Is it ever ok for kids NOT to use ASL?

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Daredevel7 said:
Of course it is more effective. ASL works for pretty much every deaf child in terms of language development. The only thing I'm against is the idea that ASL has absolutely no consequence for someone who has natural lipreading abilities or can hear well enough to repeat what the speaker says. For those kids, they can learn ENGLISH and practice speaking/lipreading at the same time. They can learn ASL all they want later to take advantage of social gatherings, services, what have you.

But of course, apparently to some people, this type of ability is far and few in between, plus if they even have that ability "They will develop that ANYWAY" with ASL. When I see someone saying "I'd rather not talk", sometimes I wonder if its because they haven't had any practice or enough practice to feel comfortable to speak, not because they don't have the ability.

If you wanna look at Deaf education based on purely statistics, then the clear winner is most likely ASL as L1, but I will never be convinced that ASL first is the best idea for every single HoH/deaf person.
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Nothing is 100% for all but it's best for majority. Again - you are free to choose whatever you think is the best for your child. We're simply voicing our concern again and again and again because it's very important that many people SHOULD NOT treat hoh/CI/deaf as nearly-functional hearing person. Sure some deaf can do oral well, some can lipread well, some can ----- well.... either way - all things are same.... they all have one same drawback - they will never be anywhere close to hearing person. They will all say the same thing - "say again? what? I can't understand you" for rest of their life.
 
Jiro said:
Nothing is 100% for all but it's best for majority. Again - you are free to choose whatever you think is the best for your child. We're simply voicing our concern again and again and again because it's very important that many people SHOULD NOT treat hoh/CI/deaf as nearly-functional hearing person. Sure some deaf can do oral well, some can lipread well, some can ----- well.... either way - all things are same.... they all have one same drawback - they will never be anywhere close to hearing person. They will all say the same thing - "say again? what? I can't understand you" for rest of their life.
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Exactly. And again with the myth of ASL interfering with spoken language skills. This is a myth that seems to persist despite the fact that it has been disproven time and time and time again. It has also been shown time and time and time again that limiting langauge to oral only for the deaf child is the single most frequent cause of language delays, inability to develop language skills to native fluency, literacy and reading comprehension problems. Quite simply, ASL certainly can do no harm, and most likely will provide great benefit. Oral only environments create problems that an individual must spend a lifetime remediating. I guess it just comes down to how much you are willing to risk on your child's behalf for the sake of oral only.

I need to make it clear at this point, that the difficulties with language and literacy are not inherent, in any way, to the physical condition of being deaf. They are the direct result of decisions made for the deaf, rather than by the deaf.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Of course it is more effective. ASL works for pretty much every deaf child in terms of language development. The only thing I'm against is the idea that ASL has absolutely no consequence for someone who has natural lipreading abilities or can hear well enough to repeat what the speaker says. For those kids, they can learn ENGLISH and practice speaking/lipreading at the same time. They can learn ASL all they want later to take advantage of social gatherings, services, what have you.

But of course, apparently to some people, this type of ability is far and few in between, plus if they even have that ability "They will develop that ANYWAY" with ASL. When I see someone saying "I'd rather not talk", sometimes I wonder if its because they haven't had any practice or enough practice to feel comfortable to speak, not because they don't have the ability.

If you wanna look at Deaf education based on purely statistics, then the clear winner is most likely ASL as L1, but I will never be convinced that ASL first is the best idea for every single HoH/deaf person.
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It has been disproven through research that ASL doesnt impede one's ability to develop oral skills. If that was true then all deaf children who went to deaf schools would have no oral skills whatsover.

U would be amazed at the numbers out in the Deaf community.
 
jillio said:
Don't have a date for you exactly, but the push to state standards has been going on for about 6 years now.
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Do you know which states don't have it? Is there a link on this? Some states probably don't have it as they closed the only school for the deaf.
 
I over read this issue about the parents' right or child's right due the communication if the ASL is require even that kid is hearing, hoh or Deaf. Myself Deaf and I think IT IS REQUIRE... why??

I raise it is not because we raise the different... We raise the trouble from hearing and by doctor and so on... They gave parent when parent seek for advice about what to do with the Hearing or the Deaf who is Deaf or Hearing parents. I believe it is about TOTAL communication and have relationship bond the child to grow become great or whatever turn out surprise.

I think that ASL is require, Oral skill is require by what I see post. I found it rude...

Many time, I social with kids when I was younger... I can hear the words aren't clear due they couldn't correct themselves due no hearing aids. I don't find that CI is 100 percent resolution for all that...

I went to mainstream with oral or deaf program and school for the deaf. I found that mainstream that focus on Oral program is failure... Reason.. no expression and strange to see building their own world of Oral World as such as Deaf community to try welcome to Oral but no total communication such as no gesture...

I met person who is 100 percents profound from whole life and skill communication is Oral. I am impress because people could understand her but she can't do math, reading and so on. Reason; focus on oral training...

It is so pointless to focus on one thing.

I believe all language is important that apply to educate and continue learning. Again...

I agreed with shel90; however, think that oral is primary or non-asl? No.. I think ASL or Sign Language is important to us.. Why? What if one day become profound and haven't training by lip reading.. not able understand anything with strange sound of CI or hearing aids... Sign Language that we had trained person become interpreter and able use communication...

So again... I hate to see people when there are no communication or the total language that pervent being learn from school or to become something or communicate with parent... It hard for me swallow and not look at them like they are not there. What they did get and got nothing...

We should blame the socialization by whoever research and should have mix research to have proof instead think.. "normal" is best... who is normal? I see Hearing people wear glasses.. are they normal.. no.. I see people who is short and tall and fat... is that normal? no... No one is Normal... We are human..
 
Buffalo said:
Do you know which states don't have it? Is there a link on this? Some states probably don't have it as they closed the only school for the deaf.
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Not off hand, but I'll see what I can come up with for you. I do know that your Alma Mater adheres to state standards, as does OSD.
 
zerodog said:
I over read this issue about the parents' right or child's right due the communication if the ASL is require even that kid is hearing, hoh or Deaf. Myself Deaf and I think IT IS REQUIRE... why??

I raise it is not because we raise the different... We raise the trouble from hearing and by doctor and so on... They gave parent when parent seek for advice about what to do with the Hearing or the Deaf who is Deaf or Hearing parents. I believe it is about TOTAL communication and have relationship bond the child to grow become great or whatever turn out surprise.

I think that ASL is require, Oral skill is require by what I see post. I found it rude...

Many time, I social with kids when I was younger... I can hear the words aren't clear due they couldn't correct themselves due no hearing aids. I don't find that CI is 100 percent resolution for all that...

I went to mainstream with oral or deaf program and school for the deaf. I found that mainstream that focus on Oral program is failure... Reason.. no expression and strange to see building their own world of Oral World as such as Deaf community to try welcome to Oral but no total communication such as no gesture...

I met person who is 100 percents profound from whole life and skill communication is Oral. I am impress because people could understand her but she can't do math, reading and so on. Reason; focus on oral training...

It is so pointless to focus on one thing.

I believe all language is important that apply to educate and continue learning. Again...

I agreed with shel90; however, think that oral is primary or non-asl? No.. I think ASL or Sign Language is important to us.. Why? What if one day become profound and haven't training by lip reading.. not able understand anything with strange sound of CI or hearing aids... Sign Language that we had trained person become interpreter and able use communication...

So again... I hate to see people when there are no communication or the total language that pervent being learn from school or to become something or communicate with parent... It hard for me swallow and not look at them like they are not there. What they did get and got nothing...

We should blame the socialization by whoever research and should have mix research to have proof instead think.. "normal" is best... who is normal? I see Hearing people wear glasses.. are they normal.. no.. I see people who is short and tall and fat... is that normal? no... No one is Normal... We are human..
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:gpost:
 
I want add note about the state standard, they are working on that to closing and make resolution due Deaf Children has increase each year.

They are looking and compare... what interesting is.. they are think of job to eliminate the homeless or unemployed rate. They may try push fund to increase interpreter employee for school to able have job and make food on table and so on.

I think that make sense because the Deaf School costs more than mainstream... So it will be interesting to become match standard educated between Hearing and Deaf mean Deaf Ed should be nervous about that part to met the requirement...

It will interesting to see how mainstream change course to correction issue and be INTERESTING is Deaf Employee at Deaf school will transfer to Public system will expose to Hearing community...
 
faire_jour said:
Is there ever a situation in which it is ok for a child with a hearing loss NOT to be given ASL?
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If the child is deaf or hard of hearing they have every right by law to communicate using ASL. Its only in situations where written language is needed or required that a deaf or hard of hearing child should be expected to communicate using a language other then ASL.
 
shel90 said:
It has been disproven through research that ASL doesnt impede one's ability to develop oral skills. If that was true then all deaf children who went to deaf schools would have no oral skills whatsover.

U would be amazed at the numbers out in the Deaf community.
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As I recall, when I first went to VSDB, my Dad told me that he didn't want me to lose my speech and end up only signing like some of the deaf kids. He was quite concerned about the effect it'd have on my speech. His fears proved groundless.

It drives me crazy when some hearing stranger gushes over my speech when he's around because when we go home, I have to hear crap about how my mother's hard work with my speech paid off for hours. SCREAM.
 
faire_jour said:
And I do. I was a stay at home mom until she started Kindergarten. I am merely saying that learning ASL and being involved in the Deaf community takes a small percentage of the effort that AV does. Speech and oral takes real time and work. The rest didn't. I certified at state level for interpreting when she was 4. That means it took 2 years to be "fluent", of course, I still learn more everyday and will never stop gain more skill. But really, it was nothing compared to what I have to do every single day to help her learn spoken language. Do not think that oral parents choose it because it is easier than ASL.
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Maybe AVT is harder for the parents then BSL.
It's even harder for the Deaf kids though. So This is a big reason why the kids should NEVER be deprived of ASL.

Just because a certain method is harder doesn't mean it's better.
 
dreama said:
Maybe AVT is harder for the parents then BSL.
It's even harder for the Deaf kids though. So This is a big reason why the kids should NEVER be deprived of ASL.

Just because a certain method is harder doesn't mean it's better.
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:gpost:
 
Daredevel7 said:
But...... can a native ASL child even talk to a "stranger in a real world"? If she gets lost, can she even say her own name? If a deaf 4 year old child can speak her own name...... I would think she'd do better than a native ASL child who just signs.
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She doesn't have to say anything. She can carry a note pad with her or a mobile phone and comunicate with hearing world with that.
 
chris' mom said:
not sure if this is on topic or not. But I have question to ask. Am I wrong in keeping my child in his normal public school, with his HA and FM system along with Speech therapy and an interpeter? His teacher and I have currently talked and reliezed that he's better at learning signs and then picking up the verbal. We all use sign and we all use verbal. I am also signed up to take a Signing class in APril
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It is great that you sign with your child. Do you have a deaf club near where you live? Maybe you could take him there too so he can get to meet and learn more fluent sign language there too?
 
dreama said:
She doesn't have to say anything. She can carry a note pad with her or a mobile phone and comunicate with hearing world with that

.
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Every one of my children and grandchildren could dial our house by the time they were 3 years old.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Is the above statement common? Can a deaf one truly learn how to do ASL and speaking at the same time? If so, how common is it?

.
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A better question is where. In the U.S. anyone who speaks a second language is considered defective. So go to a country where it is normal to be multilingual, such as India, and check the situation out there.

Some of those outlaying areas have no schools -- Yet the children can speak 3 or 4 languages.
 
Daredevil and fair_jour.......I think you guys don't quite understandn that the percentage of ASL only kids is quite small. Most kids do get intensive speech training.It's just like the way the percentage of monolingal Spanish/French whatever speakers in the US is very small.
The debate seems to be more over which language should be a dhh kid's first language. Yes, a kid who has some oral skills definitly has an advantage over a kid who doesn't......but that doesn't mean that oral skills are inherently "better" then ASL. It's simply that it's a good survival tool. Especially in a country where English is the dominant language. However just b/c a kid is educated orally, it doesn't mean that they will be able to master oral skills. Make sense?
And Daredevil, I agree with you. I think that part of the reason why Deaf ed isn't too popular is b/c they tend to believe the AG Bell propaganda that oral skills create complete and total equality or access to a better education.
Quite frankley, that's bullshit. Yes, there are some superstars out there who do really well in the mainstream, but there have always been superstars. It doesn't mean that the majority of kids don't struggle....especially socially. I mean social issues are enough of a concern so that it's a pereniall topic at confenrences and newsletters.
 
jillio said:
When Bi-Bi was the norm for deaf education, there was no lack of Deaf teachers. You can thank the oral movement for removing deaf individuals from the field of education.

The majoroity of deaf schools now adhere to state standards, and therefore have the same standards as the public school system.
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But my daughter is in a bi-bi school. It is considered very good. There are a total of 3 children who can speak more than Miss Kat can, and they are simply transfers from when the TC program merged with bi-bi.( I mention speech because most claim that being in a voice off enviroment will not effect spoken language development. Also, at our last IEP meeting EVERY professional disagreed with this statement, including the program director who is Deaf, the SLP for the bi-bi school, and her classroom teacher (of the Deaf))
We also have a HUGE problem with teaching the kids to read. I would say 85% of the kids have been in the program since pre-k and 75% have Deaf parents. The kids are still having trouble with reading. I asked the program director about the methodology and she said "Sight words and memorization". I said "you think that you can memorize every word in the English language?". She said "Yes. I hate phonics."
And what about early writing? There is a developmental step where children should be trying to write words and sentences with made up spelling. NONE of the children in my daughter's class can do that, because none of them have the ability to "guess" what the letters in the word will be because they don't have phonetic awareness.
 
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