Lies about CI's

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GrendelQ said:
Ah, well, because you insist on attacking -- personally attacking, as you've done here with my child, with her learning, her language, with my knowledge -- anyone who doesn't take their child through the same rose-strewn path your son took. I think what you've done with your son is amazing, it's wonderful, and just as I love reading good things from those on this thread who seem happy and well-adjusted, like HHIssues and even PFH :), it warms my heart to know that your young deaf son is happy and successful. And it shows that there are many paths to that happiness. Why do you feel the need to tear down any path that isn't of your making? What is it about the fact that I value both ASL AND English that sticks in your craw so much?
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Jealousy?
 
kokonut said:
Natural ability? I'd have to disagree on that aspect. It takes effort and work to develop that skill just as it takes effort and work to become a proficient pianist or a singer.
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But two people putting in the the same amount of work and effort will not necessarily achieve the same proficiency. In fact if person A has a natural affinity for something and person B does not, person B will (most likely) never achieve the same level of proficiency no matter how hard they work, and it's entirely possible that they will never be proficient. It's the same with deaf people learning to speak: not everybody can do it, and certainly not with the same proficiency.

kokonut said:
Secondly, I said "intelligible" speech, not about being a skilled speaker which an altogether a different thing here. If a deaf person with intelligible speech want to progress to become a skilled speaker then that's more work to be done.
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I would consider someone capable of producing intelligible speech (meaning readily understood by someone who doesn't know them) to be a skilled speaker in a relative sense. But you apparently intended something different.
 
But two people putting in the the same amount of work and effort will not necessarily achieve the same proficiency. In fact if person A has a natural affinity for something and person B does not, person B will (most likely) never achieve the same level of proficiency no matter how hard they work, and it's entirely possible that they will never be proficient. It's the same with deaf people learning to speak: not everybody can do it, and certainly not with the same proficiency.
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Some will require more work than others but that doesn't mean one cannot attain intelligible speech. Proficiency is what you make of it to the point of either being a really skilled speaker or not. Exactly what is a "skilled speaker"? I'd say one who has no problem speaking and has a preference to speaking/listening, and that his/her speech is highly intelligible.


I would consider someone capable of producing intelligible speech (meaning readily understood by someone who doesn't know them) to be a skilled speaker in a relative sense. But you apparently intended something different.
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The quality of intelligible speech varies. That is, comprehensible speech. To barely understand what's being spoken is certainly different from an intelligible speech that's clearly enunciated and understood by all. That's what I'm getting at.
 
kokonut said:
Some will require more work than others but that doesn't mean one cannot attain intelligible speech. Proficiency is what you make of it to the point of either being a really skilled speaker or not. Exactly what is a "skilled speaker"? I'd say one who has no problem speaking and has a preference to speaking/listening, and that his/her speech is highly intelligible.



The quality of intelligible speech varies. That is, comprehensible speech. To barely understand what's being spoken is certainly different from an intelligible speech that's clearly enunciated and understood by all. That's what I'm getting at.
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That is an extremely incorrect statement. Many people are unable to attain intelligible speech.
 
Mountain Man said:
As my dad always says, "There are two sides to every story." :D

For what it's worth, I know you didn't turn on FJ simply because her child was implanted. I'm aware there was more to it.
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Also, FJ definitely didn't start out ASL because of Jillio. She had her own reasons why, but her reasons seem the same (personally, I would find that remark rick made as an insult like I'm some kind of follower) . It seem to me that she choose ASL because she didn't want her daughter to fall behind.
 
Has anyone met a deaf person who is an ASL and spoken English user who supports the idea of not letting deaf children having exposure to ASL or the Deaf community?

The only deaf people I have met who supports that idea are the ones who never learned ASL or never went to a Deaf community event.
 
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shel90 said:
Has anyone met a deaf person who is an ASL and spoken English user who supports the idea of not letting deaf children having exposure to ASL or the Deaf community?
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I don't know any deaf person who would support not letting children have exposure to ASL or the deaf community. Every deaf person I know considers himself or herself a member of the deaf community.
 
Mountain Man said:
But two people putting in the the same amount of work and effort will not necessarily achieve the same proficiency. In fact if person A has a natural affinity for something and person B does not, person B will (most likely) never achieve the same level of proficiency no matter how hard they work, and it's entirely possible that they will never be proficient. It's the same with deaf people learning to speak: not everybody can do it, and certainly not with the same proficiency.


This is so true. And this is something that many, many professionals fail to either realize or at least to point out, especially to parents. Some deaf people have worked SO hard, doing everything they possibly can do to learn how to use speech...and still fail. A deaf person either "has it" or not. This is really frustrating for me because I'm the kind of person who thinks in black and white terms when it comes to learning...I want to believe that if you put your heart into something, you will succeed. But when it comes to speech, it comes down to the fact that some people has the "wiring" and others don't. This is also true for auditory comprehension.

I've heard this so many times through my graduate studies in deaf education, reading countless journals and books, etc. But it wasn't until an audiologist who is deaf himself and has CIs on both sides, said this out loud during his presentation about hearing loss. It hit me what he was saying.

Not all of us are wired to be able to use and understand speech. It doesn't matter how hard we try. If we don't have the wires, it's not going to happen.

So my questions are flowing now. How do we know? Where do we draw the line, and say, "Ok, should we keep trying? Or have we reached the plateau?" The tricky part is...can we do it within the small window of time when language is most able to be acquired naturally and easily? When do we stop and try a different avenue?
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GrendelQ said:
1. In direct contradiction to this, you have just spent a bit of time arguing that a deaf child CAN pick up ASL incidentally and peripherally. Now you say a deaf child can't pick up a language in this way? Or are you specifying CI children as being unable to do so?

2. You may know some who don't, as do I. But I also know many deaf children with CIs who DO pick up spoken language incidentally and peripherally, including my child.
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Including my child as well.
 
GrendelQ said:
Ah, well, because you insist on attacking -- personally attacking, as you've done here with my child, with her learning, her language, with my knowledge -- anyone who doesn't take their child through the same rose-strewn path your son took. I think what you've done with your son is amazing, it's wonderful, and just as I love reading good things from those on this thread who seem happy and well-adjusted, like HHIssues and even PFH :), it warms my heart to know that your young deaf son is happy and successful. And it shows that there are many paths to that happiness. Why do you feel the need to tear down any path that isn't of your making? What is it about the fact that I value both ASL AND English that sticks in your craw so much?
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That is a question many of us have asked.

If you truly support people who are deaf, then you celebrate their success regardless of the method. I have raised a happy, well adjusted deaf adult. If someone else is also a happy, well adjusted deaf adult but was raised differently, it does not detract from her accomplishments but rather they both add to the deaf community.

I think Kokonut is partially right, there is some jealousy there and also some insecurity and questioning of the decisions that were made years ago.

Bottom line, she does not matter as she plays no role in my child's life and nothing that she says in her daily rants can change the fact that my wife and I, with much credit to my wife, raised her to be the person she is today. Remember that, when you think about your daughter as she is what matters most.
Rick
 
kokonut said:
What GrendelQ has done is admirable is all I can say considering her circumstances.
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I agree and I thank both her and FJ and others such as Cloggy too for opening up my eyes to the fact that cochlear implants and ASL can go hand and hand and give our kids even more possibilities.
Rick
 
Just because it's natural that we are visual learners (which should be obvious in the first place) does NOT mean it's wrong for a deaf child to have HAs/CIs and try to use them to their full potential. Just like how it's natural for the legally blind to listen for everything, doesn't make it wrong for them to use some device that provides visual access.
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Exactly....the full toolbox approach. It is very hard to tell which tools will benifit which kids.

But spoken language IS accessible to many deaf kids. That is where we disagree
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Yes, but 100%? And at a sophiscated language level? Kids with CIs are doing well, and some of them have really good spoken language abilty......but a) there were deaf kids with HAs who had spoken language accessible to them in the past. There's still a lot of teens and kids with severe-profound losses who can access spoken language (into mild hoh levels) with hearing aids. and b) it remains to be seen whether or not they will develop pretty much on par with hearing kids spoken language. Even hoh kids still may deal with spoken language delays!



jillo, not to attack you or anything, but the cooking class/ASL enrichment sounds a lot like a) the typical toddler vocabululary and syntax intervention that would go on even in a hearing (non special needs) preschool) Little kids are still learning vocab and syntax and b) It sounds more like ...well one of my best friends attended a French-English bilingal program as a kid. Early on, kids whose first language was English might get "vocab and syntax" lessons en Francais.
This sounds a lot like what Li Li is doing....which is AWESOME!!! Maybe, this will be a viable route to turn a bi bi program, into a true bilingal program.....one where dhh kids can become fluent in ASL AND spoken language.
Oh, and I do agree with you re: the fourth grade milestone. It does seem that MANY oral kids do well in the early grades, but then around fourth grade things get a lot harder, and kids start struggling.
 
rick48 said:
I agree and I thank both her and FJ and others such as Cloggy too for opening up my eyes to the fact that cochlear implants and ASL can go hand and hand and give our kids even more possibilities.
Rick
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These people learned from deaf people themselves. Why didn't you? Do you ignored deaf people and only listen to hearing people that ASL and CI can go hand in hand?
 
o my questions are flowing now. How do we know? Where do we draw the line, and say, "Ok, should we keep trying? Or have we reached the plateau?" The tricky part is...can we do it within the small window of time when language is most able to be acquired naturally and easily? When do we stop and try a different avenue?
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I do think part of the improvement in oral sucesses is that nowadays teachers and professionals at the Name Oral Schools/Programs may be more open to suggesting ASL earlier.
But the thing is, although we have seen a lot of improvement, as well as superstars who really don't need a lot of accomondations, there are still many kids who are struggling as well as kids who aren't exactly on par with their spoken language. Yes, it's different from the old days in that very few kids can't pick up at least survival speech. But just b/c a kid can aquire spoken language easier then in the past, it doesn't mean that they're gonna be a minimal accomondations superstar. Or going to be a superstar in general. The thinking has been that hoh (and many CI kids are pretty much hoh) don't really "need" Deaf stuff. (eg schools, programs...they just need the Hearing World) All I will say to that, is that I wish those professionals could have listened in on me and my friend Ethan talking today. We both grew up hoh, mainstreamed and all that...and both experianced major downsides from that!

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But I also know many deaf children with CIs who DO pick up spoken language incidentally and peripherally, including my child.
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Exactly. They no longer need hyperintense instruction in speech b/c of that. Hoh kids can pick up spoken language incidently and without hyperintense instruction, as long as they have a base to build on.

Including my child as well.
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Oh really? Then how come you guys added a private speech therapist?
 
deafdyke said:
Oh really? Then how come you guys added a private speech therapist?
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I can't speak for Rick, and we don't have a private speech therapist, but Li doesn't pronounce every word exactly right. She's at a school for the deaf and her language models include deaf teachers and students with a range of oral skills. At this point, our focus is on developing her language. At some later point we may decide to have a speech therapist help her refine her articulation.

There's a difference between acquiring spoken language and refining speech / oral skills.

Some of her signs aren't as precise as they should be. We currently have an instructor working with her to refine her expressive ASL. This extra teaching doesn't mean either language is being forced on her.
 
deafskeptic said:
I'm also allergic to rubber as well. I had a pair of Doc Martens and I got hives on my feet from the rubber and one of them turned into a blister. I went to the ER room to get it treated and that's how I found out I have diabetes.
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Isn't latex and rubber the same thing? I thought latex is made of rubber.
 
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