Melting Pot--The Expanding Languages: Cultures and Barriers

[Brian]

I thought Indians in the old days were mute and didn't speak at all.

I've always assumed they danced, used stones/rocks, fire and sign languages to communicate with fellow Indians and enemies? Am I wrong?

I feel somewhat embarrassed for not knowing much about the Indians though I have some Cherokee blood in me.

 

[Banjo]

I thought Indians in the old days were mute and didn't speak at all.

I've always assumed they danced, used stones/rocks, fire and sign languages to communicate with fellow Indians and enemies? Am I wrong?

I feel somewhat embarrassed for not knowing much about the Indians though I have some Cherokee blood in me.

No, some tribal natives did speak a language of their own.

 

[Brian]

No, some tribal natives did speak a language of their own.

That is interesting. Are languages of such being used by Indians nowadays?

 

[Banjo]

That is interesting. Are languages of such being used by Indians nowadays?

Hmm, I doubt any of them continue to use it on a daily basis.

 

[Reba]

Interesting:

According to Prentice Robinson, in his Easy to Use Cherokee Dictionary;

"The Cherokee language is a branch of the Iroquoian language, as are several other languages. Included in these are the Mohawk, Oneida, Seneca, Cayuga and the one added later the Tuscaroar. To [his] knowledge, none of these tribes can converse with each other in their native tongue. There are related words that are similar in root base. "
http://public.csusm.edu/raven/cherokee.dir/cher1.html

 

[gnarlydorkette]

Yes, Native American tribes lived in North America first. However, they lived as independent tribal groups, not as one organized political nation. Each tribe had its own language and culture. They were not united with a common language and goal. Some of them were at war with each other.

And so are we. We are at war against others for religions, politics, and race.


And I am surprised nobody brings up a better term to describe America-- a salad. Everybody is mingling together with their own cultural identidy but they make the whole meal yummy. That is waht America is-- everybody is different, religion, race, language, culture, etc and they all stand together to serve themselves as America. Nobody is "melting"-- I don't know Jewish or Muslism's background so how could I be "melted" with them? But of course when people think a "melting pot" they usually mean NON-AMERICAN, NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS to MELT INTO THE AMERICAN IDEAL. I disagree with this term. I think it is highly offensive. Nobody is melting into my background as a Finnish deaf girl. I am not melting into an American hearing machostic man. The term of "melting pot" is getting old. It is like saying "negro" for the African-American. It is outdated.

 

[gnarlydorkette]

WHAT does it take to be an American???

I had a very good discussion with my fiance about this thread--
He asked "How does one applies the 'American' term to deaf culture?"
I said--
"I don't think most Deaf are Americans."

Lemme explain my stance:
WHAT DOES it MEAN TO BE AN AMERICAN?
For me-- it means you are living and breathing the American ideal-- you know the pop culture, you know the government, you know your rights, you know the common language and forth on.

How does it apply to the Deaf culture?
A high precentage of Deaf didn't vote. A good precentage of them don't have a good grasp on English. Millions of deaf don't know the pop culture-- which mean the singers, the frevor over boy bands and whatnot... we are lost out on that because of a language barrier.

To answer the question "How does one applies the 'American' term to deaf culture?"
I would presume based on your arguments that according to Reba: Deaf are not Americans because we don't know English well enough or prehaps NONE.

And based on my arguments and thoughts that haven't been posted or discussed-- Some Deaf are not Americans because they are not using their rights due to their lack of knowledge what they are ALLOWED to have-- (thus they are like immigrants-- e.g. Portuguese immigrant that have NO rights to vote, no knowledge how one should be attempted in courts and more), not know the American ideal *husband: breadwinner while wife: stays home and pops out three kids and kids are active in their school sports and clubs, ah the perfect nuclear family!*, not know the general idea of pop culture and what makes America American.

So maybe the melting pot is all about filtering out those "un-American" by having several criterias: one must accept and speak English, one must acquire some ideas of the pop culture (who is hot, who is not), one must know a general history of America, one must particpate in the American Government via voting, protesting, and whatnot...

I mean... I think the voting is the main one that makes people AMERICAN. Once an immigrant is naturalized to be an American, THEY CAN VOTE. The right to VOTE is the most outstanding trait that set America different from MANY other countries. It is OUR historical reputation that we are the "first" that provides VOTING for everybody ( well, EVENTUALLY... or at least since 1920)

So prehaps it is not the English language itself that melts everybody into one big pot...? But the privellege to VOTE.
If the former one is prevailed, then it is a sad sad sad day for Deaf "unAmericans".

[EDITED: I also discussed that there are some "degrees" of Americans... some may be first-generation Americans and have some of their nationality lingering but nonetheless they are dubbed "Americans"... some are not Americans because they refrain from speaking English, partake in the voting process, or not attempting to update self with who is the hot pop singer-- or whatnot *not because of language barrier but rather a political statement to keep one's true identity or many more reasons that an indiviual may decide to choose* So don't bash me for not saying that ALL DEAF ARE NOT AMERICANS but rather some *deaf or HEARING* are Americans by being qualified for the "Ideal American" while others have varying degrees of "American" attributions. Hope I have disclaimed myself on all grounds.]

 

[kuifje75]

Reba, remember that the people in Pennsylvania and other states do speak German as well. Of course, they know English too. I read once that they had votes on which to adopt as an official language for the US, and German came in second place. Can you imagine if German came in first place, then we all would be speaking in German here instead of English?

Anyway, as for the melting pot ideals, I think it is full of bullocks. Yes, that's a British term, but who cares. Are we trying to become like Japan, to become a homogenised society where everyone thinks the same, speaks the same, wear the same, etc...? America is a diverse country, and we should cherish that. It will not hurt you guys to learn a second language, like many European children do in their grade 3 to 12 classes. Heck, Switzerland has four official languages, and some Swiss know 2 or 3 languages fluently. It never threatened the harmony of their neutral country. Same goes for Belgium who speaks French and Flemish. In America, the majority speaks English, but it WILL change over the time. I dont think that they should give up their language, but I do think that they should learn our language and that it would not hurt others to learn their language as well.

 

[Taylor]

gnarlydorkette,
Great post about culture in America and it makes a lot of sense. Of course we would consider deaf Americans as Americans, but that is a great twist that was added...something to think about.

That is interesting. Are languages of such being used by Indians nowadays?

Brian,
Yes, they are. Most will speak english as the languages are dying (and quickly). My tribe uses the language a lot, and they also offer classes for the language (many classes can be taken on-line). There are currently about 10,000 members using it regularly and it is required in order to work for their goverment.

For the hearing folks, here is what the language sounds like:
Days Of The Week
Months Of The Year
Numbers

The Lords Prayer
I've copied the text of The Lords Prayer. I doubt anyone here has the font installed on their computer to read it so I've created it as an image:

 

[XBGMER]

Do You Really Know Who Is Mexican??

[Banjo mentioned "Lately, I have noticed that more and more people are complaining of the Spanish language taking over several places in the south of the USA due to the immigrants from Mexico."]I am anti- spanish speaking language and anti-bilingual. I don't ever want that english tranform to Spanish in future events. I agree 100% with what Banjo said. I don't ever want my childern of next genernations learn the spanish or bilingual.

[tekkmortal spoke "I have noticed that there are few associates in my Wal-Mart store don't speak English. I think they speak Vietnamese. There are more Americans don't speak English at all now than before. I have noticed in some states like Florida and Texas are putting up bilingual signs in English and Spanish."] tekkmortal, you are damn right about wal mart hired foreigers who work for the company, they speaking in various language and cateoage of group on the table while breaktime..

[Reba said "I know that many Spanish-speaking people consider themselves "white".] Reba, in common, that I've heard it many times. You are right saying about most spanish-speaking people wanted to pass for the white ethic as asscoate with the europe of people. but ((yawn))... they are still these non-white people period.

[Edit]: Here in California, Texas, Ariz, Florida on and on list a lot of the light-skinned Mestizos can pass for white and many get treated as white. I know a lot of mestizo enemies who hate full blooded indian-looking Mexicans, but do you guys really know who is Mexican and who isn't??

That's the way genes work among many Mexicans who look white, but have a mother, father, sister or grandparent's who are original brown indian-spairds as like origin of india. And the funny thing as long as you LOOK white, you are very much accepted by white racists.

READ ME!!!

 

[Nesmuth]

dFingerspelling isn't ASL. That is why ASL isn't a fully developed language yet and never will be because deaf people still has to fingerspell many, many words and most hearing people don't understand fingerspelling to begin with.

Society sees fingerspelling as ASL. The grantmakers sees it that way. The grantmakers are hardheads they tend to send money to "hearing impaired" not "Deaf". The grantmakers sees fingerspelling as ASL so they will send money to fingerspelling if it is labeled as "ASL". We've seen this with Mattell Toys already. We're going to see it with other compaines and grantmakers.

Why is this happening? Poor education on deafness and culture.

How do we change this? You decide on the path.

Until then, fingerspelling is "ASL"

 

[Reba]

...And I am surprised nobody brings up a better term to describe America-- a salad.

I am familiar with the term "salad" for describing America. I prefer a melting pot because all the various people become one America. The people in a salad bowl never become fully united as one nationality. A melting pot is full of "Americans". A salad bowl has "African-Americans", "German-Americans", "Italian-Americans", "Chinese-Americans", etc.

A melting pot country doesn't mean people totally give up their ethnic "flavors". The flavor is still there to season the pot. But the basic "soup" in the pot is "American". The flavors are blended.

In a salad bowl country each ingredient stays separate. There is no blending, no overall substance.

But of course when people think a "melting pot" they usually mean NON-AMERICAN, NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS to MELT INTO THE AMERICAN IDEAL. I disagree with this term.

What is wrong with the term "melting pot"? If people move to America to live and make their homes, why shouldn't they learn the American English language? If you move to France, you learn French. If you move to Germany, you learn German. Why shouldn't people use English in America? How can a country be unified if it becomes a Tower of Babel with a hundred different languages?

I think it is highly offensive. Nobody is melting into my background as a Finnish deaf girl.

If they live in Finland they would learn the language and customs of Finland, right? How is that offensive? If people want to keep their original language, customs, and way of life, why do they move to America?

I am not melting into an American hearing machostic man.

Huh? What does "machostic" have to do with American language and culture?

 

[Reba]

...WHAT DOES it MEAN TO BE AN AMERICAN?
For me-- it means you are living and breathing the American ideal-- you know the pop culture, you know the government, you know your rights, you know the common language and forth on.

How does it apply to the Deaf culture?
A high precentage of Deaf didn't vote.

Sadly, a high percentage of Hearing didn't vote either. So I guess American Deaf and Hearing have that in common.

A good precentage of them don't have a good grasp on English.

But they do use the English that they can. They don't use Spanish or French. And they sign American Sign Language, or Signed Exact English, or a combination such as CASE (Conceptually Accurate Signed English); note, they are American or English signs, not German or Chinese.

Millions of deaf don't know the pop culture-- which mean the singers, the frevor over boy bands and whatnot... we are lost out on that because of a language barrier.

Well, I guess that leaves me out, too. I am hearing and I don't know the pop culture singers or actors either. In fact, many of my Deaf friends know more about current singers, TV programs, and movies than I do.

To answer the question "How does one applies the 'American' term to deaf culture?"
I would presume based on your arguments that according to Reba: Deaf are not Americans because we don't know English well enough or prehaps NONE.

I am talking about people who move to America as immigrants. If you were born in America you are an American. You didn't make that choice. Adults who move to the United States from another country have made a choice to live and work here. With that choice goes the responsibility of learning the ways of their new home.

...Some Deaf are not Americans because they are not using their rights due to their lack of knowledge what they are ALLOWED to have...

Yes, they are Americans. There are many hearing Americans that don't know or use their rights, also.

...thus they are like immigrants-- e.g. Portuguese immigrant that have NO rights to vote, no knowledge how one should be attempted in courts and more...

Deaf Americans do have the right to vote; an immigrant does not. Some Deaf and hearing Americans do not know all their legal rights, but that doesn't mean they are not equally American.

not know the American ideal *husband: breadwinner while wife: stays home and pops out three kids and kids are active in their school sports and clubs, ah the perfect nuclear family!*, not know the general idea of pop culture and what makes America American.

I don't understand your point. It sounds like you resent the concept of a "nuclear" family. Are you saying that Deaf culture does not know what a nuclear family is?

So maybe the melting pot is all about filtering out those "un-American" by having several criterias: one must accept and speak English, one must acquire some ideas of the pop culture (who is hot, who is not), one must know a general history of America, one must particpate in the American Government via voting, protesting, and whatnot...

Use English, yes. Pop culture, that is your idea, not mine. Know American history, of course, that is important. Participate in American government, yes, that is important if you want power in your life.

I mean... I think the voting is the main one that makes people AMERICAN.

And if they want to make informed decisions about their vote, they need to be able to read American newspapers and magazines, study American history books, watch American TV news, search American web sites for news, etc.

 

[Reba]

Reba, remember that the people in Pennsylvania and other states do speak German as well. Of course, they know English too.

Yes, bilingualism is great. The point is, they do use English. There is nothing wrong with knowing other languages, too. In fact, the more languages the better. But the primary language for America is English.

I read once that they had votes on which to adopt as an official language for the US, and German came in second place. Can you imagine if German came in first place, then we all would be speaking in German here instead of English?

If that vote had passed a couple hundred years ago, then fine, that would have been the language. Then I would expect all the immigrants to USA would have to learn American German.

It will not hurt you guys to learn a second language, like many European children do in their grade 3 to 12 classes.

Like I said above, I support multilingualism. That is, in addition to American English, not in place of it.

Heck, Switzerland has four official languages, and some Swiss know 2 or 3 languages fluently. It never threatened the harmony of their neutral country. Same goes for Belgium who speaks French and Flemish.

America is not Switzerland or Belgium. America is a country of people from hundreds of diverse national origins. We must have some commonality to unify us. Switzerland and Belgium are geographically smaller than the United States, and more physically accessible from other countries' borders, whereas the USA only has two widely separated foreign borders.

 

[Reba]

Reba...You are right saying about most spanish-speaking people wanted to pass for the white ethic as asscoate with the europe of people. but ((yawn))... they are still these non-white people period.

I want to be clearly understood: I did not say "spanish-speaking people wanted to pass for the white." Many Spanish-speaking people are white, and that is why they want to be called white. The people living in Spain, which is in Europe, are white, or if you want to get technical, "Caucasian." I don't want to make this a racial discussion because I don't believe that is the point. I only used that reference as a reply to another person's post. Americans are every color combination under the sun, and I have no problem with that.

 

[MissSeua]

I am familiar with the term "salad" for describing America. I prefer a melting pot because all the various people become one America. The people in a salad bowl never become fully united as one nationality. A melting pot is full of "Americans". A salad bowl has "African-Americans", "German-Americans", "Italian-Americans", "Chinese-Americans", etc.

A melting pot country doesn't mean people totally give up their ethnic "flavors". The flavor is still there to season the pot. But the basic "soup" in the pot is "American". The flavors are blended.

In a salad bowl country each ingredient stays separate. There is no blending, no overall substance.

I want to tell that my family is immigrant from Laos, Southeast Asia. We live here in America for almost 25 years. We normally speak/ write English. In home, we speak Lao or Thai. As for me, I always use ASL. We are identifted as Laotian-American. However, we are in America and that means we're Americans. It is kind of hard to explain, isn't it? I hope I am not rude. I understand why you are concenrned about "the salad".

And also, I had seen some American Indian people speak or sign in their languages. I have Cherokee (sp?) Indian Sign Language book. Same thing to Alaskan Native, they use their languages.

 

[Cheri]

I don't understand why there are some Spanish language in United States, I thought you have to pass an exam to learn American way included English also. I hate the confusing of both English and Spanish all over the place. It's even harder on Police who have to wait to get a translator. It's like the Germany people comes to America and learn English why cannot the Spanish people learn our language too?

Same as going to Mexico we have to learn their language to communicate with them right? Well, I just think United States should stick with English only instead of adding Spanish Language all over the place.

 

[DreamSlayer]

What a wierd topic, and to be honest, I am a little surpirzed by the responses.
The fact that most Americans are decendants of immigrants has been discussed.
What if you were born into a country that speaks one language, and yet you speak a different one?
ASL and spoken english are two different languages, and yet you make a comment like:
I hate the confusing of both English and Spanish all over the place. It's even harder on Police who have to wait to get a translator
I'm hearing. The student I assist is Deaf, in an all hearing school. I sign, I try anyway. The hearing school makes accomodations, and so does the student.
I understand that ASL is "American", but I see it every day. A student who simply doesn't "Speak" the same language as the rest of the students.
Then there is brail. It's in english, but I can't read it. It's not in a form of english that the majority can read.
And for the Deaf and Blind?
It was interesting that one comment suggested that the Deaf aren't really American...
(maybe I don't have a clue, and I don't mean to be offensive, I just don't see the differnece)
Communication barrier, right. That's what this thread was about?

Culture makes you American?
Voting makes you American?

Salad? Melting Pot? Soup? Symantics?

Try stepping outside your country for a second and figure out what the rest of the world sees. A country who values democracy, freedom, liberty, money, and using big weapons to intimidate the rest of us.

Je suis Canadien. People come here because of what we value, not because we have a rich culture, not because we have TWO official languages, not because Tim Hortons makes really good donuts. People come here for free health care. So, because they don't speak the same language as me... they are not entiled to the same quality of life as I am? That's just selfish.

 

[Cheri]

What if you were born into a country that speaks one language, and yet you speak a different one?
ASL and spoken english are two different languages, and yet you make a comment like:
I hate the confusing of both English and Spanish all over the place. It's even harder on Police who have to wait to get a translator

You misunderstood my post Did I say anything about 'deaf' , no I did not, I am saying as a General American people in America. I am talking about signs all over the place in spanish and directions in packages of items you buy at the store, and etc.


I have watched cops on TV and I can see how frustrate they can be when they cannot communicate with Spanish people. With the deaf they can do pen and paper communicate if cannot read lips.

 

[DreamSlayer]

The comment about the barrier between the Deaf and America was taken from gnarleydorkette.

However, I have seen how frustrated individuals can become with Pen and Paper, especially in a situation that needs to be dealt with quickly. or if you don't have a pen that works.

As for signs everywhere, I can understand being frustrated if they are only in Spanish, but don't they have english also? I have brail on my drive through ATM machines.... which worries me, because I don't think blind people should be driving, however there are also words and numbers for me to understand.

In a society where communication is important, having the same language helps things run smoothly and quickly, doesn't matter if it's France, America, or Japan.
But to become annoyed with the effort put forth by your county to include people who speak a different language; or to be annoyed that people who speak another language want to be a part of your country but have serious difficulty speaking the language; or to deny the same quality of life you enjoy to others just because of language..... that just confuses me.