"In-between"

[deafdyke]

My feelings aren't hurt.
I just think that attacking others based on their degree of hearing loss is counterproductive especially since some of the more vocal people have mild to moderate hearing loss but judge parents who have deaf children for their choices.

ecp, she is not even HOH. Not even a unilateral loss. She is coming at this from a hearing perspective. She has perfect hearing...........and ecp, the degree of loss isn't that big of a deal......you have to understand that kids who grew up with HOH losses, experience the exact same thing that deafer kids who are being raised under a HOH style are experiencing. THAT is what they are commenting on. If audilogically HOH as kids people don't feel like they fit in, or they experienced a lot of downsides from it....I think they have the right to speak up and bring up the downsides. (and IMHO, they get accused of attacking or criciticizing when they're just bringing up very legitimate issues and concerns)

 

[NitroHonda]

WHAT THE FUCK? Sorry dear but I do care. Deaf Schools DO have the SAME curriculm as is offered in the hearing schools. Even the mentally disabled kids do get functional academics at least. Functional academics = at least 3rd/fourth grade level. It's not a HIGH level, no. But it's at least basic literacy. You do know that's its not that unusual for kids with low incidence disabilities to experience falling through the cracks in *gasp* THE FABLED mainstream?!?!?!?! I know a lot of deaf kids who graduated PUBLIC SCHOOL who can't even write a coherent sentance! Besides, there are PLENTY of hearing (and non disabled people) who attend regular schools who can't even read or write a coherent sentence. If public schools can't educate hearing kids, then how can they educate deaf kids? It's been shown time and time again. The reason why Deaf Schools have such a crappy reputuation, isn't b/c they offer second grade level curriculm...but b/c a lot of the students are transfers from the mainstream. There ARE quite a few Deaf school kids who are on par with hearing kids.....quite a few of the larger Deaf Schools have sent kids to competive colleges like Princeton, University of Maryland, the Texas Schools and so on.

Even TEACHING at top tier universities. Boston University to name one. May you rest in peace, Mark Gobble.

 

[deafdyke]

It matters a LOT. Studies and what not are great, but things evolve and change over time. You need to see things in real life on and ongoing and current basis to see . Just because SOME kids don't do well in the mainstream or most kids didn't do well in the mainstream 20-30 yrs ago, doesn't mean that history will always repeat themselves and ALL kids are doomed to that same fate.

Oceanbreeze, my friends who teach at Deaf Schools and who teach in the mainstream all say they are seeing the exact same stuff they saw 20 years ago. The ONLY difference between today and 20 years ago is that more audilogically deaf kids are functionally HOH. HOH kids deal with the exact same issues that oral deaf kids do. Even 30% of HOH kids struggle academicly.

 

[deafdyke]

NOT always, DD. That's what you are missing here. The girl I know of is NOT completely voice off, but she isn't always exclusively in the hearing world, either. She has the best of BOTH. She was raised with ASL and English. She is fluent in both and uses both when the need arises. Her educational needs are being met in the mainstream. She goes to a mainstream school, but has both hearing and deaf children for friends. She goes to a Deaf church with her parents (who, yes, ARE hearing). They have raised her to be equipped to communicate with both the hearing and the deaf. In case you're wondering, yes, she has a CI. She's bimodal.

I have known this child personally since she was 5 yrs old. She is now 11.5 years old. The girl went to school with my niece and she taught a few signs to her. My niece came home from school and taught ME those same signs.

One size does not fit all. I get that. But, do YOU? You propose there be a continuum. Well, that means advocating for both. Have you ever considered the individual needs of a SPECIFIC child, or do you just want to lump them altogether, and throw them ALL in a D/hh environment; especially if the are doing WELL where they are? Just because someone is deaf or Hoh doesn't mean that they should all be lumped in one group and sent to a school based solely because one has a hearing loss.

I think the best advice to give a parent of a D/HH child is for that parent to do his her her OWN investigating and decide for himself or herself what the best placement for that child is. As long as the child has both ASL and English, where they are being taught academics because secondary. The child will thrive with both. The child may or may NOT thrive if they are limited to one or the other.

WHAT the fuck OB?!?!??!?! Stop acting like I'm Sweetmind or another extremist. How do you know that this girl didn't attend a deaf school early on or didn't attend a dhh program early on?
You're missing that the reason I am advocating for Deaf School placement in this case is so that the child can have a good base of a few years of preschool/kindergarten/first grade, so she can have a solid base for mainstreaming. I'm not saying " total and complete" separate education. Stop seeing things as totally black and white. The quality of the early childhood programming for a dhh child is most likely going to be FAR better then can be found in an inclusive setting, where they have little to no experience with dhh children.
heck, if there was a regional dhh program available, I would encourage the OP to look into that. But there isn't. And it sounds like the local programs are going to try to get away with only providing a minimal accomondations approach.

 

[deafdyke]

I can't leave them be. If one sees the light... then I will have succeeded. I know for sure that the PIP and ECE programs at TSD have really jumped in numbers over the past 5 years. It's gotten big enough to where they have several classrooms for the fifth graders. When my son first started attending, there were about 60 kids in the elementary department. Now there's a tad over 150 (confirmed by elem Principal just a few mins ago). Parents are starting to wise up and not allow these "rejects" skew the numbers anymore. It's definitely good times now.

YAY..........parents are realizing the value of a Deaf School, and Deaf School early ON!!!!!! That is AMAZING! I actually think part of it might be that parents are frustrated as hell with dealing with mainstream inclusion schools. Wanna know something? I know parents of kids with mild but obvious nereological issues (ie like mild but obvious CP) Their kids are doggy paddling in the mainstream, and they are sick of dealing with the games the IEP team at a mainstream school plays. Guess what? They have told me if their kid was dhh, they'd attend a Deaf School!
I do not think that ALL dhh kids need to attend a Deaf School or program...BUT I do think that the overwhelming majority of them would benefit strongly from attending at least a dhh program/magnet school.
Heck, with a dhh program/magnet school, dhh kids could get the best of both worlds,( staff and teachers who are very familiar with how to teach dhh kids, mainstream curriculum, interaction with the hearing and deaf worlds etc) and not fall victim to the "specialized classrooms are "segregated" thinking with an inclusion approach. I say this b/c I actually interact and talk with current dhh students.
Their experience is identical to what I went through, what a HOH kid in the 60's and 70's went through and so on. Kids are falling through the cracks too much. You know, I have a couple of dhh young adults as friends, who have told me that they wish they'd failed a couple of classes so that they could have gotten sent to deaf school or dhh program. These were kids who appeared to be doing well......
I know a couple of other deaf schools that have increased enrollment lately too......Minnisota School for the Deaf is actually at capitcity for residential placement......

 

[deafdyke]

That is awesome. I have heard that it is a wonderful school. I am all for good schools!

Txgolfer, I am too.......and the thing is, I think that if Deaf School/ dhh programs/magnet schools were tweaked a bit they would be producing a lot more success stories.
I think we need to tweak the law when it comes to low incidence special ed, and instead of seeing Deaf or blind or other state specialized schools, (some states still have schools for kids with severe physical disabilities. Like this one: MHS website) as a last resort placement, use them to work in tandem with the public school system.

 

[deafdyke]

I think it's more of that people are making decisions based on things that they do not understand. It's getting better though. Folks are turning around and moving near their schools like we did. Our elementary numbers tripled over the course of about five years. Tripled! People are understanding better and actually GIVING IT A TRY.

No doubt everybody wants the best for their child. Nobody has indicated otherwise. It's a collective effort.

Are you seeing that hearing parents are being a bit more openminded as to placement at Deaf School? And yes, that's mindblowing that nowadays, parents are moving near STATE deaf Schools! Never would have seen that even ten years ago! Holy cow..........I wonder what triggered the change?...and aren't people coming from other states too? I know someone on this forum (hearing) who moved to Florida so that their kid (who had been mainstreamed etc) could attend FSDB.....I remember the mom was raving about how awesome the difference was......

 

[NitroHonda]

Are you seeing that hearing parents are being a bit more openminded as to placement at Deaf School? And yes, that's mindblowing that nowadays, parents are moving near STATE deaf Schools! Never would have seen that even ten years ago! Holy cow..........I wonder what triggered the change?...and aren't people coming from other states too? I know someone on this forum (hearing) who moved to Florida so that their kid (who had been mainstreamed etc) could attend FSDB.....I remember the mom was raving about how awesome the difference was......

They are. We have two in my son's class who moved from out of state, most notably New Jersey. Also several moved from Indiana and that's saying a lot because ISD actually has a GREAT program themselves. We currently car pool with an out-of-state couple who I continue to be floored as to how much effort they put into learning sign language and working with their special needs kid (in a different grade level than my son). He's a bit multi-handicapped but the parents don't really see it that way and treat him no different. It truly is amazing to see the diversity come together and ultimately I can't wait for the results to show that these 150+ kids are going to make something of their lives and FINALLY accurately bolster these numbers that parents like OB or TXgolfer stand behind.

Things are changing fast for sure.

 

[TXgolfer]

Are you seeing that hearing parents are being a bit more openminded as to placement at Deaf School? And yes, that's mindblowing that nowadays, parents are moving near STATE deaf Schools! Never would have seen that even ten years ago! Holy cow..........I wonder what triggered the change?...and aren't people coming from other states too? I know someone on this forum (hearing) who moved to Florida so that their kid (who had been mainstreamed etc) could attend FSDB.....I remember the mom was raving about how awesome the difference was......

Most hearing parents are open minded and want the best for their kids. Everyone who agrees with me in this thread has been open minded as well.

The statistics for FSDB are dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. My only hope is that parents will weigh all of their options carefully before making a choice.

 

[deafdyke]

They are. We have two in my son's class who moved from out of state, most notably New Jersey. Also several moved from Indiana and that's saying a lot because ISD actually has a GREAT program themselves. We currently car pool with an out-of-state couple who I continue to be floored as to how much effort they put into learning sign language and working with their special needs kid (in a different grade level than my son). He's a bit multi-handicapped but the parents don't really see it that way and treat him no different. It truly is amazing to see the diversity come together and ultimately I can't wait for the results to show that these 150+ kids are going to make something of their lives and FINALLY accurately bolster these numbers that parents like OB or TXgolfer stand behind.

Things are changing fast for sure.

New Jersey? Wow.........that's a huge contintum of placement state! Like it's got a lot of Dhh ed programs like Bruce Street School for the Deaf and HOH, the Lake Shore Drive program, and the state Deaf School.....also thought it has a lot of regional dhh programs too.....and gosh, things ARE changing. Do you remember back in the 80's and 90's when it wasn't that unusual for parents to move to Northampton so their kid could attend Clarke? You would rarely see a parent doing that so that their kid could attend state/Signing deaf school (although I do know someone who did move to a city, so her son could attend a Signing Deaf School)
It's funny you mention that your friend's son is multihandicapped.....I see a lot of dhh kids in the mainstream being treated like they're multihandicapped, both educationally and socially. The major trouble with the mainstream is that if a kid doesn't respond well to a minimal accomondations approach, they get treated like they're multihandicapped/severely LD. One wonders how much they could achieve if they transferred to a Deaf School/dhh program/magnet school. Also wonder how many of the kids in the mainstream who are labeled as mild multihandicapped might just be suffering from educational neglect.

 

[deafdyke]

Most hearing parents are open minded and want the best for their kids. Everyone who agrees with me in this thread has been open minded as well.

The statistics for FSDB are dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. My only hope is that parents will weigh all of their options carefully before making a choice.

I hate saying this, but I think a lot of hearing parents outrightly reject a specialized placement b/c again of what you are doing. They're looking at numbers and being freaked out without realizing that a lot of the low achievement levels are due to a multitude of reasons and factors.
I do agree that the stats for FSDB aren't great........but then again as I said at the larger deaf schools, there's usually a strong number of kids who started out there from preschool who tend to score very well and do well academicly. You're also assuming that just b/c one option sucks, the other option is better. It's been the norm to mainstream dhh kids for decades. There are 40 year olds who have been mainstreamed. Yet has it increased academic or life achievement? I do think that a good compromise is a mainstream regional dhh program....and I do think MANY kids can fit in very well in such a program.
I do think that the Deaf Schools need to improve a lot....BUT again public schools can and do suck for hearing kids.

 

[TXgolfer]

I hate saying this, but I think a lot of hearing parents outrightly reject a specialized placement b/c again of what you are doing. They're looking at numbers and being freaked out without realizing that a lot of the low achievement levels are due to a multitude of reasons and factors.
I do agree that the stats for FSDB aren't great........but then again as I said at the larger deaf schools, there's usually a strong number of kids who started out there from preschool who tend to score very well and do well academicly. You're also assuming that just b/c one option sucks, the other option is better. It's been the norm to mainstream dhh kids for decades. There are 40 year olds who have been mainstreamed. Yet has it increased academic or life achievement? I do think that a good compromise is a mainstream regional dhh program....and I do think MANY kids can fit in very well in such a program.
I do think that the Deaf Schools need to improve a lot....BUT again public schools can and do suck for hearing kids.

That is why parents should do their research and choose carefully.

 

[deafdyke]

I do think that the OP needs to check things out.....definitely talk to a student who has been there since preschool etc.
Thing is....in this case where educational placement is "either or" (either public school or deaf school, no other programs) AND the child is early childhood age, I think that the Deaf School would be a GREAT choice.
I know parents of HOH students who have taken advantage of early childhood programming for their kids..... (Kansas School for the Deaf....very well respected, WPSD and even a school that has a high percentage of multihandicapped children, Montana School for the Deaf and Blind) and they ALL rave about how awesome the early childhood programming is. All of the HOH kids spent a few years in preschool/kindergarten and then transferred to a local school. One of them is in a dhh program, the other is currently in the program. But the point is, that although the school itself may have sucked in terms of test scores, it still had a very very good early childhood program. Most Deaf Schools tend to have outstanding (ie can't be replicated in an inclusive mainstream environment) early childhood. If kids get the training and education early on, then they won't transfer after struggling in the mainstream. Make sense now?

 

[Oceanbreeze]

WHAT THE FUCK? Sorry dear but I do care. Deaf Schools DO have the SAME curriculm as is offered in the hearing schools. Even the mentally disabled kids do get functional academics at least. Functional academics = at least 3rd/fourth grade level. It's not a HIGH level, no. But it's at least basic literacy. You do know that's its not that unusual for kids with low incidence disabilities to experience falling through the cracks in *gasp* THE FABLED mainstream?!?!?!?! I know a lot of deaf kids who graduated PUBLIC SCHOOL who can't even write a coherent sentance! Besides, there are PLENTY of hearing (and non disabled people) who attend regular schools who can't even read or write a coherent sentence. If public schools can't educate hearing kids, then how can they educate deaf kids? It's been shown time and time again. The reason why Deaf Schools have such a crappy reputuation, isn't b/c they offer second grade level curriculm...but b/c a lot of the students are transfers from the mainstream. There ARE quite a few Deaf school kids who are on par with hearing kids.....quite a few of the larger Deaf Schools have sent kids to competive colleges like Princeton, University of Maryland, the Texas Schools and so on.

Since when does having a 3rd or fourth grade education cut it? It doesn't. That's for ANY school, btw. In today's world, one must possess a high school diploma or equivalancy to even get a job. In a lot of places, if you have less than a bachelor's degree, you're screwed. So, yeah, the basics sure do go a long way. :roll:

 

[Oceanbreeze]

On the other hand, you do have to understand that the majority of kids at Deaf Schools transferred there from other programs. Not to mention that you do need to compare those listings to OTHER special ed students, rather then regular ed. Mainstream special ed tends to be rather low achieving as well.
Besides, even if the elementary school test scores are kinda not exactly the best, JadeSkye can STILL send her daughter to FSDB for preschool/kindergarten and maybe even first grade to give her a good foundation for mainstreaming. Heck, generally at the larger Deaf Schools there are usually a substational subpopulation of strongly academic kids...heck even at the dhh schools that mostly serve mentally disabled kids, you'll see some kids who are strongly academic.

Where do you get that? If you can't compare to regular ed, it does no good! You have to have a standard of excellence. One can't compare a school to one that is mediocre or worse. That's like saying, "Well, they both suck, but this school over here is closer to me, so I guess I'll enroll Jr. here". Huh?

ANY school that has a subpar academic record should be automatically tossed out for consideration.

 

[TXgolfer]

I do think that the OP needs to check things out.....definitely talk to a student who has been there since preschool etc.
Thing is....in this case where educational placement is "either or" (either public school or deaf school, no other programs) AND the child is early childhood age, I think that the Deaf School would be a GREAT choice.
I know parents of HOH students who have taken advantage of early childhood programming for their kids..... (Kansas School for the Deaf....very well respected, WPSD and even a school that has a high percentage of multihandicapped children, Montana School for the Deaf and Blind) and they ALL rave about how awesome the early childhood programming is. All of the HOH kids spent a few years in preschool/kindergarten and then transferred to a local school. One of them is in a dhh program, the other is currently in the program. But the point is, that although the school itself may have sucked in terms of test scores, it still had a very very good early childhood program. Most Deaf Schools tend to have outstanding (ie can't be replicated in an inclusive mainstream environment) early childhood. If kids get the training and education early on, then they won't transfer after struggling in the mainstream. Make sense now?

I totally disagree. A proactive parent can find many opportunities for giving their kids the basics. There is no justification for putting a child in an underachieving school. Parents should judge their school choices based on the merits. If the deaf school has had good results, give them a try. If not, don't. It is really that simple. I think it does a parent a huge injustice to be given such generalities.

 

[AlleyCat]

WHAT THE FUCK? Sorry dear but I do care. Deaf Schools DO have the SAME curriculm as is offered in the hearing schools. Even the mentally disabled kids do get functional academics at least. Functional academics = at least 3rd/fourth grade level. It's not a HIGH level, no. But it's at least basic literacy. You do know that's its not that unusual for kids with low incidence disabilities to experience falling through the cracks in *gasp* THE FABLED mainstream?!?!?!?! I know a lot of deaf kids who graduated PUBLIC SCHOOL who can't even write a coherent sentance! Besides, there are PLENTY of hearing (and non disabled people) who attend regular schools who can't even read or write a coherent sentence. If public schools can't educate hearing kids, then how can they educate deaf kids? It's been shown time and time again. The reason why Deaf Schools have such a crappy reputuation, isn't b/c they offer second grade level curriculm...but b/c a lot of the students are transfers from the mainstream. There ARE quite a few Deaf school kids who are on par with hearing kids.....quite a few of the larger Deaf Schools have sent kids to competive colleges like Princeton, University of Maryland, the Texas Schools and so on.

Since when does having a 3rd or fourth grade education cut it? It doesn't. That's for ANY school, btw. In today's world, one must possess a high school diploma or equivalancy to even get a job. In a lot of places, if you have less than a bachelor's degree, you're screwed. So, yeah, the basics sure do go a long way. :roll:

DD's post said "Even the mentally disabled kids do get functional academics at least. Functional academics = at least 3rd/fourth grade level."

For some mentally disabled kids, that is all they can achieve.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

DD's post said "Even the mentally disabled kids do get functional academics at least. Functional academics = at least 3rd/fourth grade level."

For some mentally disabled kids, that is all they can achieve.

Which is the minority. The majority of students should be able to compete with typically hearing people. If the school can't provide that, then the parents NEEDS to look elsewhere!

As for mentally disabled children, I agree with you. For those children, a self contained environment is best, but would you rather have your child in a school that has just as much of a rigorous academic standard then a typical school or one that is subpar. I think you'd want that child in a school where he or she can perform to his her ability. If all the schools are doing is churning out seniors with 3rd grade educations, I have a BIG problem with that and you should too!

 

[AlleyCat]

Which is the minority. The majority of students should be able to compete with typically hearing people. If the school can't provide that, then the parents NEEDS to look elsewhere!

As for mentally disabled children, I agree with you. For those children, a self contained environment is best, but would you rather have your child in a school that has just as much of a rigorous academic standard then a typical school or one that is subpar. I think you'd want that child in a school where he or she can perform to his her ability. If all the schools are doing is churning out seniors with 3rd grade educations, I have a BIG problem with that and you should too!

My response was to DD's statement about mentally disabled kids being at a 3rd grade level. If you want to take it out of context and apply it to everyone having 3rd grade educations, then that's your problem.

(And yes, I would have a problem if that's what all the schools are doing for all kids. However, that was not what DD was addressing in her sentence.)

 

[Oceanbreeze]

My response was to DD's statement about mentally disabled kids being at a 3rd grade level. If you want to take it out of context and apply it to everyone having 3rd grade educations, then that's your problem.

(And yes, I would have a problem if that's what all the schools are doing for all kids. However, that was not what DD was addressing in her sentence.)

DD is also mixing apples and oranges as she often does.

I am not. I am discussing programs that live up to educational standards for ALL students. I also am NOT discussing just in the mainstream. Why in the world would you want to send a deaf child to a school; program, whatever, if that program doesn't meet decent academic standards? It just doesn't make sense!!!