Is it normal.......?

[Reba]

Once again, I guess I crossed the line and shared my 'radical' views with you. And also I am a not parent so I guess I have no rights (er, privileges) to "voice" my opinion as what I did above.

You didn't cross any line, and you can give your opinion, as long as you don't other posters debating your opinion.

 

[Vance]

Ok, since you chosen to ignore few points that I made so therefore I choose to ignore your points that you tried to make but I want to point out few things.

So? They are vain about outward appearance. I am not impressed.

Um. What you said is totally unbelievable. Let me post this quote:

I read the books about France and its culture, they are so damn proud of their bodies and thier nakedness bodies. Their daughters less likely have any problem with their bodies such as self-esteem, self-assured, etc while lack of self-esteem, self-assured, etc is a epidemic in America. That's the huge difference between French and Americans.

... I am not aware that self-esteem, self-assured, self-confident, etc etc is... outward appearance. I think I better not to argue about that or else, it will explode my head to figure out what's that comment means.

Yes, you really are off topic, unless you are saying privatizing is a Puritan doctrine. Poor Puritans! They get blamed for everything. They must be rolling in their graves.

Oh goodness, you contradicted yourself with that um, comment. Here's YOUR statement:

can puritanism be "the biggest problem in American"? I have never even met one Puritan in America, and I have never seen one on TV or in the newspaper. If anything, I think hedonism, pride, materialism, and self-centeredness are worse problems in America. Modesty in dress and behavior is hardly a rampent epidemic in America.

You are the one who brought up about materialism and self-centeredness. I didn't even talk about puritanism in that "point" and yet you falsely accused me for mentioning about puritanism which I didn't in that point. Let me quote my comment:

Bit offtopic, I wonder if do you even aware that privatization is part of self-centeredness and materialism? (these Corporation-related books I read indicated that they are related). In that case, I am more than glad to say that I agree with you about self-centeredness and materialism as two of several biggest problems in America. I thank you for pointing these out.

Where is the "puritanism" that you spoke of? I wonder is it your way to avoid to argue about privatization is part of materialism and self-centeredness which I made a good point about that? But you gave me something to think about, I believe I possibly will make a topic (more likely blog) about the link between materialism & centeredness and privatization.

Ha, ha. Do you even know what real Puritans were?

http://www.puritansermons.com/banner/logan1.htm

Oh goodness. Is that article supposed to counter the political books that I read? Fat chance. Someday, I will create a blog with plenty of evidences from these books and I also will pm you to check it out. Not in this topic. Yes, I do know what real puritans are but I get the feeling that you don't even aware that there are still puritan presence in America.

Huh? I thought your previous paragraph implied the Puritans were too materialistic because they supported privatization. Isn't that the "economy"? You can't have it both ways. Either the "Puritans" are more concerned about morals or about the economy. Which is it?

It is my turn to say "huh?" Why are you kept avoiding to argue with my points? Where did I ever imply that Puritans were too materialistic? Read my comment once again, you clearly (or purposely) misread what I was trying to say. You are too much for that, honestly...

I strongly suggest you to check the voting statistic to see which reason your party voted Bush for. I will be more than glad to answer for you, it is morals. While why others voted Kerry because of economy. Does that answer your question? I think someone need to reread the definition of puritanism to clear up what I tried to make a point.

I don't think there are many Puritans around today, because I don't see many Americans acting hostile to "social pleasures and indulgences." Most seem to be enjoying themselves without restriction.

Bull. Just bull. Pray tell, why does religious groups want to close the dancing clubs in California and other states? Why they want to ban Harry Potter? Why they want to put a control on TV stations? What about video games? Ohh, what about gay marriage? List go on and on. I am sure that you do remember two or three topics that I made about conservatives or religious groups were trying to close down the dance clubs and something else. Please don't kid yourself when you said that.

Edit: btw, I am not even talking about majority of Americans...

I read your links, and they didn't state any connection between naked parents and rape.

Did I say that? I really don't know why you tried so hard to avoid to argue with my points. Whatever. I mentioned that I read somewhere in medical journal concerning about that part. It stated that it actually reduced the rate of rape if their parents exposed theirs to their young children. I believe there are some more medical articles about that, I will need to look for it.

That is ridiculous. I checked your link, and it didn't say anything about naked parents being the source of "closeness, etc." Do you have any real research to back up that statement?

Ma'am, what you said is totally ridiculous. I am not aware that I actually used the links to argue about "closeness"... I used these facts which I learned from numbers of psychology books, children behavior books, mothering magazines, list go on and on. I do have the 'real' researches which back me up but I will have to reread numbers of these books and magazines to point it out (btw, I will do that in my blog, not this topic).

ha, ha, you are assuming that I have never before read any "psychology/behavior-related books" just because I have a different viewpoint. It might shock you to know that not every psychologist is a liberal.

Based on your comments above, it is more likely that you haven't. It might shock you to know that several conservatives who wrote the books supported the philosophy of closeness, self-confident, etc that I explained above. What else I recommended you to pick up the book that I read. No, it is not related to what I mentioned in my posts but I do read the conservative book so therefore I did but the real question is: have you ever read the "liberal" books? Maybe that's why someone refuse to acknowledge the facts about closeness, self-assured, etc?

And btw, "liberal" or "conservative" argument is quite tiresome and... I read the books which wrote by both liberals and conservatives. Reason why I read the articles, journals, magazines, books, etc by conservatives and liberals to put a stop on these "this is liberal" or "this is conservative" argument that some conservatives tend to use when I brought up some points. I am quite tired of it so I read the books & magazines by both liberals and conservatives. And you forget that I am a conservative too (and liberal, balance is the key) but not yuck, "Americanized". So give it a rest and do it with someone else.

Frankly, I am disappointed with your "attitude" I guess that's right word for me to put in. But in this case, I am no better either. Yes, I admitted. With these comments you made and I made, I think our argument will go nowhere so I better stop and ignore this topic completely.

Cheri, thanks but this topic is wrong for this argument that Reba and I had anyway. So therefore I shut up and ignore this topic. Once again, thanks. Later all and be sure to check my blog whenever (only God knows when) it comes up if any of you are interesting in this argument Reba and I had.

Edit: To add one more thing. Your quote:

Ha, ha. Do you even know what real Puritans were?

http://www.puritansermons.com/banner/logan1.htm

"Real Puritans", I believe you do know what I am talking about. I mean, there are different level of liberalism, conservatism, moderatism, etc etc. Right? Like.. Americanized conseratives. Tradionally conservatives. Social conservatives. The list go on and on. But the conception of conservatism is their fundamental. It is similar as with Puritanism case. In that logic, Puritans hasn't 'vanished' in America. I honestly wonder if do you even know what real conservatism were? I recently found out that not many conservatives does. I also found out what real liberalism means too. That's why I altered my poltical stand from extreme liberal to semi-liberal and semi-conservative. Anyway, I am done with this topic.

 

[Vance]

You didn't cross any line, and you can give your opinion, as long as you don't other posters debating your opinion.

I just did crossed the line with my attitude. So I have to stop right now before this argument between you and I get worser. Later.

Note: My blog link is in my profile area.

 

[Reba]

...I strongly suggest you to check the voting statistic to see which reason your party voted Bush for. . .

Just to set the record straight AGAIN, I am not registered with any political "party", so please quit referring to "your party".

... With these comments you made and I made, I think our argument will go nowhere so I better stop and ignore this topic completely.

On this point I agree; I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[SpiceHD]

at reba and magatsu lol

I have seen my mom nude often when i was younger since she was sleeping nude and during summertime she often takes blanket off already ( i alway go in her bedroom to wake her up for work or something. She was always sick and sleeping a lot so i alway go in her bedroom at like 3 pm with a sandwich and milk plus her cigs to get her going) I saw my dad nude only once and it freaked me out lol again he was sleeping and nothing was covered. I sure glad its only one time and i think i maybe was 7 years old?

the children of mine will see me nude till they are old enough to take shower or bath by themselves then that would be stopped. However if any kids enter by accidently into bathroom... i would be surprised but wont be angry. I usually try to teach any kids how to get my attention apprioately with light switch or stomping on the floor. I understand sometime kids do make mistakes and thats cool.

i really cant say much here since i do not have any kids yet... i am only making guesses of waht i would react. nudity with kids will go as far as safety is neccessary but no farther than that. if it is not neccessary, then no reason for me to be nude around kids period. I believe in a little modesty. I might be a bit more open with daughters than sons but i cant really tell till i have one of my own.

 

[downing]

This is interesting thread.

My mom saw me buck naked when i gave birth to my both sons. i needed help getting into shower. My mom just helped and didnt care about my nakeness even there were men nurses there during my childbirth. what can you do about it?

I have seen my father in law naked by accident, but again he has alzheimer's and you have to tolerate and help him even he can not remember to pull up his underwear/diapers and pants. it is very difficult to see someone being naked. what can you do?

to a certain point, you will have to approach nakeness under circumstances like health reasons that you have to accept it. like if you were in a bad car accident, all er nurses would have to cut all your clothes up to get access to your body to make sure no internal injuries.

I agree with some people that they should not see their parents in underwear or naked when they bring friends/guests. My parents had modesty of respect.

I know some people don't feel uncomfy being naked in front of children, it doesn't bother me so much until certain age. I will respect their space and privacy.

there are many issues about being nakeness.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Very interesting thread here.

I'm going to paste some of links from websites since I saw some of you mentioned "puritanical".

And will answer your posts later.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Modern Day Body Acceptance

I know it's long but it's worth to read. Very interesting.


In today's society, we have a view of the human body that is as wide as there are body varieties. Some of these views are, fat, skinny, ugly, shame, embarrassment, sex, perversion, violent and evil. To the other side, it is sexy, beautiful, artistic, Godly, something to share and show and care for. People can grow up being comfortable with their bodies or uncomfortable. We have become so obsessive about our looks, and our bodies that we don't know whether to hide it or show it off, to be proud of it or to be ashamed of it. We are afraid if someone sees our body nude even for a split second, then we feel violated, yet we wear bikinis and exercise our bodies so we can show it off and feel better about ourselves. Yet they are still embarrassed. Oh! That makes my head hurt!

Do not all males have penises and all females have vaginas?

Do we all have legs, arms, feet, noses (of all shapes and sizes), hands, belly buttons, etc.?

What are we afraid of?

What do you have that I don't have?

Let's go back to the beginning. For most of the people, (in the United States anyway), religion has a lot to do with this phenomenon. It is a paradox.

Why do those who are religious have a body phobia that causes them to feel totally outraged by the sight of a naked human being that was ironically create in the image and likeness of God?

Is that feeling God ordained?

Is God ashamed of himself?

Does God hate his own creation?

Does God hate human beings but not animals?

Is that possibly true? Did God make a mistake when he created man naked in the Garden of Eden by forgetting to clothe them?

Could the idea of being naked cause them to "fall"?

Or was it something else? Does God hate us?

Could the bible be lying when it said that He forgave us ALL our sins when we accepted His Son as our savior?

Do not forget what Jesus said on the cross, "Forgive them, for they know not what they are doing." He said that in advance, before they repented. Now that is Amazing Grace. Even the thief was saved on the cross when he recognized Jesus as the Christ.
What works did the thief do to prove to God his righteousness? He wasn't even baptized. I think there is more going on here than we can see with our physical eyes. But let's get back to the subject.

Cont.....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont...

What about those who do not believe in a creator?

Why are they so paranoid about the body?

Why do they say 'my body is shameful' when they too look just like a Christian and any other human being?

When in our "evolution" history did we become ashamed of our bodies?

Could this be a sickness in our society or is this normal?

Does God want us to hate ourselves and our bodies to the point where we become self-destructive?

Those who are religious and non religious decorate their bodies, feed it, take care of it, and try to look pleasant, smell nice and generally look like a handsome bunch, yet are totally ashamed of themselves. They hate themselves yet at the same time, love themselves. Christians say that our bodies are evil yet decorate it, clean it, feed it, and go to church in it. They hug each other, shake hands, walk to the alter, sing and pray with it, and then have a wonderful potluck fellowship afterwards, while all the time, they feel their bodies are shameful and need to be hidden from the sight of others.

Think about this fellow Christians; Did God not create man in His own image and His own likeness?

Read Genesis 1:26-27, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...', So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Three (3) times in Gods image.

Now let me ask you a fair question.

Is God shame?

Is what God created shameful?

Do you go to God and say "Shame on you God for creating me this way"?

Romans 9:20 "Does the pot say to the potter, 'Why did you make me thus?' "

What did God say?

If you believe the Bible as Gods authoritative word, then do you believe him when Genesis 1:31 says, "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." "Very good."

Did you get that?

Did we miss something here?

Did we lose something in the translation?

Genesis 2:25 "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."

Now what?

What is going on here?

Okay, so they were husband and wife!

Is that why they were naked?

If they had children, would they have instinctively put on clothes?

Would God have come down and said "Oh yeah, I forgot, you need some clothes!"

Take a look at Genesis. 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it..."

Well?

Was that not while they were still naked?

He didn't say "Because you are naked, be fruitful and multiply".

Did God say put on clothes as soon as you figure out how?

When you have your first child? No.

He said "Be fruitful and multiply..." indicating many children while still naked. Now we seem to have carried the "fruitful and multiply" command out to a fault. We even subdued the earth and animals without argument. But that naked part... Yuck!

What compelled God to create us naked?

Well, could it be that it is because he carried out his plan and created us in his image?

Could be! God does not have a false image that He keep covered up! That is what we do! We cover the image of God and create our own image. "The clothes make the man (or woman,)" we say. And then we add, "This is what God is like! This is how God really wants us. Forget what He did in the Garden. That was just a slip up. He was really going to come down and clothe us! In fact He did clothe us!"

But how did He clothe us and why?

Did God come down for the sole purpose of clothing us or did we clothe ourselves?

When did he clothe us?

How long did he allow Adam and Eve to remain in their nude condition until he clothed them?

Did he clothe them because Eve was pregnant and was about to have children? It doesn't say that.

Then what does it say?

Cont....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont....

Lets look at Genesis 3:7, they saw that they were naked, and "they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons." They made themselves aprons. A fact that many do not realize, is that throughout the entire bible and at this point as well, the female breasts were never considered to be a shameful or sexual part of the body. Read the Book of Solomon. Women at that time, including Eve, were not afraid to go without a top covering. Women worked often without a top to,

1. Keep cool,
2. Freedom of movement,
3. To keep clothes clean from too much sweat and damage,
4. Style (yes, they had clothing style then too) and
5.To breast feed their babies. It was an HONOR to breast feed a baby. It was nevera sin in the bible for women to breast feed their babies in public view.

That is a modern fixation that has been fabricated nearly two thousand years after Christ, and the losers are the babies themselves. Now that is shameful.

Aprons only covered the front and maybe the back. Skirt is another term used, which suggests that they covered the backside as well, but not the breasts.

Now why did they do this?

Was it the right thing to do?

Was God pleased with their invention?

Did they suddenly became modest and said "Oh, excuse me, I didn't mean to run around in front of you naked! How silly of me."?

According to Genesis 3:10, Adam was afraid! He hid because he was afraid! It was raw fear! Now think about that one for a minute. There is no time frame mentioned from the creation of man, to the tree incident, so it could have been days, weeks or even months. All of this time, both Adam and Eve have been walking in the garden, working, naming animals, talking and walking with God, and "living it up in paradise"...totally nude!

Now all of a sudden they got modest?

Boy, what a little "knowledge" did for them!

Did God warn them to not eat of that tree? Yes He did.

But was Satan right in saying that God was holding out on them?

That God was afraid of them having "special knowledge"?

Could Satan be right and God wrong?

Well, from what I am hearing in today's attitude toward the body, the Christians are saying, "YES"! The Christians are saying that Adam was correct for listening to Satan and in putting something on. So in a sense, Satan did man a favor!

But what did God say about this?

Oh yes! God, what did He say?

Well, for starters, we can see he wasn't carrying a catalog of the latest fashions. In fact, God was "walking in the garden in the cool of the day", and as his usual custom, He wanted to see his children. Well, wouldn't you?

And would he be surprised to see them running around naked (which ironically is how he left them). Would you?

You would, but God? What did he say?

He said in Genesis 3:11,

"Who told you that you were naked?

Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Whoa here. That sounds more like he was displeased with their action. Now we all know that God did indeed clothe them, but was that to cover their naked bodies in shame, or was it to protect them in their new environment?

If we seriously take God clothing them as a "sign and command" that we "must wear clothes at all times", then we must also take God giving them coats of skin (leather and fir) to mean that this is what we must wear. Not cotton. (Cotton = plants/Fig leaves = plants). But we decide that one is okay but the other is not (self-knowledge from the tree again). I also wonder about that coat of skin. I doubt seriously that it was human skin. It was, I am sure, animal skin. Think about this.

If He did cover them in shame, then in effect, God was saying, "So you don't like the Godly image I gave you? Then I will reduce you to an "animal" (so to speak), cover your Godly, living skin with ungodly dead skin from a dead animal. And every time you sin, (and you will,) I will require that you kill yet another animal as atonement for sin, as a covering for sin, (for the blood of animals cannot really forgive). You will be reminded continually of what you did this day by being ashamed and fearful. Wearing this dead skin is a reminder that you were ashamed and hid from me instead of coming to me as you were, and asking for forgiveness." (See "God Said/Satan Said".) Today, we sing in our churches, "Just as I am" and "Walk in the Garden" yet do the opposite. If only Adam and Eve did just that! (See "Adam and Eve".)

See link "God Said/Satan Said". http://www.geocities.com/boydallen/naturism_god_satan.html

See link "Adam and Eve"
http://www.geocities.com/boydallen/naturism_adam_eve.html

Cont....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont...

Now back to today's Christian.

Who are the Christians?

What do they believe?

Christians are people who believe in a Savior named Jesus Christ. Actually, His given name is Jesus. The name Christ is not his last name. It is his title. Christ means "Messiah", "Savior" of the world. The Hebrew nation (Judah [Jews] and their fellow brothers, Levi, Dan, etc.), were looking forward to the promised messiah. Even Adam and Eve knew there would be a messiah to reverse what they had done. Jesus was that messiah or "Christ". A few years after the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension to heaven to be at His Fathers side, when the church began to grow in popularity, the people around the country side began to call these followers of Christ, "Christians", (see Acts 11:26). What was so different about the followers of Christ from the Jewish nation as a whole?

They no longer gave sacrifices. Since Jesus became the sacrifice for all that would accept him then there would be no more sacrifice from that time on.

Now does that mean there is no more sin?

As long as you stay in Christ and continue in faith, and avoid sin, then there is no more sin. (See "The Book of Romans") But of course we cannot possibly continue in this life perfectly without sin. Then what do we do?

We grab the nearest bush and hide from God, right? No, no, no...

That was what Adam and Eve did remember? We don't want to do that again! We run to God as we are and ask him to forgive us and not just cover our sins but to wash them away and we will be clean spiritually. Jesus [the] Christ washed away our sins and we are no longer required to perform animal sacrifices. We have been restored to our original state to where we can come to God in the garden, walk and talk with him "just as I am". Then why do we still insist that our bodies are shameful?

See The book of Roman http://www.geocities.com/boydallen/naturism_romans.html

The other difference with the Christian is that they believe that the old laws (The Torah, or The laws of Moses) were done away with.
If that is the case then all the laws of the Old Testament cannot be used to dictate our lifestyle.
In the New Testament, there are laws governing human behavior, but the difference is, they are not numbered laws written on stone for us to follow in letter, but they are laws written in our hearts.
Here is an interesting saying, "Those who are lawless, knows no law and those who are not lawless, needs no law." You have to think about that one. Read Galatians 3:19-25 or all if you would like. (If you read Galatians 3:10 and find that wearing clothes is a Law, then it would be true that wearing clothing because of what happened in the Garden of Eden is a curse we must live by. But look at 3:13 and you will find that we are redeemed from that curse.)
Man needed laws because there was no relationship between man and God. Man was cut off from God, and separated. He tried to hide himself with coverings, which did nothing to cover the sin. The only thing the coats of (dead) skin did was cover what man used to represent sin. It was the blood sacrifice that the skin came from that was used to cover the sin. It never cleansed man from guilt. Man still had to die for his sin. That was just a temporary solution until the One who was promised to be the messiah came and died for all of mankind, from Adam and Eve to the last human ever to be born on this earth. Only Jesus Christ can do that because He never sinned. He was God. He was not ashamed to come to earth and take on a human existence, the form and shape of a naked man. He had to eat, sleep and take baths just like any other man. He looked like, acted like and smelled like any red blooded Jew that was around him. Well, as far as acting like, he did better than that. He lived a life that he expected his followers to live. A life that did not depend on the old covenant, the Jewish laws and standards. That did it. He dies. The Pharisees kept pointing to the Old Testament just like many do today (despite the fact that we say it has been done away with) and He kept pointing it right back to them and saying "O.K., then why aren't you doing them?" They kept talking about what he does on the outside while he kept talking about the inside.

They were noticing his "naked body" so to speak and he told them, "you are like tombs, washed and white on the outside while full of dead men's bones on the inside". Though they were dressed in their finery on the outside and put on a great show, they were spiritually naked on the inside.
They were not looking at the heart but only on outward appearances.

They kept making Laws and regulations that were never intended by God.

Are we guilty of the same thing?

It is interesting that they made laws about, food, cleanliness, Sabbath, tithing, and yet strict laws about nudity have never been brought up.
Nudity was all around them. Nude Olympics and public baths, inside and outside were very common.
The Christians frequented these places just as much as their neighbor.

Now I'm not saying that people ran around naked as a normal lifestyle. But if they did, there would have only been a few places they couldn't go because of it.
People in those days looked at a naked body as either shame, or an act of humility. Shame, not like we do today, but as in very poor and in need. Someone who had nothing and probably came to town to beg.
They didn't arrest them for it or called them sex perverts. But Jesus wanted us to love them, care for them and give them the shirt off our back, literally. Not to treat them as shameful, but as people who needs a neighbor.
Think about the Samaritan who was a neighbor to the Jew who was ambushed by thieves. "But," you say, "He was stripped of his clothing, not just freely running around foot loose and fancy free!" True, however that was what the scripture was referring to when it says to clothe the naked. People that were in need, just like being hungry, you need to feed them. If someone were to fast (go without food for a period of time to draw close to God), would you consider them sinning? Some people will fast for 24 or more hours. Jesus fasted for 40 days! Now God gave us food to eat. He said that we could eat of the fruit of the trees.
Is that a command? Well, try going without food for a few days and let's see how far you go.
It seems to me you must eat or you die! But is it a sin to go without food? Even when it says to feed the hungry? Of course not. Yet we take "clothing the naked" as a sign that physical nudity is a sin.
Christians from around 500 AD onward tried to force clothing on people even in areas where it was not needed or wanted.
Did you know that you could spend a whole lifetime without clothing and survive just fine? Weather permitting of course!
Our bodies acclimate to our surroundings. It has a natural temperature adjustment that God built right in. When we wear clothing all of the time, our bodies get used to it and become lazy and dependent on clothing for warmth. As for warmth, we don't even need clothing in the summer, yet we wear something to keep cool. (?)

But try going without food. Ah yes, glorious food. We have become gluttons in this country.
Jesus said it is a sin to be gluttonous, yet we are without feeling guilty.
We die over a period of time if we do not eat. If we are to deny our bodies of food to draw close to God, then why is it a sin to "deny" our bodies of clothing?
Besides, for anyone who has spent anytime without clothing, especially outdoors, find it very comfortable, easy to work, quickly adjustable to temperature and relaxing. They get used to it very quickly. (I find below 40 degrees a bit difficult). What is really amazing about it is that our minds are not even on anything evil or perverted.
The person looking (or staring) usually has their mind reeling with all kinds of thoughts and fears but the person being unknowingly stared at, has their mind on whatever project is at hand.

Now who has the problem? I'll give you a hint.

Who had the problem, Bathsheba who was innocently taking a bath outdoors or David who did the staring and lusting?
Ask God. Read the full account in 2 Samuel 11:1-26 and 12:1-11.

You will find it was David who got into trouble. Outdoor bathing was not the problem.
Since indoor plumbing was not used at that time, it was common to bathe in rivers, lakes and in a tub in your back yard. Families bathed together a lot.

Even earlier in our own history of the U.S. and Europe, boys swimming in the nude in the open in front of others was normal. Norman Rockwell portrayed it, Mark Twain wrote of it, and many other paintings and stories of it in our own culture.


Cont....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont....

How did it disappear? Shame.

We suddenly put shame on something we never had before!

Someone got worried and decided to make a law against it. Imagine it.

Children get to play in the nude, and you will never have to worry about their clothes going to ruin.

Little children are natural nudists.

Adults haven't taught them the shame yet.

But don't worry, someone will teach these poor children that they have something to be ashamed of, themselves. Isn't that sweet?

The children are already taught that they are strange and perverts, having some sexual desire because they would rather do without the bother of clothing.

Of course that was not on their minds, but we as adults must have thought that thought and told them.

Doesn't that sound familiar? Adam and Eve were God's children and they were innocently living out their lives in the nude and some adult (Satan) came along and taught them shame.

Now we as adults who got the story in the bible to teach us differently, will do the devils work anyway.

We just keep perpetuating the lie Satan taught us. Especially the Christians! Let's put a stop to it.

"But there are perverts and child abusers out there!

I can't allow my children to play in the nude!" Oh. I see.

And I am sure the perverts are not doing these things because they are dressed and that protects the children?

Actually, children and adults who see the nude bodies as normal and not shame, come out as normal and not perverts.

There have been studies that have shown that children who live in a nudist environment not only are not shocked by the human body, but also do not see shame in themselves and others and end up growing up with a better attitude toward themselves and others.

They do not grow up to be sexual perverts, and child abusers! As teens, they are not acting like a "teenager" when it comes to seeing other teen's bodies.

Girls and Boys are more comfortable and are not worried about body changes and having premarital sex. That of course does not guarantee chastity, but has clothing really helped? Look at our society and see what clothing has done. Now that is a shame.

Now what can we as Christians do about it?

As I started this article, I commented on the fact that there are many views of the human body, bad and good. How can we change that?

Do we want to change that?

If you want your child to grow up with a healthy attitude toward their fellow humans, then you would want to. How?

Well, buying Playboy magazines (and the like) and have them lying around is not the way to go. In fact, that only perpetuates the situation and reduces women to sexual playthings and not elevates them as God's children. There is much profit ($$) in our ignorance and fear.

These "legalized forms of prostitution" are making billions of dollars a year from sex hungry men and women. If the human body was not shame and people looked at it as something normal and treated Gods creation as wonderful and not shame, then they would lose most of their market.

People wouldn't run to the bookstores and movies to "look at tits" (boy that sounds dumb) because it would be like running to the bookstores and movies to "look at a face". You say "Yeah, but faces are normal." YES! That's the point!

As a male who has succumbed to the pull of the flesh, and has seen these magazines, I know what it does to the body and mind.

It treats women with less respect and love, then lust, desire, and just plain selfishness takes over. Our minds are not right.

You would be right in taking away the magazines from the children.
But it's in how and why you take it away that makes the difference.
It isn't the bodies that you don't want them to see. That should be normal.

It is in how the body is used that you want to teach them differently. If you and your family are used to each other without clothes and all your activities are good wholesome Christian activities, then there would be no sexual shame being taught.
You should also have no problems teaching about the "birds and the bees" and speaking the truth about sex to your children.

Believe me, and you should know from experience of your own youth that these kids today are learning about sex and it is from the streets and schools and television. But it is more fiction than fact. It is not based on Godly understanding. You are far better off allowing your children to see your family without clothing, shedding any fears and misunderstanding, than with clothing and ignorant.

God's spirit gets rid of any fears and replaces it with love. Since I started to study naturism in the light of Gods word, and started to practice it, not just on my own, but with my wife and others, I found that a lot of ignorance and fears went right out the window.

My mind has been relieved of a lot of garbage that has been filtered through it. Of course, that didn't happen without help. A lot of Bible study and prayer and continued prayer on a daily basis asking God to not only heal my body, (humans ask that a lot) but my mind and heart as well, which is far more important than my body as Jesus pointed out several times.
As a result, our bodies began to heal as well because of the natural physical healing it goes through when it is freed up from the hot, clammy, tight fitting, humid, germ ridden and bacteria growing man made skin we call clothing. God's clothing is so much better!

When we think about it, our fears today is just that, fears. When we look at the simple biblical truths that Jesus taught and live by them, then we should have no fears. There are a lot of myths that people assume are written in the bible. In fact people teach their children a lot of things that are totally unbiblical such as Santa Claus and the Easter bunny as truth. When they grow older and find out that their parents themselves lied to them (thou shall not lie) often, they decide to "look into this 'Jesus' thing too". That is much worse than seeing a fellow human being in the image of God in a positive light.

Cont....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont...

Now please keep in mind, I am NOT encouraging voyeurism, unwanted exposure and fondling or any such perverted actions especially by strangers.

Those actions are wrong and completely against Gods laws of love.

For that matter, Halloween is against Gods laws of tampering with evil spirits and witchcraft but that doesn't seem to bother the Christians any but the sight of a human being in Gods image does.

As I have already stated, I know there are a lot of child-molesters out there, but clothing the children has never stopped them.

Proper training in decency, love and not allowing them to grow up ignorant and call it "innocence" is more crucial in protecting these children.

One young man told me that when he has children, he would like for them to grow up as "innocent and naïve" as possible. I told him that was the worse thing he could do to them. Now of course they don't need to know all the gory details of life and grow up too quickly but an understanding of the differences between male and female and their roles would do more to help them grow up and stay out of trouble.

To see each other and their families nude under a family life situation, children in these families, (and they exist all over this country and world), are not "shocked" by seeing their moms and dads nude. It's normal for them and they are used to it. They think nothing of it. As a matter of fact, they wonder what all the excitement their peers are finding when they get a glimpse of a nude body. "So, what's the big deal?" they ask. Yeah, what is the big deal? Why are we so funny about our bodies? The more you cover up and hide, the more they want to seek it out and steal a glimpse. I know, I was once one of them. Now I don't.

Of course I still appreciate the sight of a naked human body because it is beautiful. "God don't make junk."

We don't hide someone's face because it is beautiful and sometimes sexy do we? Our hands are often used during sexual activities.

Do we hide them as well? No, of course not.

Does that cause us to not appreciate the sight of a beautiful face because we see it every day?

Do we not appreciate the sight of a beautiful sunset?

Well, sometimes we get very busy and forget those things, but we still don't hide it and call it shameful. But it's not the beauty, we say, it is because that penis hanging out there is ugly! O.K., do we hide the human face because it is ugly, or do we arrest someone because they have an ugly nose?

Maybe we try to hide our own faces behind makeup because of our concept of what is pretty (good) and what is ugly (evil). WOW! Does that sound familiar? OOPS! Here we go again!

So goes the endless cycle. Instead of loving each other and respecting each other, we judge, hide and force others to our own human standards instead of Gods.

Let's read a few of Gods scriptures:

Col.3:1-17; 2Cor 10:7; James 2:1-4; 2Tim 1-7; Rev. 19:8;

http://www.geocities.com/boydallen/naturism_modern_acceptance.html

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Check Americans's comments over nudity

http://www.babycenter.com/expert/baby/babydevelopment/6837.html?scid=mbtw_post27m:20050425:0:0:0

Liebling)) I'm disagree with Expert's view.

When you click "
* See all readers' comments then you will see 167 comments. I took and paste some of their comments to add here.

I think just like Myla and Kate (I didn't read any further). My parents were nude around us and we went to nude beaches (Europe) and so on. Yet I knew that nobody was allowed to "do" anything with me and I cover up when other people are or could be watching me. Having lived in two different societies I have to say that I feel more a sexual object here in the states where a lot of people cover up. In Europe I felt more like a human being - respected.

Liebling)) I was not surprised after read those comments because I was told by some of American's German wives often about the difference between Germany and USA. They said that they felt uncomfortable when they were in America because American children and point their fingers out on them when they lied naked or topless at their own property.
We don't blame American children for that but their parents because they teach their children like this.

My husband and I are not ashamed...partly because we are in awesome shape and because we are BOTH more well endowed than the average male and female. Our two children -our 6 year old son and our 9 year old daughter see us naked almost daily. Occasionally my daughter will take a shower with me as well as my son. Often during the summer my husband will only wear a t-shirt around the house and our children and fine with it. PS. my husband is a child psychologist.

LieblingJ)) my hubby and sons like to wear boxer shorts around in the house during summer time and also at our garden, too. Of course my children are naked in our garden when they were little and play garden shower/puddle pool. They wear swimming suit automaic when they have their friends around at our garden.

The more something is bad or forbidden (tabu) the more the human being is interested or fascinated by it. That doesn't just count for sex. Take alcohol and so on. In Europe you don't hear so much about bing drinking as here. Or take the birth rates among young people (teens).

I guess a lot of people will tell me to go back to where I came from

I agree with Rachel. My son is almost three and he sees mommy and daddy in the nude at times and never acts uncomfortable or says anything to us. I don't want him to feel embarrassed or ashamed if he is in the nude

Liebling)) True, it's same with my sons, too. They didn't pay their attention when they see us naked. They are proud of their bodies. They (12 and 9 years old) are also naked when they walk from their bedrooms to bathroom.

I am happy to see that there are so many people who have a comfortable and natural attitude to their bodies and their children. Maybe it is true that Americans are puritanical, but from what I have been reading many seem to have good common sense. I grew up in Norway where children all swim naked and spend a lot of the summer outside with few or no cloths on and they don't seem to have any problems when they grow up. I also find that Men and Women are more comfortable around each other there. Maybe e because they are not such mysteries. Either way. Nudity is natural.

Our children (ages 4, 7, 11) are so comfortable with their bodies that a poet friend wrote about the 'naked house' -- ours! Having said that, we don't pressure anyone to take their clothes off, or on! What we teach is respect for people, respect for people's bodies, for feelings, for privacy. Kids are smart, they know when things are appropriate and when they're not. What I notice that lots of people need a little help with is the learning respect part: kids and grownups. What shocks me most about adults is how many want to impose control over kids, in so many different ways. What I want my kids to learn from me is that I am going to help them learn how to make good judgments and how to respect themselves and others. Sometimes that means I have to make a decision for them right now, but I'm not going to fight them on every little detail, and certainly not going to try to impose a sense of shame or stupidity on them. So, if they feel like being naked at home, that's their decision! But they have to put on shorts, t-shirt, and shoes to go to the supermarket. By the way, it makes for a delightful home. Each of us wear clothing, or not, as we feel comfortable, and it all works out.

Liebling)) Yes, we teach our children to not judge everyone but respect. They do what they like because I want them feel free and comfortable.

A lots of people in different countries have vert different views on this subject, the advice from the expert seems pretty narrow to me. Where we live (Amsterdam), it is pretty common to see women topless at the beach, children's pool, etc. and very, very common for young children to swim naked. I think it is refreshingly open; Americans' tend to be overly conservative when it comes to covering up. I hope to raise a son who is more comfortable than I was taught to be with nudity.

Cont...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Cont...

I want my daughters to have good feelings about their bodies. I may not have the perfect body but I am happy with myself. By allowing them to see that their mother is not ashamed or uncomfortable with her naked body, I hope I'm sending the message that their bodies are just right the way they are too

My husband and I have two girls ages 4 and 3 years old and neither of them seems to be embarrassed by our nudity

Liebling)) True

If we cover up in front of our children, then they will certainly feel embarrassed if they accidentally see us naked, and that nudity is wrong. If we don't make a big deal about it, but teach that some things are ok at home in front of the family that are not acceptable in public, then how can they be embarrassed?

I actually asked my therapist this very question. Although I agree that American's seem to be a bit uptight about nudity, I don't think that young children should be exposed to it. Psychologically it can be harmful to young children. Many small children get scared or confused, even if you're trying to be open with them and help them to be secure with their bodies. There comes an age when children naturally seek out these types of things and its better for them to come across it because they were looking for it, not because mom and dad dangled it in their faces. Of course that's not to say if your little one walks in on you that you should make a big deal and cover up quickly. This is the advice my therapist gave me and I'm following it because I grew up afraid and confused about my body from seeing adults naked around me. Every child is different and you just never know if something like this could damage it psychologically.

Our 3 yr old daughter also asked why daddy had a "tail" when she accidentally walked in on him dressing. He doesn't feel comfortable being naked in front of her and that is fine. She likes being naked, I don't like to wear clothes either and I don't see anything wrong with that. We always dress appropriately in public but at home I don't have a problem with nudity at all. We still take showers together, she runs around the house in panties all day, and everything is fine. I agree that Americans are way too uptight about nudity and sexuality. We need to lighten up!

I totally disagree with the so-called experts on this one. I know a lot of 2 and three year olds in my line of work (over the past 10 years) and have NEVER known one of them to be at all concerned with nudity. At that age they can be taught to be embarrassed or to be modest, but it doesn't just develop when they are 2 or 3. Also, teaching your child not to be naked, or see parents naked, does not prevent child molestation in the least. Teaching your child that no one can touch their body and privates without their permission is a much better approach...then elaborate from there. Predators don't need to see a naked child to be successful. They are very clever, but you can make your child aware of how to prevent such situations without scaring them. Let them know they own their beautiful body, and no one else is entitled to touch it in certain places (except for diaper change, etc.). I agree with so many comments.... lighten up people on the nudity.

I have to applaud the first two comments you put on the main page! Bravo to both of you, even though you seem to be embarrassed by your name, (didn't understand that) for saying exactly the truth. If you are taught to be ashamed, you will be, if you're taught that the body itself, whether male or female is beautiful no matter what we look like, you will grow into adulthood knowing that as the truth. Way too many people put too much emphasis on trying to be "PC" and they end up screwing up their children for life!! Children only learn what they see every day. We would probably have lower statistics of rape and sexual abuse if people practiced openness and honesty about their bodies with their children. Kind of makes ya think, huh?

I agree with Anonymous and Rachel. We send our children mixed messages. Instead of teaching them to be proud of their bodies and that everyone is essentially the same, we teach them that there are parts of their bodies that are "shameful" and that they should be embarrassed. And yes, Americans are prudish . . .and confused!

How sad that even the so-called experts are telling us that our children will become embarrassed about nudity around age 2. It's completely a cultural issue - Americans way too prudish about nudity -, which is being passed down the generations. Loosen up everybody and let your children feel free too!

Liebling)) I pasted the interesting comment of Americans's view to add here. I am agree most of them.

http://www.babycenter.com/expert/baby/babydevelopment/6837.html?scid=mbtw_post27m:20050425:0:0:0

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Good thread there Liebling.

I had took a bath with my boys with they were younger. They don't really pay much attention to my boobies or anything. Now that my oldest son is grown-up he takes his own shower, But at times my 5 years old would take a bath with me or he would likely take one on his own when I am in the bathroom watching him, to avoid drowning...


I have changed my clothes in front of my boys, when they walked in my bedroom. They are not ashamed or embarrassed and say "omg I am leaving."
They know I am their mother and I gave birth to both of them.

Yes, it's same with my sons, too.

It doesn't bother them when they saw us naked. It doesn't also bother them when I walk in their bedrooms while they change their clothes.

Yes, I took bath with them when they are little. Now they take bath or shower alone. The bathroom door stay unlock when we take bath or shower.

With toilet is a different. They knows that I don't like them to use their business (smelly ) while I take a shower/bath but go to downstair to have their business.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Time will come when boys start to get uncomfy then I will know.

Yes, I will respect my sons if they want their bodies privacy when the puberty time comes but my sons (12 and 9 years old) are still not shame of their bodies when they walk from their bedroom to bathroom.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I don't see any good reason for letting children older than babies seeing their parents' naked bodies. What's the point? Everyone should be entitled to privacy.

There is nothing wrong with modesty. Society has too much of the attitude of "letting it all hang out," (even when the "it" that is "hanging out" is not very attractive).

See link with explanation in my previous post. It's worth to read everything where I pasted and add here in my previous post.

"Modern Day Body Acceptance "

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I'm sorry if this is a little bit off topic.....

awwww It's not off topic but related to "nudity"....

Come and share your interesting posts about nudity here...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

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