Experiences with my daughter.

[deafskeptic]

We all have moments like that, Angel.

 

[Grummer]

Nah, CS stands for Counter Strike LOL

 

[jillio]

Nah, CS stands for Counter Strike LOL

Good one!

 

[shel90]

I have yet to meet a hearing child of deaf parents who never learned to hear and speak. So although your theory is acceptable, it does not relate into practice. And comparing being in hearing WORLD to religious HOME is fallicious argument. Even so, a child who grew up in religious home although not religious himself inadvertently KNOWS about religion more than those who grew in non- religious one.




The problem with you jill is that you are trying too hard to exaggerate Lotte's disability to your own benefit. You need to keep yourself self convinced that only the deaf world is a right way for deaf- it isn't, and not anymore, thanks to technology.
More and more deaf people chose to CI and like it so much they preffer to spend more time in a hearing world than their own. That was the main complain on this board of many deaf people about their friends who got CI - "they left/betrayed deaf community".

True, Lotte is by disability deaf and has to wear CI in order to hear, to be able to communicate with others, but so what. To be accepted by her hearing peers she does not need to depend on her ability to hear.
I am suprised you with your degrees doesn't know that.
People with any values will not reject her because of her disability, and those who will are simply not worth her (Lotte) anyway. As long as she will have good self esteem, she will be accepted by those who matter. And she WILL have good- GREAT! self esteem thanks to parents she have.


As for CI failing- exactly how many CIs failed disastrously and irreparably during use so far? again I see a lot of exaggeration - short of natural disaster and war there shouldn't be any problem for quick fix in case of CI failure.
The same as applies to HAs - you can even loan for the time of repair if none of yours are working. As a last resort- Lotte ALWAYS can learn sign language.

You are segregating deaf from hearing. Not good. By this way of thinking, what chances your son has of succeding in hearing world?
we all know generally hearing pple are not going to learn ASL for him.


Fuzzy

If only u knew...

 

[Tousi]

If only u knew...

But, but, Shel, that would require a swift kick in the WHOOPS to achieve that so that's out.

 

[shel90]

But, but, Shel, that would require a swift kick in the WHOOPS to achieve that so that's out.

 

[rick48]

My guess is that the child raised with both speech and sign but still deaf would still have problems being included in the family outings because speech does tend to be fast paced and delayed as you say. Translating in family gatherings and activities where not all people sign can also cause those communcation delays and one does not always know what transpired.
But when the element of understanding speech through a CI is added there should be less stress, much easier to lip read when one has some hearing. Of course not everyone will get the same level of comprehension and the CI will not work for everyone but things are much more relaxed when trying to enjoy anything that includes larger groups.

Jag,

You are right. In our family our daughter is very much a part of a large extended family. She is extremely close to her grandmother and will go out with her two older cousins who are in their mid-20s.

I have to say having raised a ci child from 2 1/2 to almost 21 and being around other deaf and ci kids over this time period, this portrait of doom and gloom is just not so for every deaf child. Maybe its the water in Ohio, but here in New York our ci kids and our oral kids are thriving. They are all virtually mainstreamed and going to great colleges and now some are even in grad school.

Yes all kids go through a change and for girls I would put that at 5th-6th grade but each kid is different. For my older daughter, the change was not difficult because her core group of friends were all very good, nice kids. Actually the transition for my hearing daughter was much rougher and she is the classic "perfect" kid-very smart, great athlete, attractive etc but her core goup of friends broke up and splintered in different directions.

My daughter was never singled out at her HS for being deaf she was not known as the deaf kid but just one of the kids in her class. Being deaf was no big thing because she, like they, all spoke the same language and that is what made all the difference.

So Cloggy, ignore the doom and gloomers, you are doing great with Lotte and enjoy the ride.
Rick

 

[jillio]

Jag,

You are right. In our family our daughter is very much a part of a large extended family. She is extremely close to her grandmother and will go out with her two older cousins who are in their mid-20s.

I have to say having raised a ci child from 2 1/2 to almost 21 and being around other deaf and ci kids over this time period, this portrait of doom and gloom is just not so for every deaf child. Maybe its the water in Ohio, but here in New York our ci kids and our oral kids are thriving. They are all virtually mainstreamed and going to great colleges and now some are even in grad school.

Yes all kids go through a change and for girls I would put that at 5th-6th grade but each kid is different. For my older daughter, the change was not difficult because her core group of friends were all very good, nice kids. Actually the transition for my hearing daughter was much rougher and she is the classic "perfect" kid-very smart, great athlete, attractive etc but her core goup of friends broke up and splintered in different directions.

My daughter was never singled out at her HS for being deaf she was not known as the deaf kid but just one of the kids in her class. Being deaf was no big thing because she, like they, all spoke the same language and that is what made all the difference.

So Cloggy, ignore the doom and gloomers, you are doing great with Lotte and enjoy the ride.
Rick

And, your daughter now has deaf friends who are signers, does she not?

 

[loml]

Unless one is cuing into the hand of a blind individual, as in tactile signing, no, I don't see how a system of using handshapes arranged at the head upper body of the speaker is tactile. How exactly is the sense of touch involved. And I doubt seriously that this system has ever been used with deaf/blind, as it is necessary to see the mouth movements for the cuing to be relevant.

And it isn't inclusion because it is still adapting based on the needs of the hearing family members and not the needs of the deaf family member. Perhpas you don't understand the concept of inclusion.

And, youdid not answer my question, but simply posed another one, which is a classic example of avoidance. How is CS tactile? AYou made the statement, it is up to you to support and validate your assumption.

I most certainly answered your question.

jillio

How exactly, is CS a tactile system?

loml

Cueing is very tactile, it is very much about the sense of touch. How could it not be tactile?

jillio

How exactly is the sense of touch involved. And I doubt seriously that this system has ever been used with deaf/blind, as it is necessary to see the mouth movements for the cuing to be relevant.

I cannot beleive that you are actually need me to explain this to you. You are the one the emphatically has stated you "get" Cued Speech. Obviously a very false statement for you to make.

See your fingers.... you use them to cue, you touch yourself at the corner of your mouth or touch your throat... guess what...lots of nerves in your finger and skin... and you are TOUCHING ...makes cueing tactile. That make sense to you yet? Simplified enough for you now?

Cueing is used with the deaf-blind, want a reference page to read or perhaps a phone number so you can ask them yourself?

jillio

And it isn't inclusion because it is still adapting based on the needs of the hearing family members and not the needs of the deaf family member.

LOL....like I said before for you to claim CS isn't inclusion is ludicrious!

Sad that you choose to remain uneducated regarding a such an amazing system.

 

[rick48]

And, your daughter now has deaf friends who are signers, does she not?

Jillio,
My daughter has always had deaf friends. From when she was first diagnosed we have always been involved with the deaf community and deaf organizations. She has always known both deaf adults and children.

Her deaf friends are all oral some of whom can sign but all of whom use spoken English as their primary language. She may have one or two friends who sign only. That is just not her social circle. She communictes orally, she does not like to sign, her preference is to speak.
Rick

 

[jillio]

I most certainly answered your question.

jillio

loml

jillio

I cannot beleive that you are actually need me to explain this to you. You are the one the emphatically has stated you "get" Cued Speech. Obviously a very false statement for you to make.

See your fingers.... you use them to cue, you touch yourself at the corner of your mouth or touch your throat... guess what...lots of nerves in your finger and skin... and you are TOUCHING ...makes cueing tactile. That make sense to you yet? Simplified enough for you now?

Cueing is used with the deaf-blind, want a reference page to read or perhaps a phone number so you can ask them yourself?

jillio

LOL....like I said before for you to claim CS isn't inclusion is ludicrious!

Sad that you choose to remain uneducated regarding a such an amazing system.

Okay, let's get very specific here, as I see you need a breakdown inorder to understand the question. Exactly how means please explain the process by which touch is directly involved in cued speech. Where exactly, in the process of cuing, does the sense of touch occur, and exactly how does it occur? So, you see, you have not answered my question.

And to state that a language is tactile, as you have done, means that transmission and reception of that language is dependent upon tactile sense. Unless that tactile sense is used somehow from sender to receiver, the language is not tactile. That's like saying that writing is tactile because the pen in our hand touches the paper. Merely using your fingers to form a handshape is not tactile; it is kinesthetic and spatial.

 

[loml]

Thick as two planks

Okay, let's get very specific here, as I see you need a breakdown inorder to understand the question. Exactly how means please explain the process by which touch is directly involved in cued speech. Where exactly, in the process of cuing, does the sense of touch occur, and exactly how does it occur? So, you see, you have not answered my question.

And to state that a language is tactile, as you have done, means that transmission and reception of that language is dependent upon tactile sense. Unless that tactile sense is used somehow from sender to receiver, the language is not tactile. That's like saying that writing is tactile because the pen in our hand touches the paper. Merely using your fingers to form a handshape is not tactile; it is kinesthetic and spatial.

I am quite aware of your question. You are the one who chooses not to understand the answer. Perhaps if I could draw you a picture that would work better for you.

I never stated

a language is tactile

, as you claim. Please do not make claims that you cannot substantiate.

CS is a tactile system. move on.....

 

[jillio]

I am quite aware of your question. You are the one who chooses not to understand the answer. Perhaps if I could draw you a picture that would work better for you.

I never stated , as you claim. Please do not make claims that you cannot substantiate.

CS is a tactile system. move on.....

No, CS is not a tactile system. It is a manual and visual system. Braille is a tactile system. One must touch the code in order to receive the message. One does not have to feel the handsahpe of the communicator in order to receive the message. One must only see it. Therefore, it is not a tactile system. I do believe it is you who does not understand the wording you are using.

 

[loml]

Any pennies dropping yet?

No, CS is not a tactile system. It is a manual and visual system. Braille is a tactile system. One must touch the code in order to receive the message. One does not have to feel the handsahpe of the communicator in order to receive the message. One must only see it. Therefore, it is not a tactile system. I do believe it is you who does not understand the wording you are using.

I have a very clear understanding of the words I choose to use.

One does not only see cueing, one also feels cueing by touching. CS is tactile.

Move on.

 

[jillio]

I have a very clear understanding of the words I choose to use.

One does not only see cueing, one also feels cueing by touching. CS is tactile.

Move on.

One does not feel cuing in order to receive the message. One does not touch the person to whom the message is being communicated. In order for it to be tactile, the sense of touch would be necessary in the receiver of the message, not just the sender. Communication is dyadic. So, sorry, but you are incorrect. CS is not tactile. Why do you think the difference is qualified in signing and tactile signing? They are two different modes. One is not tactile, one is. CS is non-tactile.

 

[Buffalo]

tac·tile (tktl, -tl)
adj.
1.
a. Perceptible to the sense of touch; tangible.
b. Characterized by or conveying an illusion of tangibility: "Heaney must thus continue to be a poet rich in tactile language" Helen Vendler.
2. Used for feeling: a tactile organ.
3. Of, relating to, or proceeding from the sense of touch; tactual: a tactile reflex.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[From Latin tctilis, from tctus, past participle of tangere, to touch; see tact.]


Cued speech is not tactile according to this definition. Loml, How does one feel the cued speech?

This link is alittle off but it is about Cued speech and the link remind me of this quarrel on this thread and other threads as well.
Would Galileo Have Cued?

 

[Cloggy]

Simply being able to hear sounds is not living in a hearing world, just as simply being unable to hear sounds is not living in a deaf world. It has to do with values and norms, and being exposed to others who share life circiumstances, and thus, being able to develop meaningful relationships with those people. It has to do with envirnmental influences on self concept.

Living in a religious home does not make one religious. One has to practice the beliefs, the values, and subscribe to the norms; in other words, adopt the cultural values. Same with deaf and hearing. It is far too simplistic to reduce it to whether one is able to perceive sound or not.

Exactly...
That's why a deaf child is not automatically Deaf, nor is a deaf child that can hear automatically loosing her identity. On the contrairy. Identity is there.... just not the one d/Deaf people can identify with..

 

[Cloggy]

When the CI is functioning. But behind that little CI is still a deaf child. And the sad fact of the amtter is.cloggy, that the very fact that she is wearing a CI will be sufficient to illustrate the fact that she is different fromthe hearing children. If you think that will not be an issue, you are sadly mistaken.

Appearently, you are making sure it is going to be an issue. Any child with CI that you get influence upon, will have to realise they are deaf. Like it or not.
We are not making an issue out of it. The friends in the kindergarten are not making an issue out of it. Does that mean that it will never be an issue. Probably not. And we are constantly aware of issues.... but unlike you, I will not make an issue when there is not....

As Lotte gets older, her focus will change from family to peers. It is a developmental stage that all children, hearing or deaf, go through. There will be a time, at approximately 8-10 years of age, when her CI will cause her to stand out as "different", jsut as HAs do, or the use of sign language does, or being made to wear a large FM system does, or having an interpreter follow youfrom class to class does. That difference, in and of itself, will suffiecient for the majority of hearing kids to reject her as being different from them. It is sufficient for hearing peers to reject her. Things that very young children don't take notice of suddenly become very important at this age. And it is also very important that she have an environment where she is not so different as a buffer to this treatment fromthe majority.

Gee, really.....
And in order to prevent that from happening, we need to get her out of her environment and look for deaf people. So, in the case we find one or two, she is forced to play with these.. Like it or not.
No, thank you... she is happy where she is. She is doing very well, and learning to cope with any handicap she might come across. She is getting lots of help. The same as she would need when playing with a deaf child. She would need help there as well.
And of course she will get rejected by some. Would this not happen in an all-deaf environment? Could it be that no matter what, children are rejected by their peers.. sounds like ... life...

This is something that occurs on a daily basis with deaf children inthe mainstream. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen. Every deaf adult or older child who has been mainstreamed has stories of the emotional isolation they have experienced in such a situation. It is a common thread that binds deaf individuals together.

and the same for hearing people....

To have supportive ties within a community of those who share your circumstances acts as a buffer for what is to come, and insures that the danange that is not only possible, but inevitable, will have far less impact.

Exactly... ties with the community. That is what is happening now. That what she is doing right now.... Sad that you don't see that..

The issue is not just whether one child can hear another.

Actually, that is a big issue. You might want to marginalise it, in the rest of the world that is very important...

The whole experience of living and growing is a social experience. That social experience will impact her life and her sense of well being far more than whether or not she can hear and speak. The social experience of an oral deaf person is not the same as the social experience of a hearing person. And try as you might, you cannot protect her from that, and you cannot make it so by ignoring the fact. What you can do, however, is provide her with an environment that will mitigate it. Those connections need to be made when a child is young, so that they are available when they get older.

"oral deaf person" and "oral deaf person with CI" are two quite different things... You need more boxes to put deaf people in I guess...
And we are providing a safe environment for her, because we know that there will be issues in the future...
Why do you think that a deaf environment is the only environment that will be able to deal with the issues...?? It is not.

You keep emphasizing the fact that Lotte is young....yes, she is, and you have a great deal of influence over her now. But that will change. It is inevitable. You cannot keep her insulated from the rest of society. There is much that she will face as a result of her deafness that has absolutley nothing to do with her ability to speak and hear with her CI.

Absolutely... and with people explaining to her how deaf she is, how she has to have contact with deaf people, how she has to know sign, because she is going to be rejected etc.... I don't feel that that kind of "support" will be good for her.. in fact, I'm sure.

So, please,
When you meet a child with CI, don't automatically assume that it (he/she for you) needs help.... YOu might depress him/her with your "help"...

 

[Angel]

No, CS is not a tactile system. It is a manual and visual system. Braille is a tactile system. One must touch the code in order to receive the message. One does not have to feel the handsahpe of the communicator in order to receive the message. One must only see it. Therefore, it is not a tactile system. I do believe it is you who does not understand the wording you are using.

You're correct, cured speech is not a tactile system, it is a manual and visual communication system... Braille refers to a tactile reading and writing system...

I find the link that referring to Braille http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/pn/fd/documents/braillereadstand.pdf

 

[Audiofuzzy]

And may bery well, because of that knowledge, opt out of endorsingthose values and norms of the religious community.

jills, jills, jills - before you fall from a deep end again, may I remind you -
I asked Liebling HOW DO YOU KEEP a HEARING CHILD FROM HEARING WORLD?
I didn't ask her how you INDOCTRINATE it.

Once agian fuzzy, you have totally missed the point.

Looks more like you did...

I said, it is not dependent upon hearing and speaking, but on accepted and transmitted values and norms.

who cares since this not what I was asking...

And how in the hell is it a benefit to me to exaggerate Lotte's disability?

By negating any positive aspects of a deaf person being immersed in hearing world and exaggerating negatives, you reassure yourself that the choice you took with your son is the right one.

You completely miss the poit. CI does not amke one hearing. It provides sound perception to a degree. And there is more to a community than ears and mouth. You really are naive.

Do remember that it was yourself who just a few paragraphs earlier were persuading me about:

It has to do with values and norms, and being exposed to others who share life circiumstances, and thus, being able to develop meaningful relationships with those people. It has to do with envirnmental influences on self concept.

I suppose it works both ways...

Quite obviously, you know nothing about acceptance issues. Stick to what you know, fuzzy.

Of course, silly me- what do I know about acceptance -me, who grew up with progressive hearing loss in hearing enviroment all my life... sorry sorry...
(and skulking away under a rock...)

What world do you live in, fuzzy? Evidently, is is one of unreality.

From my non-existent experience....the same as you?

Oh, please! Again with talking out of your mouth before your brainhas been engaged.

hmm.. shouldn't you rather apply it to yourself?

My son has already achieved success.

Congratulations. But - what did he achieved that nobody else did?


Oh, and one more thing (off topic) - please do clean up your many typos before you send your message into cyberspace- reading your posts so littered with it is very tiring. One or two, even three mistakes - it's okay, but you have way too many.

Fuzzy