Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

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OF COURSE you don't.

But I'll explain anyway- it's not the fact, it's the intention she have that matters.
And it was rethorical question.





I am so very sorry about your husband. That must have been very difficult.
Nevertheless, you don't know how things would turn out if your husband was alive. I don't doubt he, like you, would be willing to go to a great lenghts to provide to your child best of everything, but sometimes circumstances arise that no matter what a person wishes to do, it simply can not be done.
You don't know what would happened if there was two of you.

Whatever the case,
in no way Neecy's parents were any less good parenst than you just because they decided to stay in the same place, and not go for School for the Deaf anywhere else, either. The outcome is, that after all Neecy is no less happy and succesful than your son is.


Fuzzy

Thank you for your condolences. And you are right that I cannot say with absolute certainty that my husband would have acted as I predict. I can, however, make an educated guess based on what I knew of him, his values, and his philosophies. There would have been an additional option available had he found it impossible to relocate due to work concerns. He could have remained where he was, my son and I could have relocated during the week, and commuted on weekends and holidays. While this is not the ideal arrangement, it is an alternative depending upon your goals. I do know that my husband was very committed to the philosophy of a total communication atmosphere, and did whatever he could to ensure that our home was bilingual. He also placed education as a priority, and I might add that he was also a physician.

I do know that my son would have had many more advantages had his father not died at such a young age. Simply having a father would have provided a tremendous asset. Unfortunately, that is not the way life worked out, so it was left to me to make the decisions that were necessary. I can honestly say, however, that I did not finalize a single decision without first asking myself if I was confident in the fact that I was providing for our son what his father would have also wanted for him. That is all I could do in the circumstance.
 
No need to get defensive. I simply asked a question. So there were no day programs in your area?

I was the ONLY deaf child in my area. The ONLY one. So no, there were no deaf day programs available. I lived in a town with a population of maybe 2000. To give you an example, I didn't have a class with more than 5 students until I was in fifth grade. I was fortunate that my fifth grade teacher had a deaf brother. She taught me some sign language, and we started a noon-time sign club!

So as I said - not everybody has the access or the ability to fully integrate a deaf child with the deaf world, and if that's the case, its NOT the end of the world, either.
 
and I might add that he was also a physician.

Ahhh. Since I have a physician in family, too, and physician friends, I know how easy it is for them to move and find a job. Particulary when one has a specialty that is sought after everywhere.
But not all people have this great asset of having an occupation that provides employment anytime, anyplace and with good starting salary.

And while your plans in your situation indeed had legs to stand on, not every wife has a husband (or vice versa) with means to support her and their child/ren miles away from home.

And then the question remains - is it, indeed, such a neccessity to relocate in order to make your child "succesful"? Is it the only way to ensure child's happiness and future?
personally, I think what matters most is parent's unconditional love, their total support and instilling good moral values that ensure a happy, succesfull future for the child.
In no way am I knocking down what you did- I admire it, actually,
but let's not get from one extreme to the other, like from "CI and oral only" to relocating in order to appease your deaf child.



Fuzzy
 
I'd like to ask a question - just WHY is it so vital that a deaf child communicate with other deaf children? Why is the assumption automatically made that the child will have ACCESS to other deaf children right off the bat?

Yes, I went deaf when I was 9 years old, and NO, I didn't meet any deaf children while I was a child! Did my parents "prevent me" from meeting any? Far from it- we lived in a location that was more than 500 miles from the nearest deaf community. Traveling that far was out of question just to meet deaf children. I did know several deaf adults - but they communicated like I did - orally/lipreading. I didn't meet any deaf "peers" until I was 22 and went to RIT/NTID. Does that mean I was deprived in any way? Far from it- I had an incredibly happy, full life. Just realize - While communication with the deaf community is a good thing for a child (and not in the whole "deaf pride" aspect either - but to allow the child to meet others like them,) a child's happiness and wholesomeness does NOT hinge on their talking to other deaf children.



Is it not possible to make lifelong hearing friends? I did. I don't base who I become friends with on their deafness or lack thereof. I don't know anybody who would.
I can answer that neecy. It's because of the psychological impact. I remember vividly being in elementary school, and thinking that I was the only one in the world who was dhh. I remember going to counseling and telling the counselor that I felt like I didn't fit in. The feeling of not fitting in (and no....not just in the adolescent awkward stage that almost EVERYONE goes through)is just so painful. I can't even articulate it. Certainly a dhh kid can grow up "maxstreamed", and have a rich happy life. But it does seem that a lot of times when that happens, the kid just ends up really isolated.
I have to say that I really do believe that my being "maxstreamed" really did play a significent part in my depression and low self esteem issues.
Oh, and I think that perfect placement really depends on the type of resources available.
I think for early childhood, most kids need to go to a program for the Deaf. If their parents want a mainstream setting, then they can do a split placement.
I disagree strongly with automaticly assuming that the mainstream (regular classes, regular school and mild accomondations available) is the best placement. So often all they get are teachers who don't know ANYTHING about how to educate kids like us. I atteneded a state college, where there was a HUGE teacher training program. I knew more about teaching dhh kids then virtually ALL my friends who were training to be teachers!
I also think that Schools for the Deaf are very underutilized.
 
Deaf parents keeping their children AWAY from CI are also not giving them FREE WILL to chose, but make choice for their children by themselves.

Deaf parents beleive it's an individual choice, if a child wants a cochlear implant, then the deaf parents should respect the child's decision. It's their life.


And don't give me ""while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds"" because such a position is a rarity here.

There are some deaf who strongly support Deaf Culture that only believes that ASL is the right choice for deaf children, should only introduce deaf children to ASL, on the other hand there are deaf people who supports both worlds believes that deaf children should have that opportunity to learn all communication methods that is available to them.


so no CI for your kids from YOU either, huh Cheri? what happened to the "best of BOTH worlds"?

My kids were born hearing and are hearing, Fuzzy

They're into a hearing world because of their hearing status, I don't force them to enter my world just because I'm a deaf parent.

And I don't even force them to learn my language either, If they want to learn signs for all that means I'll be more than grateful to teach them, but it was never a requirement.
 
Kind of like a hearing parent ignoring the warning signs of their child's need for visual cues in language and communication, huh? Creates a big car wreck for the child, but the child is not the one responsible for the accident. But they are the one that suffers the consequences.

*nodding agreement* that's what I thought as I typed my previous post to response their comparison with CI and car.

I am surprised that some posters see it different, that's not what I am talking about... You said exactly what I said in my mind.
 
Ahhh. Since I have a physician in family, too, and physician friends, I know how easy it is for them to move and find a job. Particulary when one has a specialty that is sought after everywhere.
But not all people have this great asset of having an occupation that provides employment anytime, anyplace and with good starting salary.

And while your plans in your situation indeed had legs to stand on, not every wife has a husband (or vice versa) with means to support her and their child/ren miles away from home.

And then the question remains - is it, indeed, such a neccessity to relocate in order to make your child "succesful"? Is it the only way to ensure child's happiness and future?
personally, I think what matters most is parent's unconditional love, their total support and instilling good moral values that ensure a happy, succesfull future for the child.
In no way am I knocking down what you did- I admire it, actually,
but let's not get from one extreme to the other, like from "CI and oral only" to relocating in order to appease your deaf child.

Actually, when I spoke of dual households, it was not with the expectations that my husband would support both. He died young, and as such, he had not achieved the status of a physician who has been in practice for any number of years. Medical school is an expensive proposition, opening a new practice even more so. We were still paying off school loans, equipment loans, etc. at the time of his death. We were comfortable, but far from the upper regions of income. I worked, as well.

I never implied that this was the only way to insure a child's success, simply that it is one way. Too often I hear the words "I can't" when the wording should, in reality be, "I won't." Either way, it is the parents' decision. I'm only saying that when that decision is made, be honest about your reasons for doing so. I do not expect that every parent would go to the lengths that I did, nor that every parent has the means to do so. For some, the honest answer is, "I can't". No matter how many ways you view the situation, the opportunity simply cannot be created. For many more, however, the opportunity can be found with a little creative planning, but the willingness to do so is not there. For those parents, the answer is "I won't."

I will agree that my situation is at one end of the spectrum, and that the oral-only parents ware at the other end of the spectrum. The majority fall somewhere in between. I shared my experience only to illustrate the fact that alternate solutions are quite often available, if only one is willing to look for and take advantage of them. Most alternatives involve far less change than my illustration. Most of the time, it is not a lack of opportunty, but a lack of willingness to do what must be done to take advantage of that opportunity, or a failure to recognize that the opportunity is even available.

I am in no way implying that the solutions I chose are the solutions that everyone should choose. I'm only pointing out that the possibility is there. As long as the possibilty is there, then it is a matter of willingness, not of opportunity. Just as in my decision not to implant my son. It isn't that the possibilty wa not available, but that I was unwilling to take that action. I take full responsibility for that, and my reasons for doing so are valid to mine and my son's situation. But in the end, the responsibility is mine, and I have to be honest about the fact that I made my choice not on availability, but for other reasons. I don't have a problem with other's decisions as long as they are honestly representing the reasons behind those decisions. I do not beleive that we ourselves justice, nor our children either, when we delude ourselves into believing that we were prevented from a particular couse of action, rather than admitting that we were unwilling to take a particular couse of action. There is nothing wrong in deciding not to......only in the failure to admit that it was a conscious decision to do so, and then support that decision with reasons that are valid to our particular situation.

Parents quite often have a more self centered motivation for their choices than they are willing to admit, myself included. To be quite honest, my moving and starting over had a very selfish component. I was unwilling to separate from my child and send him to a residential school. That was based on my need to have my child with me. I do not pretend to be more self sacrificing than the next person. I had self centered concerns behind my decisions as well. But I have found that my son and I are both better served if I honestly admit that there were self centered concerns, and that they influenced some parts of my decisions rather than deluding myself into believing that they were not there, and that I was some exceptionally nobel and self sacrificing parent who never considered my own needs. Of course I considered my own needs, as all parents do. The only difference between me and another parent is that I am willing to admit that...not just to myself, or my son, but to anyone who asks.

And, I must tell you, that I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this all reasonably with you, Fuzzy. Differences in opinion do not have to be cause for conflict. I personally believe that the coflict comes not fromthe difference in opinion, but from the attempt to justify, rather than validate, our reasons for our position. The need to jsutify comes from a basic insecurity in the validity of our reasoning, and leads to attempts to prove the other wrong in order to prove ourselves right. It is possible, however, for both to be right from our own individual perspectives when we are honest about our motivation and reasons.
 
If I am not mistaken, I beleive we are discussing the perceptions of some hearing educators and professionals of the CI and the CI user. Benefits as applied to individuals is not really an issue.

If I am not mistaken, I beleive we are discussing the perceptions of some hearing educators and professionals of the CI and the CI user. How you had all the opportunity to move just for your son is not really an issue.
 
Why is it non-sense?, Jillo brought up a good point. Why are you trying to shut your daughter out on the other side of the world? I'm very curious on your point of view, Cloggy.
I'm not. That's the whole point...

Deaf children with cochlear implants don't have free will to choose, Parents make the choice which world the child should explore to, while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds, don't you think it'll be fair for the child to know both worlds?

Deaf children without cochlear implants don't have free will to choose, Parents make the choice which world the child should explore to, while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds, don't you think it'll be fair for the child to know both worlds?
 
Quote:
so no CI for your kids from YOU either, huh Cheri? what happened to the "best of BOTH worlds"?

My kids were born hearing and are hearing, Fuzzy

I don't care if your children were born hearing or deaf or whatever Cheri.
As I already explained to Angel it's the INTENT that counts not factual situation. Suppose your children were born deaf, what would you do?
Don't shove that pretty head of yours into the sand, have a decency to answer truthfully considering BELOW:

~ do you CHERI understand that it is early implantation that provides best outcome from having CI, and once you MISS this window of opportunity before the child is two, it will never be recovered?
That means the theory "let the children decide" is as good as last year snow to make snowman TODAY. If you decide, decide NOW now when the child is NOT YET over two.
Deaf parents beleive it's an individual choice, if a child wants a cochlear implant, then the deaf parents should respect the child's decision. It's their life.


And hearing parents even more so can can give a child both choices WITHOUT robbing a child from an opportunity to hear,
like it sadly a lot of deaf parents do.

And, I must tell you, that I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this all reasonably with you, Fuzzy. Differences in opinion do not have to be cause for conflict. I personally believe that the coflict comes not fromthe difference in opinion, but from the attempt to justify, rather than validate, our reasons for our position. The need to jsutify comes from a basic insecurity in the validity of our reasoning, and leads to attempts to prove the other wrong in order to prove ourselves right. It is possible, however, for both to be right from our own individual perspectives when we are honest about our motivation and reasons.


I am glad too :) You are right, plus I tend to think it's also our temper that gets the better of us :)

Fuzzy
 
As usual, you totally missed the point of the question. And if it was no struggle, why the AVT? Also, haven't you said that your daughter was post lingual?


Tsk, tsk, tsk no need to insult someone is there? After all, you are the one saying that you want to promote civil discussions?

I got the point, just showed it can be applied to a different philosophy, sorry if that offends you. Or do you think its permissible for only certain children to struggle?

Please re-read my post I said that we did not use AVT and you are wrong, my daughter was deafened prelingually, a fact I have stated many times.
 
If I am not mistaken, I beleive we are discussing the perceptions of some hearing educators and professionals of the CI and the CI user. Benefits as applied to individuals is not really an issue.


Jackie, shame on you! Have you forgotten that we are not allowed to speak about our children--only Jill is allowed to tell us about her child and her parenting skills.

Actually, the initial post is about some unidentified woman in a school. We are not even told what her position is. She is in fact, talking about an individual child with a cochlear implant.

It was you and the usual suspects who bootstrapped the comment into an indictment of all educators in the mainstream and in oral programs. So in fact, actually Jackie, as both an educator in an oral school and the parent of two children with cochlear implants, has a point of view that is the most credible on this issue. Instead of trying to prevent her from discussing her point of view, you should have asked her to expand upon it.
Rick
 
I don't care if your children were born hearing or deaf or whatever Cheri.
As I already explained to Angel it's the INTENT that counts not factual situation. Suppose your children were born deaf, what would you do?

You did not say "If" my children were born deaf, what would I do", Like I said before and again, I believe it's an individual choice, cochlear implant is a choice and The decision "to be" or "not to be" implanted is a personal choice

And hearing parents even more so can can give a child both choices WITHOUT robbing a child from an opportunity to hear,
like it sadly a lot of deaf parents do.

Alot of hearing parents robbed the child out on the ability to learned about it's deaf culture and sign language.

Having hearing is not requirement to live an independence life or to have a bright future. There are many deaf people who live an independence life and had a bright future.
 
Deaf children without cochlear implants don't have free will to choose, Parents make the choice which world the child should explore to, while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds, don't you think it'll be fair for the child to know both worlds?

That's BS Cloggy. Most members here had explored and still explores in both worlds.

I don't think it's anyone's right to neglect their deaf child to be able to explore in both worlds, to get the understanding of how both worlds are, new places, new environments, new people and experiences.
 
You did not say "If" my children were born deaf, what would I do", Like I said before and again, I believe it's an individual choice, cochlear implant is a choice and The decision "to be" or "not to be" implanted is a personal choice

And how does a child make that choice? A child, by virtue of being a child, cannot make that choice because the child lacks the maturity and intelligence required to make a well informed and reasoned decision to implant or not to implant.

That is why parents make that decision for their children.
Rick
 
I'm not. That's the whole point...



Deaf children without cochlear implants don't have free will to choose, Parents make the choice which world the child should explore to, while we advise that the child should be included in both worlds, don't you think it'll be fair for the child to know both worlds?

Huh? So, u mean that children with CIs have free will to choose to be in both worlds while children without CIs dont have that? I was forced to grow up in the hearing world growing up and I dont have a CI. If I had the opportunity to explore the Deaf world, I would have had the free will to choose either one or to be in both. CI wouldnt have made anything different so that doesnt make sense. :confused:
 
Cheri, before I start commenting on your replies ANSWER THIS, please:

Do you understand what that means:

2000-CIwithPrelinguals-Spanishre-1.jpg


Do you understand that there is practically NO POINT in implanting born deaf a child PAST the age of THREE?



Fuzzy
 
Huh? So, u mean that children with CIs have free will to choose to be in both worlds while children without CIs dont have that? I was forced to grow up in the hearing world growing up and I dont have a CI

And you Shel, do YOU?
do you understand what I wrote in my post to Cheri???


Fuzzy
 
Cheri, before I start commenting on your replies ANSWER THIS, please:

Do you understand what that means:

2000-CIwithPrelinguals-Spanishre-1.jpg


Do you understand that there is practically NO POINT in implanting born deaf a child PAST the age of THREE?



Fuzzy

Why is there no point? I have seen children who got implanted after 3 and were able to benefit greatly from them just as I have see children who got implanted before 3 but couldnt benefit much from them.
 
If I am not mistaken, I beleive we are discussing the perceptions of some hearing educators and professionals of the CI and the CI user. How you had all the opportunity to move just for your son is not really an issue.

The difference being, I was asked a specific question regarding my son, and chose to answer it. And my answer was not related to the success or failure of a CI.
 
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