns are irrational. so yea gonna have to decline your silly challenge. You first.

 

[jillio]

and I'm sure they've thought of it already. You're not the only one. Too bad it didn't work. School shootings continued years after years after years for 10+ years.

and no it wasn't off-topic. It's to prove you the fear of guns are irrational. so yea gonna have to decline your silly challenge. You first.

As I thought. You truly have no knowlege of the details of any of the school shootings, no knowlege of the forensic evidence, and no ability to apply your claims to real life situations. In other words, you are talking out of your rear end.:roll:

 

[Wokamuka]

and how do you propose doing that for millions of students and schools with a very limited budget? Why bother doing that if school shooting is 1% - a rare occurence? Another example of your FAILED management skill.

Talk about a "FAILED management skill": a very limited budget for schools and - you think it's best to keep it that way and have everyone pack heat?

Nevermind, that the ante is now upped and, with the knowledge that others may have guns, greater measures woud be considered.

 

[Jiro]

Talk about a "FAILED management skill": a very limited budget for schools and - you think it's best to keep it that way and have everyone pack heat?

Nevermind, that the ante is now upped and, with the knowledge that others may have guns, greater measures woud be considered.

I didn't say everybody should pack one. And things are not going to get any better immediately even if you boost the education budget by 500% today. This removal of school gun ban is only temporary and serves as extra deterrant to school massacre. TEMPORARY. I don't know what's worse for already limited-budgets... installing metal detectors + fences and hiring armed security guards or... allowing 1 or 2 armed teachers per school.

 

[Reba]

They aren't mutually exclusive, except that the proactive solutions negate the need for a retroactive solution.

Only in a perfect world.

No proactive plan is 100 percent perfect.

Also, there are occasions when outsiders attack schools. Not all shootings are done by that school's students.

 

[Wokamuka]

I didn't say everybody should pack one. And things are not going to get any better immediately even if you boost the education budget by 500% today. This removal of school gun ban is only temporary and serves as extra deterrant to school massacre. TEMPORARY. I don't know what's worse for already limited-budgets... installing metal detectors + fences and hiring armed security guards or... allowing 1 or 2 armed teachers per school.

The plan approved by the school district does not restrict it to two teachers. The plan lets every teacher be armed.

 

[shel90]

Interesting thread...

I guess I am lucky to be working at a Deaf school in an upper class neighborhood but then again, last May, we had a lockdown cuz there was a gunman on the loose after shooting two people near the Mall.

I wouldnt be comfortable bringing a gun with me to work cuz it would be accessible to my students. The chances of accidential shooting are higher than a gunman coming into my classroom shooting all of us. I dont think I could live with myself if a student got shot by accident by my gun.

I dont agree with this...leave it to the cops and armed security guards to handle the gun issues.

 

[jillio]

Only in a perfect world.

No proactive plan is 100 percent perfect.

Also, there are occasions when outsiders attack schools. Not all shootings are done by that school's students.

No, it isn't. However, with the chance at already less than 1%, a proactive solution would reduce an already miniscule chance. Likewise, it has been shown, in all of the school shootings over the last 10 years that had action been taken proactively on the information available, chances are that the shootings would have been prevented. All you have to do is check the 3 cases I mentioned earlier. In the Columbine shootings alone, one perpetrator had been exhibiting 11 of 12 behaviors known to place an individual at risk for mass murder, and the other had been exhibiting 10 of 12 behaviors. These behaviors had been evident for well over a year. And that is just one piece of information that was available to school officials. There were, in all cases, numerous warning signs that were ignored. Had those warning signs not been ignored, and the individuals dealt with appropriately, they would not have been in a position to commit the shootings.

And that is why, across the nation, we have a locked door policy in schools. To prevent attacks from an outsider.

There are also cases where a student waits outside and shoots, as in the Arkansas case where the student went in, rang a fire alarm, and then he and a partner started shooting when the students were ushered outside. Teachers could not tell where exactly the shots were coming from, as the 2 shooters were concealed in the woods, so an armed teacher would have been useless. These shooters were 11 and 13 years old, and got their arsenal of weapons from their homes, and their grandparent's homes. Likewise, there were numnerous warning signs that these children were disturbed...the warning signs were ignored.

Until we start dealing with the reason these shootings happen, instead of ignoring them, they will continue. Until we stop shunting these disturbed children aside instead of addressing their needs, situations like this will continue. Until we stop taking the easy way out by turning our head and refusing to look at the problem, these situations will continue.

 

[Reba]

...And that is why, across the nation, we have a locked door policy in schools. To prevent attacks from an outsider....

It is not a national policy.

It is not a policy that is enforced or hard to circumvent.

It cannot prevent attacks from a determined armed outsider unless the doors and windows are built like bank vaults.