"In-between"

[NitroHonda]

Don't assume what you don't know about me. My experiences with the Deaf go way beyond one child. I've actually seen what some of you are saying happens in the mainstream. I also never denied it doesn't happen. It does, but again, I have also said that I don't support the mainstream for all. Never have I said that. The only thing I will say and that is a well known fact, I'm hearing, so of course, I don't have the same first hand knowledge as all of you.

I find it odd that when I used to base my opinions off of experiences I saw happen 30 yrs ago, that was all well and good with you all and I was even considered "honorary deaf". But, since I take a more broader opinion and DARE say that mainstreaming is probably a practical option for some children, all hell breaks loose, and the attitude is I don't have a clue. Again, people start spewing hatred because they are bitter. I really wish some of you would take the chip off your shoulder, because, the hearing isn't your enemy. I, for one, can get alone with anyone if mutual respect is given. But, you know what? I REFUSE to give respect to people who are hell bent on being biased. I tried.

I'm done.

Only one who's bitter is you. You need to take a long look and re-read this entire thread. I have. Several times.

I can only go based on what you have said. If you have more "experiences" maybe you should share them to help credibility on your end. One important factor regarding Deaf people... say exactly what you mean. If you say "we"... we are going to assume you meant we as in YOU... not somebody else's parents. You are struggling to clearly put your message forward (maybe a strike against your credibility?). If that's me being bitter... welp, I need to stop eating imaginary lemons then.

I think the hearing are our friends on the other side. We can't reject them. We all must function together. You tried? I don't think you tried very hard. You can refuse to give me respect all you like but I will CONTINUE to give you my respect and my continued hopes that the light kicks on for you one day like it did me.

This isn't mean to be disrespectful but I can't pass it up... "honorary deaf". In that super small community of yours? Yeah. Okay. I have some beachfront property in Montana that I'd like to give you. It even comes with a certificate.



FYI, I don't care that you are hearing nor Deaf or HoH or orange. When the basis of your entire argument is... "I have seen such a child". It just demeans the entire struggle of an entire people. WE have seen thousands like your niece's friend and I am one myself. We have also seen hundreds of thousands (millions if we go down the history timeline) that it didn't dink for. It's like painting a Rembrant with a 3-inch angled Purdy brush.

Honestly, TXgolfer was right in his previous post. We need to move forward and focus on the issue. With that in mind, I wasn't looking to argue with somebody like you. I was hoping to debate and/or learn from Babyblue, who I think said she was a former FSDBer? THAT'S the people who can help JadeSkye the most.

May I extend a hand out in hopes that there are no hard feelings? You and I are both members of alldeaf.

 

[AlleyCat]

FYI, I don't care that you are hearing nor Deaf or HoH or orange. When the basis of your entire argument is... "I have seen such a child". It just demeans the entire struggle of an entire people. WE have seen thousands like your niece and I am one myself. We have also seen hundreds of thousands (millions if we go down the history timeline) that it didn't dink for. It's like painting a Rembrant with a 3-inch angled Purdy brush.

THIS !!

I am one too.

 

[shel90]

THIS !!

I am one too.

And I am one as well. My deaf brother is another one. My best friend ...additional one. Oh to the heck with it...my community of deaf/hoh friends are also ones too.

 

[TXgolfer]

Yea, parents need to think about all of these things. I did great academically by being mainstreamed but I was constantly swimming hard to keep my head above water just to keep up. Socially, that was already out for me as there was nothing I could do to keep up with my peers in social situations.

There are different ways to approach this.

Back in the 90's I played on/and coached one of the best softball teams in the country. We were in the "A" classification which was the highest except for the Major classification. There were only 6 legitimate major teams. We set our goal that year to win the Class "A" World Championship. That year we played 16 tournaments, traveled all over the country. 14 of the 16 tournaments we played in were Major Level NIT's. We didn't have to play that level, we could have played "A" tournaments and collected a lot of brass plus saved a lot of money. But we chose to play the major circuit. We did ok, usually finishing fourth or fifth. These tournaments would have 20-25 teams because nearby "A" and "B" teams would usually play in them so 4th or 5th every tournament was respectable. But then came time for the "A" World Series. We spent the year playing the best in the World and we showed up here it was like playing children we went 6-0 in that tournament with 5 out of 6 games ending in the 4th or 5th inning due to the mercy rule. We met our goal.

My point is, although it wasn't always fun (One Major team scored 65 runs against us in one inning. 65!) we made our way through it and reached our goal. That is similar to what I see in your situation, the school days may have been tough but you achieved your goal of getting your Masters. Not only that you also have a lot of friends in the deaf community. And granted, had you attended a great deaf school you may have been equally successful. But, for the student stuck in a bad school (mainstream or deaf) their chances of competing and thriving in the adult world are significantly reduced. The way I see it, we need more deaf people out there thriving in the adult world in order to change perception of the deaf world. People need to see deaf people becoming leaders and making a difference. IMO opinion, when we isolate ourselves, we give others an excuse to dismiss us. "Oh, yeah she made a 4.0, but at a deaf school" "Yeah, he built a great communications business but it is deaf communications so he already had a niche craved out."

I guess to sum up..... IMO instead of demanding deaf schools or selling deaf schools to parents we need to demand that deaf schools are 100% competitive with their mainstream rivals. (Some already are) If we do this, then we won't have to sell deaf schools to parents, they will be racing to sign their kids up. At the same time I think we do parents and deaf children a disservice when we lead them to believe that all deaf schools are the same, or that deaf schools are the answer no matter what. Instead, we need to call out bad schools because they tarnish the reputation of all schools. The bad schools are also a disservice to the taxpayer. Taxpayers pay to have school that prepare kids for adulthood. If we ignore the bad schools they are allowed to continue taking advantage of the system and the students are the victims.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[shel90]

There are different ways to approach this.

Back in the 90's I played on/and coached one of the best softball teams in the country. We were in the "A" classification which was the highest except for the Major classification. There were only 6 legitimate major teams. We set our goal that year to win the Class "A" World Championship. That year we played 16 tournaments, traveled all over the country. 14 of the 16 tournaments we played in were Major Level NIT's. We didn't have to play that level, we could have played "A" tournaments and collected a lot of brass plus saved a lot of money. But we chose to play the major circuit. We did ok, usually finishing fourth or fifth. These tournaments would have 20-25 teams because nearby "A" and "B" teams would usually play in them so 4th or 5th every tournament was respectable. But then came time for the "A" World Series. We spent the year playing the best in the World and we showed up here it was like playing children we went 6-0 in that tournament with 5 out of 6 games ending in the 4th or 5th inning due to the mercy rule. We met our goal.

My point is, although it wasn't always fun (One Major team scored 65 runs against us in one inning. 65!) we made our way through it and reached our goal. That is similar to what I see in your situation, the school days may have been tough but you achieved your goal of getting your Masters. Not only that you also have a lot of friends in the deaf community. And granted, had you attended a great deaf school you may have been equally successful. But, for the student stuck in a bad school (mainstream or deaf) their chances of competing and thriving in the adult world are significantly reduced. The way I see it, we need more deaf people out there thriving in the adult world in order to change perception of the deaf world. People need to see deaf people becoming leaders and making a difference. IMO opinion, when we isolate ourselves, we give others an excuse to dismiss us. "Oh, yeah she made a 4.0, but at a deaf school" "Yeah, he built a great communications business but it is deaf communications so he already had a niche craved out."

I guess to sum up..... IMO instead of demanding deaf schools or selling deaf schools to parents we need to demand that deaf schools are 100% competitive with their mainstream rivals. (Some already are) If we do this, then we won't have to sell deaf schools to parents, they will be racing to sign their kids up. At the same time I think we do parents and deaf children a disservice when we lead them to believe that all deaf schools are the same, or that deaf schools are the answer no matter what. Instead, we need to call out bad schools because they tarnish the reputation of all schools. The bad schools are also a disservice to the taxpayer. Taxpayers pay to have school that prepare kids for adulthood. If we ignore the bad schools they are allowed to continue taking advantage of the system and the students are the victims.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes it makes sense but you have to remember that most deaf kids are born to hearing parents and most hearing parents tend to go the oral/mainstreaming route and many of these kids fall behind academically and then get transferred to Deaf schools as a last resort. With the language delays and deficits these kids have, it became much much harder for them to catch up academically and as a result, the Deaf schools get the blame.

People forget to go beyond the numbers and look at what happened with each child during their first few years of their lives especially with access to language.

 

[saywhatkid]

Yes it makes sense but you have to remember that most deaf kids are born to hearing parents and most hearing parents tend to go the oral/mainstreaming route and many of these kids fall behind academically and then get transferred to Deaf schools as a last resort. With the language delays and deficits these kids have, it became much much harder for them to catch up academically and as a result, the Deaf schools get the blame.

People forget to go beyond the numbers and look at what happened with each child during their first few years of their lives especially with access to language.

Kind of like throwing a child with mobility issues into a swimming pool and hoping he/she doesn't drown.

 

[TXgolfer]

Yes it makes sense but you have to remember that most deaf kids are born to hearing parents and most hearing parents tend to go the oral/mainstreaming route and many of these kids fall behind academically and then get transferred to Deaf schools as a last resort. With the language delays and deficits these kids have, it became much much harder for them to catch up academically and as a result, the Deaf schools get the blame.

People forget to go beyond the numbers and look at what happened with each child during their first few years of their lives especially with access to language.

Well on this I agree with the man from the vlog. Regardless of path, parents of deaf children need to have to be learning ASL right away. There needs to be an effort to inform parents of the need for language and other accessibility options. I think that video should be required viewing for all parents.

 

[NitroHonda]

There are different ways to approach this.

Back in the 90's I played on/and coached one of the best softball teams in the country. We were in the "A" classification which was the highest except for the Major classification. There were only 6 legitimate major teams. We set our goal that year to win the Class "A" World Championship. That year we played 16 tournaments, traveled all over the country. 14 of the 16 tournaments we played in were Major Level NIT's. We didn't have to play that level, we could have played "A" tournaments and collected a lot of brass plus saved a lot of money. But we chose to play the major circuit. We did ok, usually finishing fourth or fifth. These tournaments would have 20-25 teams because nearby "A" and "B" teams would usually play in them so 4th or 5th every tournament was respectable. But then came time for the "A" World Series. We spent the year playing the best in the World and we showed up here it was like playing children we went 6-0 in that tournament with 5 out of 6 games ending in the 4th or 5th inning due to the mercy rule. We met our goal.

My point is, although it wasn't always fun (One Major team scored 65 runs against us in one inning. 65!) we made our way through it and reached our goal. That is similar to what I see in your situation, the school days may have been tough but you achieved your goal of getting your Masters. Not only that you also have a lot of friends in the deaf community. And granted, had you attended a great deaf school you may have been equally successful. But, for the student stuck in a bad school (mainstream or deaf) their chances of competing and thriving in the adult world are significantly reduced. The way I see it, we need more deaf people out there thriving in the adult world in order to change perception of the deaf world. People need to see deaf people becoming leaders and making a difference. IMO opinion, when we isolate ourselves, we give others an excuse to dismiss us. "Oh, yeah she made a 4.0, but at a deaf school" "Yeah, he built a great communications business but it is deaf communications so he already had a niche craved out."

I guess to sum up..... IMO instead of demanding deaf schools or selling deaf schools to parents we need to demand that deaf schools are 100% competitive with their mainstream rivals. (Some already are) If we do this, then we won't have to sell deaf schools to parents, they will be racing to sign their kids up. At the same time I think we do parents and deaf children a disservice when we lead them to believe that all deaf schools are the same, or that deaf schools are the answer no matter what. Instead, we need to call out bad schools because they tarnish the reputation of all schools. The bad schools are also a disservice to the taxpayer. Taxpayers pay to have school that prepare kids for adulthood. If we ignore the bad schools they are allowed to continue taking advantage of the system and the students are the victims.

Hope that makes sense.

It made perfect sense and was a very good post worthy of though and consideration. I certainly appreciated it.

The attitudes you speak of regarding the already had that niche carved out for them, etc. etc. I tend to agree and people are telling me so as I become one of those myself... within the community and outside. My business is new but as you already know, I'm the total opposite. None of my customers are Deaf and I will likely NEVER have a Deaf customer (anything's possible but odds aren't in my favor here).

Ergo, I want to respond back to you but I can't. I don't know what to say yet. I'm still on this frightening ride and my stomach's still all queasy from it. I probably won't be able to respond on it for another couple years too. It takes time but yes... more Deaf people need to become successful. Thing is... they ARE! 3 families are eating well and saving their money as a direct result of my personal achievements. My own family and my two full-time employees. I'm not patting myself on the back either. I couldn't have done it without my awesome employees. I'm just saying that we're willing... and when given the opportunity to shine... ARE shining. As barriers fall, the more successful Deaf people become. Mixing that with early childhood education is a bit... maybe presumptuous if that's the right word? Eh. Ask me about this in a couple years as I journey through it myself... but education has little to do with employment barriers at this stage in our country's perception of us as a people.

I'm curious... how come you were beating teams by invoking the mercy rule on them yet somebody put 65 runs on you in one inning?

 

[deafdyke]

I totally agree. Deaf children tend to be further behind in this area, especially when they do not have interaction with other d/Deaf children. It's not that I'm saying deaf kids must hang out with other deaf kids, but social interaction and graces come more difficult when it's 100% hearing interaction for a deaf child. I know that's not what you were addressing, but just wanted to emphasize I think it's great you are also factoring in social interaction into your decisions.

Right on AlleyCat! One of the reasons why going to FSDB for early on would be an AMAZING idea is b/c it's all in one....it concerns itself with the WHOLE child, meaning social emotional development, and a lot of the intangibles...like in a Deaf Ed environment a dhh kid is "just one of the kids" rather then " that deaf kid"
It's a lot easier for dhh kids to relate to other kids like them. A LOT! Heck, this way a lot of dhh kids could build their confidence and become leaders...

 

[deafdyke]

Yes it makes sense but you have to remember that most deaf kids are born to hearing parents and most hearing parents tend to go the oral/mainstreaming route and many of these kids fall behind academically and then get transferred to Deaf schools as a last resort. With the language delays and deficits these kids have, it became much much harder for them to catch up academically and as a result, the Deaf schools get the blame.

People forget to go beyond the numbers and look at what happened with each child during their first few years of their lives especially with access to language.

This.....exactly!!!!! I really think that fedral law needs to reclassify Deaf and blind schools. They're seen as "insistutions", when they need to be seen more as schools that happen to have a residential component. There is a lot of value in specialized schools for both Deaf and Blind kids. They also really need to strongly emphasize using the Deaf and blind schools as early childhood placements......

 

[deafdyke]

Not knowing where in Florida the OP is, I can't really say much about her area. Seems good that she is close enough to FSDB. Now, personally, I have never been there and even with the rating that it shows, I would still have loved to have had the chance to go there for myself. I will not cry over spilled milk. I am acquainted with a few people who have been to that school, both young enough to still be in school and old enough to have already had their own families. Of the people I know, only 1 has said that it was the worst school they have ever been to. All the others were quite happy. The high school student is no longer there as the school dropped a program that was really wanted. Of those that are adults, there is an attorney, a few school teachers, and a few who work for Florida Association of the Deaf. Here in my area, they have closed down all the "special" schools for the special needs children. That is how they were termed. These kids were either mainstreamed or the parent had them sent to FSDB. There are about 5-8 instructors certified to teach ASL for the whole county. These instructors are overwhelmed by the sheer number of Deaf/hoh students needing assistance. There are also not enough interpreters for all these students and still have enough for the college students and adults that need the interpreters. Something is missing and needs to be fixed.

Just my 2 cents here. Probably not much to some people here.

Yes........an inclusive approach SOUNDS good in theory but in real life, it doesn't work out very well......and I say that for a LOT of low incidence conditions, not just dhh. Kids with low incidence conditons really do miss out on a LOT of specialized stuff in the mainstream. a LOT.....either that or they get lumped in with mainstream special ed.

 

[TXgolfer]

It made perfect sense and was a very good post worthy of though and consideration. I certainly appreciated it.

The attitudes you speak of regarding the already had that niche carved out for them, etc. etc. I tend to agree and people are telling me so as I become one of those myself... within the community and outside. My business is new but as you already know, I'm the total opposite. None of my customers are Deaf and I will likely NEVER have a Deaf customer (anything's possible but odds aren't in my favor here).

Ergo, I want to respond back to you but I can't. I don't know what to say yet. I'm still on this frightening ride and my stomach's still all queasy from it. I probably won't be able to respond on it for another couple years too. It takes time but yes... more Deaf people need to become successful. Thing is... they ARE! 3 families are eating well and saving their money as a direct result of my personal achievements. My own family and my two full-time employees. I'm not patting myself on the back either. I couldn't have done it without my awesome employees. I'm just saying that we're willing... and when given the opportunity to shine... ARE shining. As barriers fall, the more successful Deaf people become. Mixing that with early childhood education is a bit... maybe presumptuous if that's the right word? Eh. Ask me about this in a couple years as I journey through it myself... but education has little to do with employment barriers at this stage in our country's perception of us as a people.

I'm curious... how come you were beating teams by invoking the mercy rule on them yet somebody put 65 runs on you in one inning?

That team was Ritch's Superior.... They are probably the best team ever. Some of the guys playing on that team made $100k plus just for playing the game. We were the best of our division and only 4 or 5 of our players even received pay. Those received $300/week or so. We actually gave Ritch's a great game in Arkansas...they beat us by 7 there but it was closer than that. It was also a Saturday 7pm game (prime time) so we had a HUGE crowd. Usually when playing the Major circuit we played in minor league baseball stadiums which kept scores in the 30s and 40s. When Ritch's played on 300ft fences (regulation fields) they were unstoppable.

Imagine playing this on 300ft Fences...

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjK10NUFjZU]Long Haul Bombers 2008 Finals - YouTube[/ame]

 

[deafdyke]

Don't assume what you don't know about me. My experiences with the Deaf go way beyond one child. I've actually seen what some of you are saying happens in the mainstream. I also never denied it doesn't happen. It does, but again, I have also said that I don't support the mainstream for all. Never have I said that. The only thing I will say and that is a well known fact, I'm hearing, so of course, I don't have the same first hand knowledge as all of you.

I find it odd that when I used to base my opinions off of experiences I saw happen 30 yrs ago, that was all well and good with you all and I was even considered "honorary deaf". But, since I take a more broader opinion and DARE say that mainstreaming is probably a practical option for some children, all hell breaks loose, and the attitude is I don't have a clue. Again, people start spewing hatred because they are bitter. I really wish some of you would take the chip off your shoulder, because, the hearing isn't your enemy. I, for one, can get alone with anyone if mutual respect is given. But, you know what? I REFUSE to give respect to people who are hell bent on being biased. I tried.

I'm done.

Oceanbreeze, You're missing that the negative stuff STILL widely happens.
STILL. The ONLY difference between now and 20 years ago, is that kids with CIs can aquire speech skills a bit easier or are more functionally HOH.
I think too that you're expolarating your experience as a kid with physical disabilities in a orthopedic unit, to the dhh experience. The two experiances don't even come close........

 

[TXgolfer]

Oceanbreeze, You're missing that the negative stuff STILL widely happens.
STILL. The ONLY difference between now and 20 years ago, is that kids with CIs can aquire speech skills a bit easier or are more functionally HOH.
I think too that you're expolarating your experience as a kid with physical disabilities in a orthopedic unit, to the dhh experience. The two experiances don't even come close........

Can we please just focus on the topic instead of bashing other posters? This is getting ridiculous and that is why these threads always get shut down.

 

[deafdyke]

Can we please just focus on the topic instead of bashing other posters? This is getting ridiculous and that is why these threads always get shut down.

Not bashing her.....simply bringing up some aspects that are coloring her worldview.
I don't deny there are kids who are thriving in an inclusive setting. But there have ALWAYS been kids who do well in the mainstream. ALWAYS. That doesn't mean that they represent the norm, or that there aren't problems not apparent to a causal observer or who actually lives the life of a hoh kid....
Heck, we had a former poster who specialized in the emotional needs of dhh children, who were "doing well"........but when the door closed and the parent left she heard all too familiar stories.
This isn't about Oceanbreeze personally actually. I see a LOT of physically disabled activists do this.......they push the mainstream as the Highest Ideal, and make it sound like specialized things/placements/services are the equilvanet of placing disabled (any disability) kids into Willowbrooks/warehouses.

 

[TXgolfer]

not bashing her.....simply bringing up some aspects that are coloring her worldview.
I don't deny there are kids who are thriving in an inclusive setting. But there have always been kids who do well in the mainstream. Always. That doesn't mean that they represent the norm, or that there aren't problems not apparent to a causal observer or who actually lives the life of a hoh kid....
Heck, we had a former poster who specialized in the emotional needs of dhh children, who were "doing well"........but when the door closed and the parent left she heard all too familiar stories.
This isn't about oceanbreeze personally actually. I see a lot of physically disabled activists do this.......they push the mainstream as the highest ideal, and make it sound like specialized things/placements/services are the equilvanet of placing disabled (any disability) kids into willowbrooks/warehouses.

smh

 

[CSign]

Not bashing her.....simply bringing up some aspects that are coloring her worldview.
I don't deny there are kids who are thriving in an inclusive setting. But there have ALWAYS been kids who do well in the mainstream. ALWAYS. That doesn't mean that they represent the norm, or that there aren't problems not apparent to a causal observer or who actually lives the life of a hoh kid....
Heck, we had a former poster who specialized in the emotional needs of dhh children, who were "doing well"........but when the door closed and the parent left she heard all too familiar stories.
This isn't about Oceanbreeze personally actually. I see a LOT of physically disabled activists do this.......they push the mainstream as the Highest Ideal, and make it sound like specialized things/placements/services are the equilvanet of placing disabled (any disability) kids into Willowbrooks/warehouses.

Stop fabricating stories...

I know. I know. The OP should wait until her child is older, and things behind the scenes will be hellish but the child will keep it a secret (according to this "former poster" of course). Comments like that are really encouraging.

Step down off your vitriolic soapbox for once. OB is an intelligent person, and is capable of making observations and forming opinions. There was absolutely no need to go there. People can take it or leave it- the degrading inappropriate comments are not necessary.

Heck- what you're missing is that maybe you have some aspects coloring your world view.

 

[CSign]

And to update on the actual "school issues" since that is kinda why I posted this to begin with:

I have set up to meet with someone at FSDB mid-March to do a tour and to talk about the school itself (what it offers, academics, etc.) to begin making a decision on what we will do for her for early intervention.

I also spoke with our local school district's ESE department. Since she is three they do not take her right into the school system, they referred me to a group called FDLERS/ ChildFind (can't remember what FDLERS stands for)- they are basically a group that does screenings and then sets you up with services. I spoke with the lady from FDLERS today and filled out paperwork for her to start seeing what was available. It sounds like they would be offering speech/language therapy that would come to our home once a week. To be honest, at this point that does not seem like as good of an option to me as sending her to FSDB does. Someone working with her once a week vs. a classroom with other kids and language services (whether that is ASL or speech therapy of some sort) seems like a bit of a no-brainer. I think she would benefit more from an actual class, because not only would she be learning things (like speech and language) but she would also be learning skills like interacting with other kids, rules in a classroom, etc (social skills). I know this probably sounds like my mind is made up already, but I am still keeping it open until I have all the information I feel I need (which should be by the end of March because we will have toured FSDB and had a chance to ask them questions and I would hope we will have heard something more from FDLERS/ChildFind on what they have available).

On a really positive note: we also have an appointment scheduled for March (gosh, that is going to be a busy month!) for her to see her ENT and audiologist again and have her ear molds made!! I don't know how long it takes to actually GET the hearing aids once they make the molds, but I am hoping that this means it won't be long before she has hearing aids!

From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like they are offering the speech therapy as her educational placement, but a piece of her supplementary aids and services.

Once you've gone through the formalities of visiting and applying to the school it will likely be a supplement to her educational program.

Since she is 3, your school district is responsible for providing her with a FAPE. That will likely mean that your district will need to be the ones to initiate applying to that school.

Glad things are moving forward.

 

[ecp]

Can we get a moderator to shut this down?
This is no longer a discussion.
It is no longer useful.

 

[Calvin]

This thread is locked.