Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

[jillio]

Jillo AVT has changed a bit since your son was in AVT. We are now taught not to cover our mouths. We are taught to use a more natural way. We still focus on the hearing. When I am doing therapy with my students I have them sit next to me. Better hearing ear to me. If they really try to focus on my mouth then I move my face where they cannot see my mouth moving. That computer program you talk about, it really is not used much any more. I actually have the program in my class but I do not use it because it is not really a natual way to teach speech. I do use it as a fun game but not when I am focusing on the vocabulary and language development. WIth the age group I work with I am not focused on articulaton but on vocabulary and language development.

The bolded quotes indicate that perhaps AVT has not changed as much as you would like to believe it has. You are still focusing on the child's weakest sense. And if you are moving your face so a student cannot use visual cues to lip read and frocingthem to rely on that weakest sense, you are further disabling that child.

It is really a shame that they don't use the computer programs anymore, It wa one of the few things that my son, and the other chidlren in his class enjoyed. It made learning a joy, and allowed them to learn peripherally while having fun, rather than being directed and regimented during the entire timethey were int he class, and refusing to respond to them if they did not pronounce words correctly while hiding visula cues from them that would facilitate understanding and communictation.

 

[jillio]

Jackie,

You are taking the words right out of my mouth (don't worry my foot is still there).

That is how it was with us. We just made certain to always talk and explain things to our daughter, and to use words to describe what we were doing or what was happening around her.

An advantage we had is that not only did my wife have a masters in Special Ed but she had taught grades 1 or 2 before our daughter was born. She is great at taking anything, like a trip to the beach and making it a fun event talking about the waves, the sand, the water, etc without our daughter ever knowing that she was getting s&L therapy all the while.

As I am certain you experienced as well, not only did our kids learn to speak but we have, and escpecially my wife, have an extremely close relationship with our daughter as we talk often and about everything.

These people who talk about "hours of therapy" really have no clue. Maybe it was for them, but not for my child.
Rick

Remember, your daughter did not have AVT. She had speech and language therapy. You are attempting to extrapolate on something you have never even used, or been exposed to. Give it up. This is nothing more than a thinly disquised attempt to manipulate jackie back into thinking that you are on her side.

 

[R2D2]

Yea, it is a choice and it should be a personal one whether it is not to implant or to implant. I think it is not worth arguing over it cuz people are gonna do what they want to do.

Agreed. However, I still feel there is value in exchanging experiences so that people can raise their children sensitively and thoughtfully. Hearing parents can learn from deaf adults and deaf parents can learn from adult CODAs.

 

[R2D2]

I count myself fortunate that I never encountered this philosophy when I was growing up. I would have loathed it. I know from personal experience I'd not have had much success of making sense of words that I heard but was unable to lipread. When I wore my hearing aid, all I could have could have told you if the speaker on the radio was male or female. That's it.

While I think AVT is a useful tool for learning to listen, you must be able to benefit well enough from HAS or CIs for it to work.

I agree with you. If I'd been exposed to it I am sure I would have loathed it too because as a child, I was very sensitive to any correction or made to feel like I wasn't getting it right all the time. That's why I asked to give up music at school. I'm glad I had a mother who refrained from correction and boring repetition.

I can understand why many deaf people have negative feelings about AVT when conducted in this manner. Especially people like Buffalo who were physically disciplined for making mistakes.

 

[shel90]

The bolded quotes indicate that perhaps AVT has not changed as much as you would like to believe it has. You are still focusing on the child's weakest sense. And if you are moving your face so a student cannot use visual cues to lip read and frocingthem to rely on that weakest sense, you are further disabling that child.

It is really a shame that they don't use the computer programs anymore, It wa one of the few things that my son, and the other chidlren in his class enjoyed. It made learning a joy, and allowed them to learn peripherally while having fun, rather than being directed and regimented during the entire timethey were int he class, and refusing to respond to them if they did not pronounce words correctly while hiding visula cues from them that would facilitate understanding and communictation.

I dont really understand the point of moving the mouth away from the child who is trying to read the lips...it is bad enough that the message is not being signed but to remove the mouth away from the child's field of vision. No wonder the kids are not getting full access to language...they arent getting it! Now, I am starting to see the root of the problems of the many students we get who are delayed of language. The focus was spent too much on their weakest sense therefore depriving them of language development. I think I am gonna throw up...see u later. I am gonna cry.

 

[Tousi]

I dont really understand the point of moving the mouth away from the child who is trying to read the lips...it is bad enough that the message is not being signed but to remove the mouth away from the child's field of vision. No wonder the kids are not getting full access to language...they arent getting it! Now, I am starting to see the root of the problems of the many students we get who are delayed of language. The focus was spent too much on their weakest sense therefore depriving them of language development. I think I am gonna throw up...see u later. I am gonna cry.

I think Jackie said they are trending away from this technique.

 

[jillio]

I agree with you. If I'd been exposed to it I am sure I would have loathed it too because as a child, I was very sensitive to any correction or made to feel like I wasn't getting it right all the time. That's why I asked to give up music at school. I'm glad I had a mother who refrained from correction and boring repetition.

I can understand why many deaf people have negative feelings about AVT when conducted in this manner. Especially people like Buffalo who were physically disciplined for making mistakes.

And how would you have felt as a child if someone turned their face from you to force you to use your hearing for comprehension?

 

[jillio]

I think Jackie said they are trending away from this technique.

No, she said they did not cover their mouth anymore, but if a child was focusing too much on looking at her mouth and trying to lipread, she turns to make them use their "hearing". Same difference. Preventing a child from using their stonger sens (vision) and forcing them to rely ontheir weakest sense (auditory).

 

[shel90]

I think Jackie said they are trending away from this technique.

I better stop talking about this method before I get into a tirade cuz I am feeling sick about this. I cant believe that the oral deaf ed programs do this to these children who are starving for access to language. This is the wrong time for me to discuss it right now. Maybe later. Thanks

 

[fredfam1]

Follow The Money Trail

It is not really about trying to "change" Deaf people into hearing people,
Or even "Mak'ing Deaf people Normal" Though that is what the "Money
Trail" people would have the worlds "DO-Gooders" think. It is only about
funding research and making money and more research and more money
and more govt agencies to oversea the making of more money. But you
would be led to believe that the DG's only have Deaf peoples best intrests
at heart. And in the meantime the "Social Scientists" are throwing you the
"Argument Bones" and they are watching and charting and writing scientific
papers on the "Dynamics of Social Change" in minority groups so they can
get more money to fund their research add infinitum! The communications
on these topics that you have are being monitored and used in someones
research paper and nobody really cares what the outcome is. The same
things happened in the seventys when the "SS"tists tried to manipulate
the think in those of us who were teens at the time. They told us plainly
that our parents thinking and morals were out dated and archaic and if
you really wanted to be enlightened and intelligent you must choose your
own path. (Remember the book "Johnathan Livingston Seagull"? Required reading. So after nearly 15 years of screwing up my own life trying
to embrace "Enlightened" concepts of that time, I came back to my parents
values and morals and I am a married stay at home mom with 7 children.

That is what I was meant to be and that is what I do. And I still get crap
from my peers about it. "What are you going to do now?" "Any plans for jobs or education?" Are you really going to waste your education like that?" See how we have lost perspective? Every thing I ever learned or did enables me
to be a better parent and that is the most important thing I have ever done
or ever will do in my life.

 

[jillio]

I dont really understand the point of moving the mouth away from the child who is trying to read the lips...it is bad enough that the message is not being signed but to remove the mouth away from the child's field of vision. No wonder the kids are not getting full access to language...they arent getting it! Now, I am starting to see the root of the problems of the many students we get who are delayed of language. The focus was spent too much on their weakest sense therefore depriving them of language development. I think I am gonna throw up...see u later. I am gonna cry.

I agree,shel It is nothing short of cruel.

 

[jillio]

It is not really about trying to "change" Deaf people into hearing people,
Or even "Mak'ing Deaf people Normal" Though that is what the "Money
Trail" people would have the worlds "DO-Gooders" think. It is only about
funding research and making money and more research and more money
and more govt agencies to oversea the making of more money. But you
would be led to believe that the DG's only have Deaf peoples best intrests
at heart. And in the meantime the "Social Scientists" are throwing you the
"Argument Bones" and they are watching and charting and writing scientific
papers on the "Dynamics of Social Change" in minority groups so they can
get more money to fund their research add infinitum! The communications
on these topics that you have are being monitored and used in someones
research paper and nobody really cares what the outcome is. The same
things happened in the seventys when the "SS"tists tried to manipulate
the think in those of us who were teens at the time. They told us plainly
that our parents thinking and morals were out dated and archaic and if
you really wanted to be enlightened and intelligent you must choose your
own path. (Remember the book "Johnathan Livingston Seagull"? Required reading. So after nearly 15 years of screwing up my own life trying
to embrace "Enlightened" concepts of that time, I came back to my parents
values and morals and I am a married stay at home mom with 7 children.

That is what I was meant to be and that is what I do. And I still get crap
from my peers about it. "What are you going to do now?" "Any plans for jobs or education?" Are you really going to waste your education like that?" See how we have lost perspective? Every thing I ever learned or did enables me
to be a better parent and that is the most important thing I have ever done
or ever will do in my life.

I don't see many implant manufacturers offering this new miracle for free, not do I see many surgeons performing surgeries for free. Not to mention the audies who increase their income by return visits of the CI implanted. So much for altruism.

 

[R2D2]

And how would you have felt as a child if someone turned their face from you to force you to use your hearing for comprehension?

I wouldn't have liked it. But this didn't happen so I have no negative feelings about learning to hear and speak, because it was done in a positive way that acknowledged my feelings. All I was saying was that I could understand the feelings of those who had gone through that method because I probably would have felt the same. I am not sure if you read all my post.

 

[jillio]

I wouldn't have liked it. But this didn't happen so I have no negative feelings about learning to hear and speak, because it was done in a positive way that acknowledged my feelings. All I was saying was that I could understand the feelings of those who had gone through that method because I probably would have felt the same.

That was my point. Intentionally taking the visual cues away from a child creates frustration and anger in a child. You were lucky not to have experienced this, but it is unfortunatley a practice that continues insome oral programs.

 

[fredfam1]

Amen

Its a view that is far too prevalent, and needs to be confronted. The only way to change is is to confront those who hold the mistaken beliefs about their mistaken beliefs. Especially in the educational arena, because it has the potential to do so much harm to so many.

I took an online psych class and was really enjoying it up untill the time
that I said language can be aquired and used at a very early age and
gave the example of my son signing milk at 5 1/2 months.

My prof would have none of that and we argued back and forth, his position
beign that this was not really true language aquisition and that it had to be
oral for that to occur! I only got a C in that class. sigh

My son was not in my line of sight when he first did this. He stuck his arms
straight up in the air and repeatedly squeezed his fists. He was HUNGRY and
he knew this sign would get results. But HE DECIDED that! At 5 1/2 months!
Do not tel me that is not Language Aquisition.

I tried to change his mind but I don't think I did. sigh

 

[Tousi]

No, she said they did not cover their mouth anymore, but if a child was focusing too much on looking at her mouth and trying to lipread, she turns to make them use their "hearing". Same difference. Preventing a child from using their stonger sens (vision) and forcing them to rely ontheir weakest sense (auditory).

OIC, I din't see/remember that additional detail....

 

[Maria]

Sorry, but cloggy does not understand personal choice in terms of the individual. He only understands personal choice in terms of forcinghis choice ont he individual. That is not choice, it is dominance.

You are right about dominance. I have to agree about this part. That's how I see it.

 

[R2D2]

I don't see many implant manufacturers offering this new miracle for free, not do I see many surgeons performing surgeries for free. Not to mention the audies who increase their income by return visits of the CI implanted. So much for altruism.

Sorry, but the audies can't just see CIers in just one visit. It's necessary for repeat visits to get the CI remapped and reprogrammed. The visits grow further apart as time goes on.

This isn't a battle between good and evil. Many doctors, audiologists etc care very much about their work and they aren't any more greedy than any other professionals, although I'm sure there are some bad eggs there as with anywhere else.

I think we should be careful about generalising here. It just paints everything in terms of black and white with nothing in between.

 

[fredfam1]

I don't see many implant manufacturers offering this new miracle for free, not do I see many surgeons performing surgeries for free. Not to mention the audies who increase their income by return visits of the CI implanted. So much for altruism.

That is exactly my point. The medical community insists they are only
trying to make life better for the Deaf person. You are correct if they
really were thinking of helping, it would be free, but then even free
things require research and that requires funding and that requires some
one to supply the money, who has a business who profits, etc. What do
you think MetroGuy? You are the business guru.

 

[Cloggy]

................The implanted child is being 'married' for life with a cochlear implant, doesn't have to with hearing aids. See the differences? ..........

The implanted child can hear with a cochlear implant, cannot with hearing aids. Hear the differences?