For those who suport NCLB..take a hard look at this cartoon

[Deafguy25]

You didn't say this at anytime before that I noticed. Why all of a sudden do you being this exclusion up. Even we deaf do not deaf being d/hoh as a disability, most mainstream schools do.

There is nothing stopping a deaf child from achieving equally to a hearing student. So, the standard should be grade level.

 

[Deafguy25]

For the bolded, that is no longer the case. Those who use ASL catch up very quickly with their hearing peers (at least, those who do not have "low reading skills"). What do you propose, then, if not ASL in teaching English? It is precisely because ASL was NOT used they had reading skills below par.

The Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition: National Norming and Performance Standards for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students

"The median Reading comprehension scores, by age, for the entire group of deaf and hard-of-hearing students in the norming sample fall largely in the Level 4: Below Basic area. Many of these students are indeed placed below grade level in school, when compared to hearing students of the same age. The 80th percentile line, which lies just below the border between Level 1 and Level 2, shows many of the top 5th of the deaf and hard-of-hearing students in the national norming sample (whose scores lie above the 80th percentile) were functioning at about Level 2: Basic Level."

So, that is saying that the average deaf student is falling "below basic" levels and even the high achievers (Top 20%) still score at "basic level".

If someone has something that is more recent and shows better outcomes, I would love to see it.

 

[KristinaB]

The Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition: National Norming and Performance Standards for Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing Students

"The median Reading comprehension scores, by age, for the entire group of deaf and hard-of-hearing students in the norming sample fall largely in the Level 4: Below Basic area. Many of these students are indeed placed below grade level in school, when compared to hearing students of the same age. The 80th percentile line, which lies just below the border between Level 1 and Level 2, shows many of the top 5th of the deaf and hard-of-hearing students in the national norming sample (whose scores lie above the 80th percentile) were functioning at about Level 2: Basic Level."

So, that is saying that the average deaf student is falling "below basic" levels and even the high achievers (Top 20%) still score at "basic level".

If someone has something that is more recent and shows better outcomes, I would love to see it.

This was also done in 2000. Over the last 10-11 years, great strides have been made.

 

[Deafguy25]

This was also done in 2000. Over the last 10-11 years, great strides have been made.

Can you show me?

 

[KristinaB]

Can you show me?

I'm not sure where to find it. I have been searching and am unable. I know I saved it to my hard drive, but I also cannot find that. I am not doing well this evening due to having a lot going on in my head. My mother has just fallen and so has my MIL, so that is more important. Also a little off-topic.

You just keep on spewing your stuff and I will just ignore it from now on, since I know what I have read.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm not sure where to find it. I have been searching and am unable. I know I saved it to my hard drive, but I also cannot find that. I am not doing well this evening due to having a lot going on in my head. My mother has just fallen and so has my MIL, so that is more important. Also a little off-topic.

You just keep on spewing your stuff and I will just ignore it from now on, since I know what I have read.

I know the feeling.
I have personally talked with teachers of the deaf and they also remark that deaf students are getting better with expressing their thoughts on paper than they did ten years ago. Perhaps jillio could provide updated info, but unfortunately she is still in the gulag.

 

[KristinaB]

I know the feeling.
I have personally talked with teachers of the deaf and they also remark that deaf students are getting better with expressing their thoughts on paper than they did ten years ago. Perhaps jillio could provide updated info, but unfortunately she is still in the gulag.

Think she's only got 4-5 days left. Hopefully soon.

Besides, I also remember talking with someone from Fulton school about this very subject and they confirmed what I was saying as well. This was just 2 years ago.

 

[deafskeptic]

Hearing kids' reading levels are just as low, across the board. That's why the government is scrambling for education reform, once again. America is rapidly sinking on the list of achievement in Science, Mathematics, and technology in the world.

If the writing samples of my hearing co-workers and the comments below the opinion webpages on the CNN website are any examples, I can believe it. :P

 

[deafskeptic]

What makes you think d/Deaf kids can't read? At least that's what I am getting from this post.

I detect a surprising audist tone coming from our DoD guy.

We have a 2-3 y/o deaf child in my Deaf church. She has been using ASL since she was 6 months old and was exposed to it at birth. Both parents are deaf. Her older sister is hearing and her baby sister is deaf. This 2-3 y/o can already read preschool and kindergarten level books. I took in a old bible of my daughter from when she was a toddler and this deaf toddler could read it. Now, there is also a deaf girl who is 19. She was forced by her family to be in mainstream and try to make it through. HA's do not help her. She learned ASL as a toddler, but her family does not sign at all. She had terps in school. She is able to both read and write on a college level, but yet, due to difficulties at birth, which caused her hearing loss, she is mentally challenged. She communicates at a 10 year old level.

She seems to have problems with verbal communication from what I can tell. Is it related to her speech? I'm a little puzzled. I know deaf with no speech skills who can write better English than me and that's saying a great deal.

 

[KristinaB]

I got some letters from some of my kids old friends back in Missouri. Their letters are just downright depressingly crappy on an educational standpoint. There were grammatical, spelling and word usage errors all through them. these kids are all hearing and are now in 10th and 11th grade.

Going back to an article that I found on a Google search, (1987) it did say at that time the study showed d/hoh students were at a 4th-6th grade level, but it also said to keep in mind, that it is just averaging all the students. That it means that while some are at a lower level, still others are much high and are at grade level. I think what deafguy25 (whoever he/she may be) is forgetting that all these studies are just averages and not exacts. That mean it basically like taking the scores of 100 and dividing by 100 to get the average. Not sure if he/she understands that. To quote something I saw on FB, "It ain't rocket science".

 

[KristinaB]

I detect a surprising audist tone coming from our DoD guy.


She seems to have problems with verbal communication from what I can tell. Is it related to her speech? I'm a little puzzled. I know deaf with no speech skills who can write better English than me and that's saying a great deal.

If you are referring to the 2nd girl I mentioned, she has absolutely no speech skills at all and it is due to birth related issues. She was the product of a drug addicted parents and the mother was beaten numerous times. She is being raised by her Aunt. She is very proficient at reading and writing and I have seen samples and was amazed. Her mannerisms are at a 10 y/o level as is her ASL skills.

 

[Berry]

Well... You didn't have to.

If you value English, fine, just say so.

The only reason countless people poopoo ASL is because it doesn't quite have a written form.

I just wish tests can assess how well a child understands the world around them.

We've seen many people who master English, master Math, and master science and they seem so stupid in life. This is the reason I don't really care about these. Yes, they help you get ahead in life. But not always.

Passing tests do NOT help you get ahead in LIFE. They help you get a better pay check. NOT the same.

Mmmm....

Are you against the idea of testing students to measure academic progress? (Not talking about NCLB standard testing, just testing in general)

I am.

A child should be tested for progress on that which they have studied.

You see children, by their very nature are curious about the world and WANT to learn. They just don't ALWAYS want to learn what the teacher wants to teach them at the time the teacher wants to teach them.

The interesting thing is that if you teach a child what they WANT to learn they will learn those things they need to know in order to learn it. Usually this means acquiring skills in math and reading.

As the child changes and their interest widen they will change, add too, or amend, what they want to learn.

Most teachers force children to learn. A great teacher inspires children to learn.

Most of the things considered "essential" to learn in school could be better taught through games, dance, songs, and play, than with traditional methods.

You can't read and write in ASL, sorry. If a Deaf child is going to be literate in the US, they need to learn English.

The definition of literate as "being able to read and write" is both over rated and out dated.

When people speak of "Classics" now days they do not mean Tolstoi or Shakespeare -- They are referring to "Casablanca" and "Star Wars". They mean The Beetles and Hank Williams SR. They mean Red Skelton and "I Love Lucy." They seldom refer to a book any more.

The printed page is no longer the sacred repository of knowledge and wisdom. It is digital media that can, and does, record sight, sound, and captioning, for posterity. It records expressions, tone of voice -- and complete ASL.

Reading and writing books are handy, and I enjoy both, but camcorders and computers are superior.

 

[Berry]

Statement:

At this writing schools are designed to train obedient workers capable of following written instructions.

Question:

What would schools be like if they were designed for a better purpose?

 

[posts from hell]

Passing tests do NOT help you get ahead in LIFE. They help you get a better pay check. NOT the same.






I am.

A child should be tested for progress on that which they have studied.

You see children, by their very nature are curious about the world and WANT to learn. They just don't ALWAYS want to learn what the teacher wants to teach them at the time the teacher wants to teach them.

The interesting thing is that if you teach a child what they WANT to learn they will learn those things they need to know in order to learn it. Usually this means acquiring skills in math and reading.

As the child changes and their interest widen they will change, add too, or amend, what they want to learn.

Most teachers force children to learn. A great teacher inspires children to learn.

Most of the things considered "essential" to learn in school could be better taught through games, dance, songs, and play, than with traditional methods.



The definition of literate as "being able to read and write" is both over rated and out dated.

When people speak of "Classics" now days they do not mean Tolstoi or Shakespeare -- They are referring to "Casablanca" and "Star Wars". They mean The Beetles and Hank Williams SR. They mean Red Skelton and "I Love Lucy." They seldom refer to a book any more.

The printed page is no longer the sacred repository of knowledge and wisdom. It is digital media that can, and does, record sight, sound, and captioning, for posterity. It records expressions, tone of voice -- and complete ASL.

Reading and writing books are handy, and I enjoy both, but camcorders and computers are superior.

I have to say this...

Booooooooom

 

[Deafguy25]

I'm not sure where to find it. I have been searching and am unable. I know I saved it to my hard drive, but I also cannot find that. I am not doing well this evening due to having a lot going on in my head. My mother has just fallen and so has my MIL, so that is more important. Also a little off-topic.

You just keep on spewing your stuff and I will just ignore it from now on, since I know what I have read.

I wasn't trying to be rude, I just wanted to know if there was more recent, more positive information out there. I would love to see it.

 

[Deafguy25]

I detect a surprising audist tone coming from our DoD guy.


She seems to have problems with verbal communication from what I can tell. Is it related to her speech? I'm a little puzzled. I know deaf with no speech skills who can write better English than me and that's saying a great deal.

Where are you getting audism from? Unfortunately, from what I have read, regardless of which language deaf kids use, they struggle with reading and writing. I would LOVE to be proven wrong!

 

[Deafguy25]

Passing tests do NOT help you get ahead in LIFE. They help you get a better pay check. NOT the same.

I am.

A child should be tested for progress on that which they have studied.

You see children, by their very nature are curious about the world and WANT to learn. They just don't ALWAYS want to learn what the teacher wants to teach them at the time the teacher wants to teach them.

The interesting thing is that if you teach a child what they WANT to learn they will learn those things they need to know in order to learn it. Usually this means acquiring skills in math and reading.

As the child changes and their interest widen they will change, add too, or amend, what they want to learn.

Most teachers force children to learn. A great teacher inspires children to learn.

Most of the things considered "essential" to learn in school could be better taught through games, dance, songs, and play, than with traditional methods.



The definition of literate as "being able to read and write" is both over rated and out dated.

When people speak of "Classics" now days they do not mean Tolstoi or Shakespeare -- They are referring to "Casablanca" and "Star Wars". They mean The Beetles and Hank Williams SR. They mean Red Skelton and "I Love Lucy." They seldom refer to a book any more.

The printed page is no longer the sacred repository of knowledge and wisdom. It is digital media that can, and does, record sight, sound, and captioning, for posterity. It records expressions, tone of voice -- and complete ASL.

Reading and writing books are handy, and I enjoy both, but camcorders and computers are superior.

I can't believe that people are celebrating the demise of literacy! Just because there are factions within pop culture that celebrate ignorance, doesn't mean that we should accept it.

I can't believe that someone actually just said that being able to read and right is "overrated" and "outdated".

Oh, and how are you communicating on the computer if you can't type and how do you read the captions if you can't read?

 

[Daredevel7]

I can't believe that people are celebrating the demise of literacy! Just because there are factions within pop culture that celebrate ignorance, doesn't mean that we should accept it.

I can't believe that someone actually just said that being able to read and right is "overrated" and "outdated".

Oh, and how are you communicating on the computer if you can't type and how do you read the captions if you can't read?

Text to speech? Oh wait no that won't work for deaf people...

There's always computer generated avatars to sign it for you. If such a thing exists today.

You can always get an interpreter to read it and interpret it for you.

Engrish! BAH!!!

I prefer Shakespeare in ASL.

</sarcasm>

 

[Daredevel7]

Seriously, I do think we should have testing to measure progress of education. While it technically makes sense that learning English is not needed, you can say that about ANY subject really. I mean come on, math? Do you REALLY need to know it nowadays? Everyone has a calculator on their phone and can easily do tips or divide to figure out who owes what. Science? Who the hell cares what genus an oyster is? History.. it happened, get over it.

So when you start questioning about learning English in the first place, you really are questioning on whether we should learn anything other than the basics of living. If people wanna know more, then so be it, there's books, internet, etc., but why should we be forced to learn most of the crap we learned in middle/high school that we never use for the rest of our lives?

 

[dogmom]

I can see what Berry and PFH mean.

I think being able to at least functionally read and write in print-based, "majority/minority" society is important and many students in the U.S. do not learn this for a wide variety of reasons.

but I also think there are many ways of knowing and seeing and still too often U.S./Western educational perspectives miss that.

testing can have its biases based on the society which develops and maintains the test