L.A. riots: Good Samaritan remembers his scary truck-driver rescue

[Steinhauer]

you call that excessive force?

it's more like human rights abuse.

Isn't that what excessive force is? A human rights violation?

 

[Jiro]

In other words, excessive force is a problem around the globe? Usually by those abusing their positions of authority? Even in Nations where there are no racial barriers?

Is it possible that the problem isn't exactly racism? I mean, yeah, I am sure there are incidents where racism plays a factor - but don't you think the problem is a bit deeper and racism is just a straw man argument?

I would like to see research comparing reports of excessive force in high crime areas as opposed to areas with minimal crime.

I know what you're trying to do but unfortunately, it won't work.

These countries you speak of is a homogenous country and whatever the problem it has, it's not the same in America. And these countries are poor and notorious for human rights abuse. America isn't and our police officers shouldn't be clobbering our citizens like them.

As pointed out in PARC report, the racial injustice was very strong in LA which was why LAPD repeatedly and frequently illegally targeted/mistreated minorities. However, Pakistan did do same thing toward certain group of different religion and tribes.

 

[Jiro]

Isn't that what excessive force is? A human rights violation?

"excessive force" is more like police officers going a bit too far. human rights abuse is much more serious than excessive force.

 

[Steinhauer]

"excessive force" is more like police officers going a bit too far. human rights abuse is much more serious than excessive force.

Ok, tell me, what am I trying to do? More importantly, whatever it is you perceive me to be doing, why won't it work?

While answering that, could you list the qualifications of the two police chiefs as well as the mayor who came up with your linked study in regards to their academic ability to do unbiased research?

Also, by your claim, excessive force is not a human rights violation ....somehow the two are different?

Here is a wikipedia link to a research study I had to study while a freshman in College:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I would "think" this type of research would reveal real answers to the cause and effect of using excessive force rather than playing the race baiting game. Just my opinion.

 

[Jiro]

Ok, tell me, what am I trying to do? More importantly, whatever it is you perceive me to be doing, why won't it work?

in short - "I no see , hear no, speak no racial injustice."

While answering that, could you list the qualifications of the two police chiefs as well as the mayor who came up with your linked study in regards to their academic ability to do unbiased research?

why not look it up yourself?

Also, by your claim, excessive force is not a human rights violation ....somehow the two are different?

oh I guess you missed subtle joke. When "police brutality" or "excessive force" comes into your mind, you think a police officer going a little too far in the heat of moment. it's usually an isolated incident.

when it comes to human rights violation, it's a very serious and systematic abuses sanctioned by government typically from higher-ups.

China, Pakistan, UAE, and Iran are known for human rights violation for centuries and they don't care what you or Amnesty International or USA thinks. Instead of comparing America to these countries.... why not compare it to England? They do not clobber people around or shoot them. They can handle arresting people worse than Rodney King without resorting to beating. These police officers emphasize on crime prevention than crime control. The Christopher Commission's finding showed that the culture of LAPD emphasized on crime control which was why the cases of police brutality and racial injustice were widespread and systematic.

Because of this report, LAPD underwent massive organization structural changes. Same for NYPD.

Here is a wikipedia link to a research study I had to study while a freshman in College:

Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would "think" this type of research would reveal real answers to the cause and effect of using excessive force rather than playing the race baiting game. Just my opinion.

do you dispute Christopher Commission's finding?

 

[Jiro]

btw - Steinhauer, Stanford Prison Experiment is not really applicable in this case because both cases do not have most of similar parameters.

The Robbers Cave Experiment, Mob Mentality, and Bystander Effect would be more fitting for what was happening in LAPD and the community back in 90's.

SCIENTIST AT WORK: Ervin Staub; Studying the Pivotal Role of Bystanders - New York Times

Dr. Staub exemplifies a growing breed of activist research psychologists who are finding ways to apply the lessons of the laboratory in addressing social concerns. Most recently, in the wake of the beating of Rodney King by police officers in Los Angeles, the California agency that sets training standards for police officers throughout the state commissioned Dr. Staub to design a training program to encourage officers to intervene when their colleagues use too much force. Part of that program will be given to the police there next month in a statewide training course.

Details of his study is found here.

 

[Jiro]

In other words, excessive force is a problem around the globe? Usually by those abusing their positions of authority? Even in Nations where there are no racial barriers?

yes. I don't know what country has no racial barriers. can you name one?

Is it possible that the problem isn't exactly racism? I mean, yeah, I am sure there are incidents where racism plays a factor - but don't you think the problem is a bit deeper and racism is just a straw man argument?

well Christopher Commission is pretty much spot on. It did investigate deeper and further. I hope you read at least a good portion of it.

You'll see that it's not just racism. It's also a major failure in chain of command and lack of oversight. Because of that, the culture within LAPD was born and allowed to encourage racial bias, racial profiling, racial discrimination, gender discrimination, and sexual discrimination without facing legal repercussion or getting reprimanded from superiors.

but since you don't seem to agree with Christopher Commission's finding, then what possible reasons are there?

I would like to see research comparing reports of excessive force in high crime areas as opposed to areas with minimal crime.

well it's probably best to try to stop grasping for straws to deny the existence of racial injustice.

if you want, you can read the reports on police brutality in all major cities at Shielded from Justice: Overview (choose any city you want on the left side).

 

[Steinhauer]

in short - "I no see , hear no, speak no racial injustice."


why not look it up yourself?


oh I guess you missed subtle joke. When "police brutality" or "excessive force" comes into your mind, you think a police officer going a little too far in the heat of moment. it's usually an isolated incident.

when it comes to human rights violation, it's a very serious and systematic abuses sanctioned by government typically from higher-ups.

China, Pakistan, UAE, and Iran are known for human rights violation for centuries and they don't care what you or Amnesty International or USA thinks. Instead of comparing America to these countries.... why not compare it to England? They do not clobber people around or shoot them. They can handle arresting people worse than Rodney King without resorting to beating. These police officers emphasize on crime prevention than crime control. The Christopher Commission's finding showed that the culture of LAPD emphasized on crime control which was why the cases of police brutality and racial injustice were widespread and systematic.

Because of this report, LAPD underwent massive organization structural changes. Same for NYPD.


do you dispute Christopher Commission's finding?

Those are quite a few assumptions on your part. You should probably remind yourself that you are not a mind reader every once in a while.

I can clearly see how you have managed to side step the issue and point you were initially attempting to make. Since racism cannot be blamed for these "human rights" violations in other countries that have engaged in the same exact behaviour that you are accusing the LAPD of doing, it nullified your point.

I never said racism wasn't a factor, you keep attempting to put words in my mouth. I said it wasn't the root cause. It is also laughable that you still are attempting to claim I condone what the LAPD did in the Rodney King beating, even after I made it clear that I do not. I honestly think you have a hidden agenda. Don't make this personal.

 

[Jiro]

Those are quite a few assumptions on your part. You should probably remind yourself that you are not a mind reader every once in a while.

I don't need to read your mind because I don't believe mind reading is real. I can read between words and see what your ulterior motive is. You are, of course, free to correct me if I'm wrong. My analysis is obviously not infallible but it's been fairly accurate most of times.

I can clearly see how you have managed to side step the issue and point you were initially attempting to make. Since racism cannot be blamed for these "human rights" violations in other countries that have engaged in the same exact behaviour that you are accusing the LAPD of doing, it nullified your point.

You missed the entire point or maybe you didn't read rest of my posts yet. But I've never said racism cannot be blamed for human rights violation in other countries. I've already explained in good detail in Post #405-#407 especially about Pakistan.

I never said racism wasn't a factor, you keep attempting to put words in my mouth. I said it wasn't the root cause. It is also laughable that you still are attempting to claim I condone what the LAPD did in the Rodney King beating, even after I made it clear that I do not. I honestly think you have a hidden agenda. Don't make this personal.

no you did not say racism isn't a factor but I can see what you're trying to do. you are attempting to trivialize it as if it's a distraction for a "real reason" and then you say say - "no it's something else.... it's something deeper...." How conveniently vague it is. and nowhere in my post say anything about you condoning Rodney King's beatdown. You've already clarified your position on it so why would I still accuse you again for condoning it?

How about you come up with something more concrete? something verifiable and confirmed by experts like... a commission established by President or mayor or federal agency. I've provided you a Christopher Commission report that substantially supported my claim. You seem to disagree with its finding.

So do you have anything that would support your vague claim?

 

[rolling7]

AS I was explaining to Naisho, these sources ain't worth the text and certainly help in no positive way.
Let me give examples. Keep in mind we will never get answers to my questions because these commissions reports are totally inclusive.

The Christopher Commission is quoted as saying:
"depict the LAPD as an organization with practices and procedures that are conducive to discriminatory treatment and officer misconduct directed to members of minority groups."

Question: Is the Commission in it's characterization of LAPD including all members of all ranks in its finding?

If the answer is yes (and I feel that can be the only answer), then the Commission must be pointing to the misconduct and discriminatory treatment of Latinos and Asians by black officers.


There is a quote from the Commission report in reference to a flame thrower and a b-b-q and a second quote of "I almost got me a mexican."


Question: What was/were the race(s) of the officer(s) whom made the comment?

If the Commission knows that answer(s), why was the answer(s) not included in the report?


As I said, AD members can question each other and hope for an answer but a source is a waste of text. We will never get an answer and that in itself is totally unfair to every member of AD. Right, Naisho?

 

[Jiro]

AS I was explaining to Naisho, these sources ain't worth the text and certainly help in no positive way.

then what would satisfy you?

Let me give examples. Keep in mind we will never get answers to my questions because these commissions reports are totally inclusive.

The Christopher Commission is quoted as saying:
"depict the LAPD as an organization with practices and procedures that are conducive to discriminatory treatment and officer misconduct directed to members of minority groups."

Question: Is the Commission in it's characterization of LAPD including all members of all ranks in its finding?

If the answer is yes (and I feel that can be the only answer), then the Commission must be pointing to the misconduct and discriminatory treatment of Latinos and Asians by black officers.


There is a quote from the Commission report in reference to a flame thrower and a b-b-q and a second quote of "I almost got me a mexican."


Question: What was/were the race(s) of the officer(s) whom made the comment?

If the Commission knows that answer(s), why was the answer(s) not included in the report?

As I said, AD members can question each other and hope for an answer but a source is a waste of text. We will never get an answer and that in itself is totally unfair to every member of AD. Right, Naisho?

That's called nitpicking. and it's mainly trivial. If you're going to dispute the finding, then come up with something substantial. and you're wondering what was the race of officer who made the racist comment? really? seriously?

The Commission found that there is a significant number of officers in the LAPD who repetitively use excessive force against the public and persistently ignore the written guidelines of the Department regarding force. This finding is documented and confirmed, from several perspectives, by the detailed analyses of documents and statistics performed by the Commission. Our computerized study of the complaints filed in recent years shows a strong concentration of allegations against a problem group of officers. A comparable study of the use of force reports reveals a similar concentration. Graphic confirmation of improper attitudes and practices is provided by the brazen and extensive references to beatings and other excessive uses of force in the MOTs. The Commission also found that the problem of excessive force is aggravated by racism and bias, again strikingly revealed in the MOTs.

I don't know how can you dispute that. You're nitpicking on something that hardly affects the whole investigation and its finding. I ask you this - do you believe the entire Christoper Commission report is unfounded and seriously flawed? and that it's just part of witch hunting for something that doesn't exist?

 

[Steinhauer]

I don't need to read your mind because I don't believe mind reading is real. I can read between words and see what your ulterior motive is. You are, of course, free to correct me if I'm wrong. My analysis is obviously not infallible but it's been fairly accurate most of times.


You missed the entire point or maybe you didn't read rest of my posts yet. But I've never said racism cannot be blamed for human rights violation in other countries. I've already explained in good detail in Post #405-#407 especially about Pakistan.


no you did not say racism isn't a factor but I can see what you're trying to do. you are attempting to trivialize it as if it's a distraction for a "real reason" and then you say say - "no it's something else.... it's something deeper...." How conveniently vague it is. and nowhere in my post say anything about you condoning Rodney King's beatdown. You've already clarified your position on it so why would I still accuse you again for condoning it?

How about you come up with something more concrete? something verifiable and confirmed by experts like... a commission established by President or mayor or federal agency. I've provided you a Christopher Commission report that substantially supported my claim. You seem to disagree with its finding.

So do you have anything that would support your vague claim?

I do not think racism is a trivial matter. I also do not hold the belief that one race is more racist than another.

Before I go further, where have I disputed the Christopher Commission report? I remember asking for the qualifications of those who presented it. Has it been peer reviewed ...etc.

 

[Jiro]

I do not think racism is a trivial matter. I also do not hold the belief that one race is more racist than another.

Who is more racist than other is not even a case in here. The whole purpose of this is to show a racial injustice going on in police departments all over America. It has confirmed that LAPD was engaging in illegal acts of racial bias and racial discrimination. The whole point is showing that people in power are exhibiting racial bias and racial discrimination when abusing people.

In this case, LAPD which was largely comprised of white males was abusing minorities. That's why LAPD underwent substantial changes to include minorities and women in its structures.

Before I go further, where have I disputed the Christopher Commission report?

I'm asking you.

I remember asking for the qualifications of those who presented it.

why not look it up yourself? Click on http://www.parc.info/client_files/Special Reports/1 - Chistopher Commision.pdf and you can easily find it. It's in the first several pages and the last couple pages (Appendix II) for a list of staff, interviewees, witnesses, experts, and superiors involved in this part. It was chaired by Warren Christopher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Has it been peer reviewed ...etc.

peer reviewed? lol!!! that's only for academic/medical research study in order to get published. Christopher Commission is not an academic/medical research study. It's fact-finding investigation.

Again... if you're concerned about Christopher Commission's finding, read the first few pages and the last few pages for the validity and thoroughness of the report.

 

[Steinhauer]

Ah - so it was politically motivated ...

Thought so. Thanks. I did not realize politicians were qualified to write unbiased reports. <<<sarcasm in case you didn't notice

Being peer reviewed would lend a lot more credibility - since it wasn't - it is just political spin.

The democrats sure tried hard those years to shake the sad fact they supported segregation.

 

[Jiro]

Ah - so it was politically motivated ...

Thought so. Thanks. I did not realize politicians were qualified to write unbiased reports. <<<sarcasm in case you didn't notice

who? Warren Christopher?

Being peer reviewed would lend a lot more credibility - since it wasn't - it is just political spin.

but... this is not an academic/medical research study. do you even understand how peer review works and what's it for? if this report was peer reviewed, then that means whatever was stated in the report only existed in laboratory experiment, not real world. that's why medical research must be peer-reviewed prior to FDA approval.

did you even read the first and last few pages? the investigation was quite detailed and very thorough. handful of police chiefs, commissioners, superiors, and experts agreed with the findings.

 

[Jiro]

a commission was conducted as well called "The Knapp Commission" to investigate NYPD in 1970's. Knapp Commission provided a foundation as a precedent for Christopher Commission to investigate LAPD.

 

[Steinhauer]

who? Warren Christopher?


but... this is not an academic/medical research study. do you even understand how peer review works? if this report was peer reviewed, then that means whatever was stated in the report existed only in laboratory experiment, not real world.

did you even read the first and last few pages? the investigation was quite detailed and very thorough. handful of police chiefs, commissioners, superiors, and experts agreed with the findings.

If you are going to present something as factual, it should be thoroughly and academically reviewed. Just saying .... that was why I had initially asked what were the academic qualifications of the presenters of this report to do unbiased research. What were the qualifications of the police chiefs, commissioners, superiors and experts?

I think I remember the re-structuring you are talking about now, it opened the gate for affirmative action which was "proven" a failure by the Cato Institute (a political source - just like yours).


The Affirmative Action Myth | Marie Gryphon | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis

Recent sociological research demonstrates that preferences hurt campus race relationships. Worse, they harm minority student performance by activating fears of confirming negative group stereotypes, lowering grades, and reducing college completion rates among preferred students.

Tit for tat.

I am again, going to politely, but firmly assert, that racism is not the root cause. It goes much deeper.

 

[Steinhauer]

More of that restructuring in progress:

FDNY branded 'racist' for not recruiting enough firemen from black and other minority groups | Mail Online


and then there is this to dispute it:

Asian firefighters see no racism in the FDNY - Queens Chronicle: Queenswide

 

[Jiro]

If you are going to present something as factual, it should be thoroughly and academically reviewed. Just saying .... that was why I had initially asked what were the academic qualifications of the presenters of this report to do unbiased research.

why is it very difficult for you to grasp the understanding of "peer review"?

so now are you disputing Christopher Commission's finding? What part of it is flawed and wrong? Tell me exactly in detail.... otherwise at this point, all I see is you cherry-picking around and grasping for straws.

What were the qualifications of the police chiefs, commissioners, superiors and experts?

Why aren't you looking it up yourself? I gave you a link to report. it's in the first and last few pages. I'm not going to copy/paste it for you when you can simply click on it and read it for yourself.

I think I remember the re-structuring you are talking about now, it opened the gate for affirmative action which was "proven" a failure by the Cato Institute (a political source - just like yours).

The Affirmative Action Myth | Marie Gryphon | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis

Tit for tat.

what is the academic qualification of this presenter? is it peer-reviewed?

PARC is not a political source. It is a non-profit organization that, in cooperation with monitors, law enforcement executives, civic and government officials, community groups, and other interested constituencies, aims to strengthen police oversight so as to advance effective, respectful, and publicly accountable policing.

See PARC's member roster -

Board of Trustees



Merrick Bobb
President, PARC

Merrick Bobb is the President and founding director of PARC, a project the Vera Institute of Justice developed and launched in Los Angeles. A lawyer, he was the first person to occupy the role of police monitor and has become a nationally recognized expert on police oversight and reform. Mr. Bobb has monitored the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department for sixteen years and has consulted with jurisdictions around the country and with the U.S. Department of Justice.




Michael Graham
Assistant Sheriff - Retired

Michael Graham was employed by the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department for 32 years, rising through the ranks from Deputy to Assistant Sheriff. Now retired from the Sheriff's Department, he has remained active with the California police Summer Games, the World Police and Fire Games, and the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) Policy Center. He serves as a consultant to the Civil Rights Division of the United States Department of Justice in connection with their pattern and practice investigations of police misconduct in a number of different jurisdictions.

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Michael Jacobson
Director, Vera Institute of Justice

Michael P. Jacobson joined the Vera Institute of Justice as director in January 2005. He is the author of Downsizing Prisons: How to Reduce Crime and End Mass Incarceration (New York University Press 2005). He was the New York City Correction Commissioner from 1995 to 1998. From 1992 to 1996, he was New York City's Probation Commissioner, and from 1984 to 1992, he worked in the New York City Office of Management and Budget where he was the Deputy Budget Director. Immediately before joining Vera, he was a professor at the City University of New York Graduate Center and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice where he taught courses in urban sociology, criminology, public policy and finance, corrections and criminal justice policies and public administration. He established and coordinated an Associate Degree program on Rikers Island for correction officers and staff and received funding from New York State Legislature to design, implement and evaluate a college course on police leadership and human dignity for first line police supervisors.

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Christopher Stone
Professor of Practice and the Daniel and Florence Guggenheim Chair of Criminal Justice Policy and Management, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University

Prior to joining the faculty of the Kennedy School of Government in January 2005, Chris Stone served as director of the Vera Institute of Justice beginning in 1994. He started working at Vera in 1986, serving first as director of its London office, then as founding director of the Center for Alternative Sentencing and Employment Services (CASES) and the Neighborhood Defender Service of Harlem (NDS).

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Senior Advisors



Thomas Frazier
Senior Advisor
e-mail: information@parc.info
tel: (213) 623-5757

Thomas Frazier joined PARC as a senior advisor in April, 2002. He was awarded the Bronze Star, the Air Medal, and the Combat Infantryman's Badge for his service in the Vietnam War. During his 1967 to 1994 tenure with the San Jose Police Department Frazier was promoted through the ranks to Deputy Chief. He was the Police Commissioner of Baltimore, Maryland from 1994 to 1999. Frazier held the position of Director with the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS). Frazier has also served the Homeland Security Task Force and was a Fellow for the Institute for Public Philosophy. He is the Executive Director of the Major Cities Police Chiefs Association and has served as President of the Board of Directors of the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF). Frazier is the President of Frazier Group LLC, a criminal justice consulting firm specializing in law enforcement technology, department assessment, executive search, and civil rights compliance.

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[Jiro]

More of that restructuring in progress:

FDNY branded 'racist' for not recruiting enough firemen from black and other minority groups | Mail Online


and then there is this to dispute it:

Asian firefighters see no racism in the FDNY - Queens Chronicle: Queenswide

this is related to LAPD...... how?