Hearing people's view of CI

[dogmom]

I agree with AC and Caroline

same as "I don't see color" -
in itself a racist statement because it negates the history in the U.S.

"....isn't 'an emotional ASL vs oral drama' " - the whole system the way it's designed was and is an ASL vs. oral and all "I'm so sorry that your child is" and all the stuff d/Deaf people on here keep repeating and repeating and people don't seem to get it....
invalidation......

 

[DeafCaroline]

I agree with AC and Caroline

same as "I don't see color" -
in itself a racist statement because it negates the history in the U.S.

"....isn't 'an emotional ASL vs oral drama' " - the whole system the way it's designed was and is an ASL vs. oral and all "I'm so sorry that your child is" and all the stuff d/Deaf people on here keep repeating and repeating and people don't seem to get it....
invalidation......

Invalidation - that's one of Cloggy's specialties.

 

[CSign]

The "best interest of the child" is subjective.

For some parents that may mean the use of technology (HA's/Baja/CI) along with Sign language.

For others it may mean the use of technology without sign- and everything in between.

I don't appreciate my statement being labeled as ignorant, especially considering my statement was a fact. There are many parents who educate themselves and understand what their individual child needs.

For me, I understood from the start that my child needed access to sign language and I started learning right away. There was no big emotional drama- it was what it was. I had no problem
committing to learning and using sign with and around my son.

Other children may have different needs- this was what was right for my individual Child.

 

[stephaniep21]

We all have hearing family and friends - I remember when Children of a Lesser God came out, suddenly hearing people were all like "yeah, I can imagine what's it like being deaf because I went swimming underwater and couldn't hear anything."

lol. Ok.

lol wow...

 

[messymama]

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

 

[Lily7]

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

That was absolutely beautiful. I wish I'd had a mother like you. The bolded part is an especially good point, you were very wise to notice and use that.

 

[Cheetah]

The "best interest of the child" is subjective.

For some parents that may mean the use of technology (HA's/Baja/CI) along with Sign language.

For others it may mean the use of technology without sign- and everything in between.

I don't appreciate my statement being labeled as ignorant, especially considering my statement was a fact. There are many parents who educate themselves and understand what their individual child needs.

For me, I understood from the start that my child needed access to sign language and I started learning right away. There was no big emotional drama- it was what it was. I had no problem
committing to learning and using sign with and around my son.

Other children may have different needs- this was what was right for my individual Child.

CSign, I have no doubt that you feel you made all the right decisions for your child. Most parents feel they made the best choice given the information they had at their disposal. I have no problem with that.

The problem I have is when parents are presented with new information that might change the way they educate or raise their child and ignore that information simply because they have already reached a decision.

I have always used regular gas in my sports car. If tomorrow I learn that the manufacturer recommends premium fuel for my car to prevent premature engine failure I should take that new information into consideration. I have an opportunity to mitigate future damage to my car by switching fuel now. But given that I never had any issues with regular fuel and the fact that I made the decision to always use the cheapest fuel on the market I am refusing to change. Despite receiving a recommendation from those most knowledgeable about my engine.

I realize that a child and a car are not the same thing. The point is if you do not take into consideration new information you are in effect short changing your child. Unless of course you have decided that the ones providing you the information are not reliable/trustworthy/honest/experienced... I admit, I'm not a medical doctor. I have no degrees to provide authority to my knowledge. And I am just one person. But when you start adding up the number of people here that are deaf and have lived with the decisions our parents made, maybe, just maybe the volume will be loud enough for even you and Cloggy to hear us.

What do you think? Are we worth listening to?

 

[Cloggy]

Being parents means to take risks... Only our children will be able to judge what we've done for them, and make us notice all of our (unavoidable) mistakes.

I'm conscious that my child may question why I didn't get him CI... And if I get one for him, he may ask why I didn't accept him like he was. Doubts are heatlhy since we are asked to decide on another human being's skin. It's not easy and I don't think it's possible to be "sure" of what his best is - at least it's impossible for me. I can only do my best and hope he won't grow up to say that he had a hard time because of our choices.

Of course one tries to gain many informations, but at a certain point, you have to look at your child and trust your instinct... It's not easy...
A fact is, no one of the deaf adults I have met ever complained about being taught SL during their childhood. never seen that. While many are unhappy with the contrary, so... This made up my mind about SL, and I don't think I'll ever regret it.
But about CI, well, that's much more difficult I think.

On all accounts... Very, very true..

 

[Cloggy]

Perfect hearing skills is not necessary for perfect speech skills, and perfect hearing does not guarantee proper speech. Basic speech therapist knowledge.

Learning deaf kids animal sounds has been part of speech therapy for a century, to train specific pronouncations. Dunno if your daughter is depedent on speech therapy to learn to make proper sounds, but you for sure make her appear as a future hardcore member of our cultural and ethnic community with claims like that.

No speech therapy... she never had it...
... on the latter part... what claim was that?

 

[CSign]

Cheetah- I'm not sure why you think I don't take new information into consideration.

My belief is there is always something more to learn, and I will continue expanding on my knowledge base until the day I die. Beyond that, new information I come across is always taken into consideration.

What exactly is it that you don't think I'm "hearing"?

 

[Cloggy]

I did. How about you listen for a change?

That wouldn't be a change.... Listening all the time.. Sorry I don't agree with you..

You are saying repeating sounds perfectly is no problem for deaf people...???
Interesting..
Wouldn't you need accurate feedback in order to do that.?

 

[DeafCaroline]

That wouldn't be a change.... Listening all the time.. Sorry I don't agree with you..

You are saying repeating sounds perfectly is no problem for deaf people...???
Interesting..
Wouldn't you need accurate feedback in order to do that.?

No.

 

[Cloggy]

You can say it's like that for some parents, at least some in this thread are in danger of appearing that way.

My point was however that not all parents necessary have a strong faith in what they did, but those who claim parents are able to do "informed choices", or claim they managed to do so, rarely admit the drama most parents are caught in, with strong influences, aware or unaware. Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist.

In general, CI surgery teams and audiologist don't communicate well with sociologist, psychologist and linquistics and the deaf community. The result is, sadly, a major fuckup in many parents thinking.

There will alway be doubt at any decision one makes. Only time will remove the doubt bit by bit. And that goes both ways. Yes/no for CI.
People that choose not to let their child hear, and raise the child with signlanguage will also have their doubts about their decision. Only in time, seeing that their decision was good, that communication is established, friends are made, school is going well.. all these factors help to grind away the doubt.

Parents that make the choice for CI will have gone through an emotional process leading to their decision, and with it there will will be doubts. Will it work. How successful will it be... Only when CI is activated this doubt will be (for most) reduced when communication is established etc. like with the decision to raise a child deaf.
For me, and many other parents that have made the same decision, any doubts about making the decision TO have faded away. For some faster than for others..

The problems start - in any of the choices made - with communication. When this is not established from day 1, there will be problems. When the child cannot hear, and the parents don't use signs: there will be problems. When the child learns sign, but the parents don't: there will be problems. When the parents decide for CI, but do not establish a form of communication before the child can here: there will be problems. When a child has CI and the parents think that the problems are fixed now.. there will be problems..
When a someone that has been deaf all his/her life and decided to "try" a CI expecting to hear: there will be problems..

Any decision a parent (or any other person) takes regarding CI requires full involvement in the process. Whether learning to use sign language (fluently) or to (help) learn make sense out of the new input. No involvement - no success. And even with that.. success is not guaranteed..
Your child might be fluent in sign language, have many deaf friends, be happy in the Deaf world, but in a family setting the parents have to be interpreters.. Contact with the nearby family and friends is a problem. Your child might be able to hear with CI, but not enough to speak and listen to a conversation..
In the end, success is defined by expectations...

If you expect CI the give you hearing.. you might be disappointed. If you expect sign language is solving the communication gap, you might be disappointed.

But... when it works... when the decision turns out to be successful.. when all the studying you have done has paid off, when all the attention to your child proves to be working... parents have all the right to be proud of it, and to share it. Whether their child is deaf or can hear.

btw.. when you said "Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist."... this is perhaps even more strong the other way around.
The pressure from Deaf community might even be bigger. When part of Deaf community, one has to be very strong to consider CI.. Even stronger to go through with it.. Because... any hint of wanting to hear sounds is regarded as treason.. Let alone enjoying sounds....
Nobody wants to lose their family and friends...

 

[Cloggy]

No.

I'm listening to you...

Sure

 

[DeafCaroline]

There will alway be doubt at any decision one makes. Only time will remove the doubt bit by bit. And that goes both ways. Yes/no for CI.
People that choose not to let their child hear,

Ok, I have a HUGE issue with the word "let" - it's like you're saying a parent is withholding the child's hearing and deciding to "let" the child have it back. No, there was no "letting" or "permission given" - it's a parent paying the doctor to go ahead and implant a CI into their child's body whether or not the child asked for it.


...and raise the child with signlanguage will also have their doubts about their decision. Only in time, seeing that their decision was good, that communication is established, friends are made, school is going well.. all these factors help to grind away the doubt.

Your daughter is still young yet. Wait till she graduates from university before you say her progress has ground away any doubts.

Parents that make the choice for CI will have gone through an emotional process leading to their decision, and with it there will will be doubts. Will it work. How successful will it be... Only when CI is activated this doubt will be (for most) reduced when communication is established etc. like with the decision to raise a child deaf.


You made a decision to raise a child deaf? She was already deaf to begin with and by the way, she's still deaf.

For me, and many other parents that have made the same decision, any doubts about making the decision TO have faded away. For some faster than for others..

Any decision a parent (or any other person) takes regarding CI requires full involvement in the process. Whether learning to use sign language (fluently) or to (help) learn make sense out of the new input. No involvement - no success. And even with that.. success is not guaranteed..
Your child might be fluent in sign language, have many deaf friends, be happy in the Deaf world, but in a family setting the parents have to be interpreters..

No, they don't have to be interpreters. They teach their child how to communicate for themselves. My parents never interpreted for me, they would literally give me a shove and say "I am not going to ask them, you ask." or "If you didn't hear what they said, just ask them to repeat or write it down." My parents were insistent that I learn independence from a very young age.

Contact with the nearby family and friends is a problem. Your child might be able to hear with CI, but not enough to speak and listen to a conversation..
In the end, success is defined by expectations...

Oh, it's problematic for hearing family to learn sign but not for a deaf child to learn to speak and hear... Hmmm....


btw.. when you said "Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist."... this is perhaps even more strong the other way around.
The pressure from Deaf community might even be bigger. When part of Deaf community, one has to be very strong to consider CI.. Even stronger to go through with it.. Because... any hint of wanting to hear sounds is regarded as treason.. Let alone enjoying sounds....

You're way off base on this one. I'm really surprised that you've been on AD for a number of years and still think like this. Do you browse any threads other than the CI thread on AD?


Nobody wants to lose their family and friends...

Sounds like you're saying if we choose not to implant, we will have no family or friends. This is exactly where we keep trying to educate you that you're very much mistaken when you say things like that...would be nice if you actually take in this kind of information instead of dismissing.

I notice you have a lot of opinions, which is fine, but do you ever once say to any AD member:" wow, I learned something new from you, thanks! This will help me understand my daughter better."

Never seen you say that ever.

 

[flip]

There will alway be doubt at any decision one makes. Only time will remove the doubt bit by bit. And that goes both ways. Yes/no for CI.
People that choose not to let their child hear, and raise the child with signlanguage will also have their doubts about their decision. Only in time, seeing that their decision was good, that communication is established, friends are made, school is going well.. all these factors help to grind away the doubt.

Parents that make the choice for CI will have gone through an emotional process leading to their decision, and with it there will will be doubts. Will it work. How successful will it be... Only when CI is activated this doubt will be (for most) reduced when communication is established etc. like with the decision to raise a child deaf.
For me, and many other parents that have made the same decision, any doubts about making the decision TO have faded away. For some faster than for others..

The problems start - in any of the choices made - with communication. When this is not established from day 1, there will be problems. When the child cannot hear, and the parents don't use signs: there will be problems. When the child learns sign, but the parents don't: there will be problems. When the parents decide for CI, but do not establish a form of communication before the child can here: there will be problems. When a child has CI and the parents think that the problems are fixed now.. there will be problems..
When a someone that has been deaf all his/her life and decided to "try" a CI expecting to hear: there will be problems..

Any decision a parent (or any other person) takes regarding CI requires full involvement in the process. Whether learning to use sign language (fluently) or to (help) learn make sense out of the new input. No involvement - no success. And even with that.. success is not guaranteed..
Your child might be fluent in sign language, have many deaf friends, be happy in the Deaf world, but in a family setting the parents have to be interpreters.. Contact with the nearby family and friends is a problem. Your child might be able to hear with CI, but not enough to speak and listen to a conversation..
In the end, success is defined by expectations...

If you expect CI the give you hearing.. you might be disappointed. If you expect sign language is solving the communication gap, you might be disappointed.

But... when it works... when the decision turns out to be successful.. when all the studying you have done has paid off, when all the attention to your child proves to be working... parents have all the right to be proud of it, and to share it. Whether their child is deaf or can hear.

btw.. when you said "Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist."... this is perhaps even more strong the other way around.
The pressure from Deaf community might even be bigger. When part of Deaf community, one has to be very strong to consider CI.. Even stronger to go through with it.. Because... any hint of wanting to hear sounds is regarded as treason.. Let alone enjoying sounds....
Nobody wants to lose their family and friends...

Parents have been saying those things for years, and hoh/deaf people have been unhappy how they were raised for years. Time to move on anyone? No? Ok

 

[flip]

No speech therapy... she never had it...
... on the latter part... what claim was that?

That answer tell me you didn't understand the post. Never mind.

 

[Cloggy]

There will alway be doubt at any decision one makes. Only time will remove the doubt bit by bit. And that goes both ways. Yes/no for CI.
People that choose not to let their child hear,

Ok, I have a HUGE issue with the word "let" - it's like you're saying a parent is withholding the child's hearing and deciding to "let" the child have it back. No, there was no "letting" or "permission given" - it's a parent paying the doctor to go ahead and implant a CI into their child's body whether or not the child asked for it.
OK.. replace "let" with "providing the ability to hear"..
The child never asks for it. The child is too young.. Been there before.. Parents make the decision.. Guess you don't agree... Shall we go there again... How for CI the (scientifically proven) outcome is best when done early???

...and raise the child with signlanguage will also have their doubts about their decision. Only in time, seeing that their decision was good, that communication is established, friends are made, school is going well.. all these factors help to grind away the doubt.

Your daughter is still young yet. Wait till she graduates from university before you say her progress has ground away any doubts.
Can you hear yourself "wait until... " You cannot imagine it works, can you..???:roll: You cannot imagine that doubts about us taking the right decision are gone. Would something happen later in life, new decisions can be made. But the decision to choose CI for Lotte is a succes. Forfilled all expectations...

Parents that make the choice for CI will have gone through an emotional process leading to their decision, and with it there will will be doubts. Will it work. How successful will it be... Only when CI is activated this doubt will be (for most) reduced when communication is established etc. like with the decision to raise a child deaf.

You made a decision to raise a deaf child? Um, wasn't that decision made at the time of her conception?Funny you..
No.. that would be some other parents.. "decision to raise a child deaf." as in making the decision for the child not to be able to hear but to raise the child without the ability to hear...
OK... hope this cleared it up for you

For me, and many other parents that have made the same decision, any doubts about making the decision TO have faded away. For some faster than for others..

Any decision a parent (or any other person) takes regarding CI requires full involvement in the process. Whether learning to use sign language (fluently) or to (help) learn make sense out of the new input. No involvement - no success. And even with that.. success is not guaranteed..
Your child might be fluent in sign language, have many deaf friends, be happy in the Deaf world, but in a family setting the parents have to be interpreters..

No, they don't have to be interpreters. They teach their child how to communicate for themselves. My parents never interpreted for me, they would literally give me a shove and say "I am not going to ask them, you ask." or "If you didn't hear what they said, just ask them to repeat or write it down." My parents were insistent that I learn independence from a very young age.Very wise parents... ..
So your experience is how we should see the rest of all the deaf people out there? btw.. No way parents out there would feel a need to interpret for their child.??

Contact with the nearby family and friends is a problem. Your child might be able to hear with CI, but not enough to speak and listen to a conversation..
In the end, success is defined by expectations...

Oh, it's problematic for hearing family to learn sign but not for a deaf child to learn to speak and hear... Hmmm....Learning to sign is not a problem... if you sign day in and day out.. Like learning another language. Anyone can.. if you are exposed to it you can learn it fluently.. That would be the immediate family.. So.. the rest of the world needs to sign because someone is deaf. France should learn Chinese because there's a Chinese person that emigrated to France..??
How is the MExican grandmother keep up with ASL signlanguage to communicate with her grandson living in Toronto? Pure willpower?? Or.. would it be nice if the boy would be able to learn Spanish and French and Enlish and speak to his grandmother...


btw.. when you said "Even those who takes input from the deaf community or linquistics, are still under pressure from oralist."... this is perhaps even more strong the other way around.
The pressure from Deaf community might even be bigger. When part of Deaf community, one has to be very strong to consider CI.. Even stronger to go through with it.. Because... any hint of wanting to hear sounds is regarded as treason.. Let alone enjoying sounds....

You're way off base on this one. I'm really surprised that you've been on AD for a number of years and still think like this. Do you browse any threads other than the CI thread on AD? Yes.. and other messageboards.. Have you?

Nobody wants to lose their family and friends...

Sounds like you're saying if we choose not to implant, we will have no family or friends. This is exactly where we keep trying to educate you that you're very much mistaken when you say things like that...would be nice if you actually take in this kind of information instead of dismissing.Not dismissing anyting. I can see on Alldeaf that there's excellent friendships.. I can also see that there's a lot of problems between members and their parents. Can't you..??
I can see that a lot of the info to "us parents" is coming from miscommunication between parents and their deaf children..
But "Nobody wants to lose their family and friends..." is meant in the way that the Deaf community is providing the family and friends that some people never experienced with their own family before. It's a very powerfull connection.
"Sound of Fury" demonstrated that very well...

I notice you have a lot of opinions, which is fine, but do you ever once say to any AD member:" wow, I learned something new from you, thanks! This will help me understand my daughter better."

Never seen you say that ever.

Never?
I have stated many times that I have learned and am learning a lot here..
But if your opinion about learning is "seeing it only our way" then .. NO.. I haven't learned anything..

If you come with the argument ".. implant a CI into their child's body whether or not the child asked for it." you haven't paying much attention.. Just pushing your arguments..

But I have learned a lot. For example..
If you start a thread here about deaf parents talking about their decision to let there deaf child hear (yes.. I use "let" again).. the thread will be removed asap...
For some reason, arguments of those deaf people, deaf parents, should not be shown on AllDeaf...

 

[DeafCaroline]

Yes, I can imagine CIs work. You are a hearing person who evidently only knows one person who is deaf, your daughter. that's not the same case for me. I know many deaf adults with CIs and many of them are currently learning ASL. They tell me things that they won't say to their own parents because they didn't want to make them upset.

It's the same for me here - there are many things I've written about here on AD that I can never bring up with my family for many complicated reasons.

It's premature to say all doubts have been erased when your child is still so young yet.

Yes, I do browse other threads and I do read about deaf people and deaf culture. I'm deaf, remember? I have a wider interest in deaf matters than you apparently who seem to focus only on CI-related subjects.

Not understanding your last sentence - you're saying deaf parents talking about "letting" their deaf kids hear should not be allowed on AD?

As for pushing my argument, well, you're doing the same for yours.

 

[GrendelQ]

I notice you have a lot of opinions, which is fine, but do you ever once say to any AD member:" wow, I learned something new from you, thanks! This will help me understand my daughter better."

Never seen you say that ever.

I have. I've seen Cloggy take and synthesize input from the Deaf community, with gratitude, looking back through his many years here starting well before I began reading regularly almost 5 years ago.

And I've also seen him (and others) as a great source of information and inspiration, and I'm surprised that you don't find that to be the case as well, especially when it comes to topics that he has experience with -- raising a deaf child, making a decision about CIs, etc. -- that most here don't have. Fewer and fewer stick around given the reception, but still, there's a regular stream of new parents of deaf children who stop by looking for information about what it means to be deaf (which those who are themselves deaf can provide) and what's involved in raising deaf kids and making decisions about technology and language and the current state of academic placement (which those who are both deaf and hearing and have raised or are now raising deaf children can provide).

That handful of us who are hearing and deaf parents of deaf kids can and do learn a lot from this community, and can also provide a great deal of info. about what our children are experiencing both to this community and to the next generation of new parents who come here. But the deaf community here and beyond is not homogeneous, so some of us may be listening to those who are deaf/hoh, as you suggest: listening to the majority of those who say go mainstream (whether with ASL or oral support) or deaf school (oral) vs. a minority who advise that deaf kids need to learn in an ASL environment.