From Lieblin's post # 496 : Good question...Why can't God just forgive sin, instead of demanding justice?
I have a friend who has recently turned Agnostic, and in a debate with him about the existence of a loving God, a few questions were brought up that I could not answer. The most thought-provoking questions were, "If God is all-powerful and all-forgiving, why must he send his son to die for our sins. Couldn't God just forgive the sins without sending his son down in human form to die? So what, so God dies for a few hours, how does that in any way forgive a sin..." And on and on... You get the idea. Of all the people in the world, this is one man I do not want to see reject God, and being of a philosophical mind, there is no other way to show him the truth but through theological interpretation of this Truth. I would greatly appreciate any response you could give me. Thank You.
" I ( God ) gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair; I ( God ) hid not my face from shame and spitting. " (KJV). Isaiah 50:6 - ( Old Testament )
" And the men that held ( Jesus ) mocked him, and beat him. " (KJV). Luke 22:63 - ( New Testament )
Jesus' betrayal, trail, beatin' and crucifixion :
Crucifixion typically began with a scourging or flogging of the victim’s back. The Romans used a whip called a flagrum, which consisted of small pieces of bone and metal attached to a number of leather strands. The number of blows given to Jesus is not recorded; however, the number of blows in Jewish law was 39 (one less than the 40 called for in the Torah, to prevent a counting error). During the scourging, the skin was ripped from the back, exposing a bloody mass of tissue and bone. Extreme blood loss occurred, often causing death, or at least unconsciousness. In addition to the flogging, Jesus faced severe beating and torment by the Roman soldiers, including the plucking of His beard and the piercing of His scalp with a crown of thorns.
After the flogging, the victim was often forced to carry his own crossbar, or patibulum, to the execution site. The patibulum could easily weigh 100 pounds. In the case of Jesus, the record shows that He may have carried His patibulum the distance of over two football fields. In a weak and tormented state, it’s no wonder the record establishes that Jesus needed a great deal of assistance. Once the victim arrived at the execution site, the patibulum was put on the ground and the victim was forced to lie upon it. Spikes about 7 inches long and 3/8 of an inch in diameter were driven into the wrists. The spikes would hit the area of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain up the arms to the shoulders and neck. Already standing at the crucifixion site would be the 7-foot-tall post, called a stipes. In the center of the stipes was a crude seat to “support” for the victim. The patibulum was then lifted on to the stipes, and the victim’s body was awkwardly turned on the seat so that the feet could be nailed to the stipes. At this point, there was tremendous strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders, resulting in a dislocation of the shoulder and elbow joints. The position of the nailed body held the victim’s rib cage in a fixed position, which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. Having suffered from the scourging, the beatings and the walk with the patibulum, Jesus was described as extremely weak and dehydrated. He was probably losing significant amounts of blood. As time passed, the loss of blood and lack of oxygen would cause severe cramps, spasmodic contractions and probably unconsciousness.
Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. There are several different theories on the actual cause of death for Jesus. One theory is that there was a filling of the pericardium witthe fluid, which put a fatal strain on the ability of His heart to pump blood. Another theory states that Jesus died of cardiac rupture. Another theory is that Jesus' death was “multifactorial and related primarily to hypovolemic shock, exhaustion asphyxia and perhaps acute heart failure.” Regardless of the actual medical cause of final death, the historical record is very clear -- Jesus suffered numerous hours of horrible and sustained torture on the cross of Calvary.
Crucifixion: Jesus Suffered for You and Me
The crucifixion accounts of Jesus Christ are in entire agreement with the customs and practices of the Romans in that period. The evidence for Christ’s horrible and painful death is unquestioned by today’s legitimate scholars. The only dispute is the nature and character of the “criminal” Jesus Christ. Look at the record yourself -- Even with all the pain, Jesus thought of others rather than Himself. His first words from the cross were, " Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34). He thought of His mother, who stood by the cross weeping, and asked his beloved disciple John to take care of her. On either side of Jesus were two thieves executed at the same time. When one of them accepted Jesus as Lord, Jesus shared with him, " Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise. " (Luke 23:43). Finally, Jesus expressed his complete surrender to the will of God as He said, " It is finished " : and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit." (John 19:30). " And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said: " Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46).
Investigate the historical record, and then examine your heart. Jesus gave Himself willingly for you and me. Jesus suffered a horrible death for you and me. Jesus loved us so much that He willingly died in utter shame and pain for our sins. In fact, the Bible teaches us that He who was without sin was literally "made sin" for us. God, in human form, allowed himself to be made sin to save us. On the cross, he bore all the world's sin because of His love. The only way to complete His story of love is to love Him in return.
Jesus is really God when God said " I ( God ) gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair; I ( God ) hid not my face from shame and spitting. "
I would advice you to read your own Bible to prove all this yourself. All you need to do is re-examine the Words of God in your own Bible. Re-read them until you completely understand the meanin' of the scriptures.
The question is : So, do you call God a murderer ?
. Satan did that the same thing when he said " I will " 5 times in Heaven before he was kicked out. When I said the word " world " it means government, money, Gia, and etc., etc. World-system. It also involved politics as well. And, of course I am not naive. Understand ? There's no politics in Heaven, period ! Satan is a prince of this world-system.
Are you comparing God to Nazis? Where is that coming from?
Ohhh I see... the unbeleivers have to go hell because they don't beleive in God or Jesus. I thought God and Jesus love and accept what we are, no matter what...