"In-between"

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deafdyke said:
ecp, she is not even HOH. Not even a unilateral loss. She is coming at this from a hearing perspective. She has perfect hearing...........and ecp, the degree of loss isn't that big of a deal......you have to understand that kids who grew up with HOH losses, experience the exact same thing that deafer kids who are being raised under a HOH style are experiencing. THAT is what they are commenting on. If audilogically HOH as kids people don't feel like they fit in, or they experienced a lot of downsides from it....I think they have the right to speak up and bring up the downsides. (and IMHO, they get accused of attacking or criciticizing when they're just bringing up very legitimate issues and concerns)
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Ok. I really think we all agree that there are no absolutes in the education of Deaf and hard of hearing children.
As someone who became hard of hearing as a kid and deaf as a teen/young adult, I know first hand some of the downsides of mainstream education but I also know that for me, it was the best choice. But that was for me.


Also, I admit that I get annoyed when I explain to people that I am profoundly deaf and they reply, "me too! I can't hear out of my left ear!" Or "me too, I have a wicked cold!". I feel weird trying to get people who say things like that to understand that I CAN'T HEAR! without sounding like I'm complaining.
I will try to be mindful that degree of hearing loss does not determine the frustrations experienced.




PS to everyone. DeafDyke and I don't agree on everything but we are having an adult conversation. It isn't that hard.
 
Oceanbreeze said:
Which is the minority. The majority of students should be able to compete with typically hearing people. If the school can't provide that, then the parents NEEDS to look elsewhere!

As for mentally disabled children, I agree with you. For those children, a self contained environment is best, but would you rather have your child in a school that has just as much of a rigorous academic standard then a typical school or one that is subpar. I think you'd want that child in a school where he or she can perform to his her ability. If all the schools are doing is churning out seniors with 3rd grade educations, I have a BIG problem with that and you should too!
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Oceanbreeze, you're missing that a lot of hearing/mainstream schools ALSO have really crappy education too. You're assuming (wrongly) that just b/c a kid is in the same environment as a hearing kid, they'll automaticly get a better education. Have you missed the FACT that hearing schools can be even WORSE then deaf schools/dhh programs?
 
deafdyke said:
Oceanbreeze, you're missing that a lot of hearing/mainstream schools ALSO have really crappy education too. You're assuming (wrongly) that just b/c a kid is in the same environment as a hearing kid, they'll automaticly get a better education. Have you missed the FACT that hearing schools can be even WORSE then deaf schools/dhh programs?
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Nobody has "missed" anything. Obviously that is something a responsible parent would look into while comparing schools.
 
Oceanbreeze said:
DD is also mixing apples and oranges as she often does.

I am not. I am discussing programs that live up to educational standards for ALL students. I also am NOT discussing just in the mainstream. Why in the world would you want to send a deaf child to a school; program, whatever, if that program doesn't meet decent academic standards? It just doesn't make sense!!!
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Right now, we're talking about attending a specialized program for EARLY CHILDHOOD. Just b/c the rest of the program isn't exactly the best in the world, it does not mean that it doesn't have any redeeming values. You are MISSING COMPLETLY that there is VALUE in a dhh kid attending a specialized program, so they get a good solid foundation for mainstreaming. The early childhood programming at a specialized placement tends to far outshine, even those " Easter Seal" (general special needs) preschools, that some places offer. It's exactly like how most blind schools are now designed for multihandicapped students. But there are still some "just" blind children who attend early on to get the specialized training.
Just b/c dhh kids may attend a Deaf School early on, it doesn't mean they're doomed to develop a fourth grade reading level. Instead they will have a SOLID BASE of training,so they will do well in the mainstream, so they won't fall through the cracks in the first place......which is a HUGE CAUSE of low acheiement levels!
 
I have to agree that good early school placement can set the stage for a child's later school years. I was in a deaf program from age 2 through 2nd grade, then mainstreamed after. The age 2-2nd grade were awesome years - I was on par with my hearing peers. The mainstreamed years after were the years from hell. There's so much more to it than what you see on paper.
 
ecp said:
Ok. I really think we all agree that there are no absolutes in the education of Deaf and hard of hearing children.
As someone who became hard of hearing as a kid and deaf as a teen/young adult, I know first hand some of the downsides of mainstream education but I also know that for me, it was the best choice. But that was for me.






PS to everyone. DeafDyke and I don't agree on everything but we are having an adult conversation. It isn't that hard.
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Yes, there are no absolutes.......but on the other hand.....do you think that maybe it might have been helpful to get intense specialized training/intervention via an educational insistution that was really experienced with dhh kids? Especially early on? Would it have been better/easier to attend a magnet school? (one of those dhh programs housed at a mainstream school) I do recognize and strongly advocate for dhh regional programs/magnet schools. But the thing is....inclusion is basicly trickle down academic theory. It might work very well for SOME kids...BUT, again the reason why specialized programs and schools STILL exist, after 40 years of public school attendance being the norm is b/c a lot of kids aren't getting their needs met in the mainstream. You ask at Deaf Schools, you ask at Blind Schools, you ask at other specialized schools.....they'll tell you " I didn't get what I needed in the mainstream" I think that says a lot. I also think it says a lot when parents of kids with relatively mild but obvious nereological issues, say they wish their kid was dhh, so they could attend Deaf Schools so they could get their needs met.
 
AlleyCat said:
I have to agree that good early school placement can set the stage for a child's later school years. I was in a deaf program from age 2 through 2nd grade, then mainstreamed after. The age 2-2nd grade were awesome years - I was on par with my hearing peers. The mainstreamed years after were the years from hell. There's so much more to it than what you see on paper.
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Thank you AlleyCat!
 
AlleyCat said:
I have to agree that good early school placement can set the stage for a child's later school years. I was in a deaf program from age 2 through 2nd grade, then mainstreamed after. The age 2-2nd grade were awesome years - I was on par with my hearing peers. The mainstreamed years after were the years from hell. There's so much more to it than what you see on paper.
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Bingo! Great post!
 
Oceanbreeze said:
Where do you get that? If you can't compare to regular ed, it does no good! You have to have a standard of excellence. One can't compare a school to one that is mediocre or worse. That's like saying, "Well, they both suck, but this school over here is closer to me, so I guess I'll enroll Jr. here". Huh?

ANY school that has a subpar academic record should be automatically tossed out for consideration.
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Oceanbreeze, just b/c a kid attends a hearing school, it's not going to automaticly mean that they get a crappy education.
So what is your suggestion? You just seem to fixtate on "oh they're crappy"
Get rid of them." The key is REFORMING the problems. Just b/c you close an insistution it doesn't mean that the problems magicly go away. Which reflects the experience that MANY if not most mainstreamed dhh kids have..They are being warehoused not in a res school, but in the MAINSTREAM! ...you're also ignoring the fact that a good education is only a part of the puzzle. There's so much more to education then sitting in a room learning about whatever....there's also social-emotional issues and incidental learning both of which are SEVERELY neglected in dhh children in the mainstream. MANY dhh kids have been mainstreamed and included for ages. Has it made a huge difference? No, b/c people have been totally fixtating on inclusion/mainstreaming as the cure and answer. A kid won't nessarily get a better education in the mainstream. Have you been chatting with parents who are members of AG Bell recently?
 
AlleyCat said:
I have to agree that good early school placement can set the stage for a child's later school years.
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I don't think anyone disagrees with this. Especially with the highlighted word. I sure don't disagree
 
ecp said:
My feelings aren't hurt.
I just think that attacking others based on their degree of hearing loss is counterproductive especially since some of the more vocal people have mild to moderate hearing loss but judge parents who have deaf children for their choices.
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I totally agree. Degree of hearing (or not) shouldn't make a difference. So long as a person has gathered enough (legitimate) information, they are entitled to an opinion.
 
deafdyke said:
As opposed to you who isn't even HOH?
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Snarky much?

Why do you feel the need to point that out about one poster, when there are many posters on this forum who are hearing.

Just because they can hear doesn't mean they don't have thoughts, ideas, and opinions.
 
CSign said:
I totally agree. Degree of hearing (or not) shouldn't make a difference. So long as a person has gathered enough (legitimate) information, they are entitled to an opinion.
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It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you.

The poster in question that it was directed at has zero deafness, zero deaf children, zero deaf parents, zero deaf siblings, zero deaf experience being mainstreamed (or at a deaf school.) Her knowledge comes from "I have known this child personally since she was 5 yrs old. She is now 11.5 years old. The girl went to school with my niece and she taught a few signs to her. My niece came home from school and taught ME those same signs."

You're completely right. Anyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they have gathered enough (legitimate) information (your words). Otherwise, it's just a mockery. And that's plainly apparent in this thread and not at all beneficial to the parent who started this thread.
 
AlleyCat said:
It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you.

The poster in question that it was directed at has zero deafness, zero deaf children, zero deaf parents, zero deaf siblings, zero deaf experience being mainstreamed (or at a deaf school.) Her knowledge comes from "I have known this child personally since she was 5 yrs old. She is now 11.5 years old. The girl went to school with my niece and she taught a few signs to her. My niece came home from school and taught ME those same signs."

You're completely right. Anyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they have gathered enough (legitimate) information (your words). Otherwise, it's just a mockery. And that's plainly apparent in this thread and not at all beneficial to the parent who started this thread.
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It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you (your words).

OB has been involved with the deaf community for many years, and is certainly entitled to her own opinion.
 
CSign said:
It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you (your words).

OB has been involved with the deaf community for many years, and is certainly entitled to her own opinion.
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Yes it was. JadeSkye is looking for advice from those who may have some solid advice to offer. OB comes off as of the very sort that we have been trying to unhitch from our community. The only people I've seen being vindictive are the hearies who THINK they're involved. A friend of a friend's daughter is just silly. That's not what I'd call involved and gives them NO merit in passing on advice. It's just somebody spewing random nonsense. No more backwards thinking. In the name of progress is our only intent.

*shrugs*
 
NitroHonda said:
Yes it was. JadeSkye is looking for advice from those who may have some solid advice to offer. OB comes off as of the very sort that we have been trying to unhitch from our community. The only people I've seen being vindictive are the hearies who THINK they're involved. A friend of a friend's daughter is just silly. That's not what I'd call involved and gives them NO merit in passing on advice. It's just somebody spewing random nonsense. No more backwards thinking. In the name of progress is our only intent.

*shrugs*
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Thank you.
 
AlleyCat said:
It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you.

The poster in question that it was directed at has zero deafness, zero deaf children, zero deaf parents, zero deaf siblings, zero deaf experience being mainstreamed (or at a deaf school.) Her knowledge comes from "I have known this child personally since she was 5 yrs old. She is now 11.5 years old. The girl went to school with my niece and she taught a few signs to her. My niece came home from school and taught ME those same signs."

You're completely right. Anyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they have gathered enough (legitimate) information (your words). Otherwise, it's just a mockery. And that's plainly apparent in this thread and not at all beneficial to the parent who started this thread.
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Not only that, this person criticized me for sharing MY experiences and opinions. So why is it ok for her to do that but not OK for her to get criticized? Something is wrong with the picture here.
 
CSign said:
It might behoove you to not say anything since the post wasn't directed at you (your words).

OB has been involved with the deaf community for many years, and is certainly entitled to her own opinion.
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But yet, she attacked me for sharing my experiences and opinions. Hmmmmm :hmm:
 
deafdyke said:
WHAT the fuck OB?!?!??!?! Stop acting like I'm Sweetmind or another extremist. How do you know that this girl didn't attend a deaf school early on or didn't attend a dhh program early on?
You're missing that the reason I am advocating for Deaf School placement in this case is so that the child can have a good base of a few years of preschool/kindergarten/first grade, so she can have a solid base for mainstreaming. I'm not saying " total and complete" separate education. Stop seeing things as totally black and white. The quality of the early childhood programming for a dhh child is most likely going to be FAR better then can be found in an inclusive setting, where they have little to no experience with dhh children.
heck, if there was a regional dhh program available, I would encourage the OP to look into that. But there isn't. And it sounds like the local programs are going to try to get away with only providing a minimal accomondations approach.
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Because, I know where this child lived; in my area. There are NO deaf schools where I live. There is only mainstream education; albeit a much smaller population than a larger city school would be. That's how I know. As I said, I've known this child since Kindergarten.

Nobody is advocating for extremism. I certainly am not; nor am I advocating mainstream schooling for all children. However, this site never has a good thing to say about the mainstream environment for the d/hh child, and, I'm advocating that for some children IT HAS worked. Again, not all. Some.

Effective advocacy is considering all options and possablities. Not every child is going to do well in the mainstream, but not every child well thrive in a Deaf school, either. It's that continuum you were talking about! It works BOTH ways.
 
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