EVIDENCE of being deaf with Hearing Aid device

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SM, there are no guarantees in life. ASL certainly does not gaurantee you a good Deaf Education. Not in your school day nor in todays!

Strictly speaking, languages don't make a good education. Communication does. Language is a communication tool. It isn't communication.

If hearing people do not read a book or do depend on listening that they couldnt write a good spelling or English language that will show that they are not learning anything..

Thats what we all need to use our brains, eyes and hands to learn. Thats for Deaf children s alternative needs Thanks!

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Thank you! ;)
Sweetmind
 
Fuzzy you need to read 400 writings :whistle: that I have stated so many times.. I dont have to repeat after all I realized that you have a serious problem with reading issue :dunno: . Thanks!

You dont get it.

You are not opening your eyes and having a wake up calls yet. Bye!

ummm Sweetie..... if anybody have a problem with reading and understandig it, it's you not me.


When I wrote "your special language" I meant the language you have NOW after years of being oral ASL SEE BIBI FBI and what not.

Fuzzy
 
Sweetmind said:
Strictly speaking, languages don't make a good education. Communication does. Language is a communication tool. It isn't communication.......
I think that in your little world you are absolutely right. You do not communicate, so ye, you are right.
In the rest of the world communication is mainly done using language. Schools, universities teach using language. I communicate in 3 different languages daily and I am educated in the proces.

Communication - according to you - makes for good education??? If it isn'e language - it must be ASL. And if that is what you think..... it explains a lot.

And - thanks for not answering to this post.... because that would be .... communication!!
 
SM
Strictly speaking, languages don't make a good education
.

Not being able to read or write the language is not good education.

SM
Thats what we all need to use our brains, eyes and hands to learn. Thats for Deaf children s alternative needs Thanks!

SM, what are you afraid of? It appears to me that you choose to not or simply cannot understand how children aquire language.

You are behaving fanatical.
 
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Bi-Bi Education for the deaf is not worth it.. because it put speech last and sometime skip it entirely... What they do is teach kids ASL first then later on writing.. (they will struggle in writing which I have seen at NTID) and not motivated in speech.

My idea of Education for the deaf in mainstreaming setting.. raise them using oral approaches (there are several approaches like auditory oral, auditory verbal or Cued Speech) from preschool to high school. they are allowed to know sign language AFTER school hours as visual aids at home if needs arise. If some kids are successfully raised using oral approaches without signs then during high school, those deaf kids are required to take ASL course. since high school require students to take foreign language course so there fore they can take ASL from level 1 to 4 and a course in deaf culture. and once they graduate, they can choose the path themselves afterwards...

AT least they are educated well enough in english literacy either spoken or written. :D

What do you thinks guys?
 
Boult said:
Bi-Bi Education for the deaf is not worth it.. because it put speech last and sometime skip it entirely... What they do is teach kids ASL first then later on writing.. (they will struggle in writing which I have seen at NTID) and not motivated in speech.

My idea of Education for the deaf in mainstreaming setting.. raise them using oral approaches (there are several approaches like auditory oral, auditory verbal or Cued Speech) from preschool to high school. they are allowed to know sign language AFTER school hours as visual aids at home if needs arise. If some kids are successfully raised using oral approaches without signs then during high school, those deaf kids are required to take ASL course. since high school require students to take foreign language course so there fore they can take ASL from level 1 to 4 and a course in deaf culture. and once they graduate, they can choose the path themselves afterwards...

AT least they are educated well enough in english literacy either spoken or written. :D

What do you thinks guys?


Boult,

For the most part I would support your model. There are just three points that I would modify (if I may):)

1. I think ideally deaf children should have the opportunity to be with other deaf children, if the population warrents a deaf school. I do not support residential schools. I understand that mainstreaming does have its place.

2. I question whether making ASL a mandatory "foreign language" option for high school would be successful. I am not suggesting that it shouldn't be available to them though.

3. Cued English/Cued Speech does not have to be an oral programme. ( yes I know I am like a broken record) :) It can certainly work well with an oral program and many people that do cue are oral .... or not. :)






.
 
Very good to read between AISL and ASL and first interpreter

A book is STEP INTO THE CIRCLE: The Heartbeat of American Indian, Alaska Ntive, and First Nations Deaf Communities

Edited by

Damara Goff Paris ( I met him personal in spiritual gathering) and Sharon Kay Wood (I knew her personal that she was a Deaf teacher and my personal advisor for JRNAD). ;)

Page 37 to 39

A Brief Overview of the Contributions of AISL to ASL
by Damara Goff Paris, Sharon Kay wood and Katrina Miller

" American sign langauge belongs to the Deaf community. Traditionally, our sign language belongs to everybody, both deaf and hearing"--- Unknown

American Indian Sign Language (AISL) is an important part of the Native community. We would be remiss to not include several theories about the contribution of AISL to American Sign Language (ASL). We do not purport to be experts, and encourage the reader to research further, learning from various scholars of AISL. however, it s important to get a sense of the history behind AISL, which we have attempted to do in this article.

Approximately 60% of ASL is made up of a combination of existing natural sign languages in America, and the French methodical signing system that Louis Laurent Marie Clerc, known as Laurent Clerc (1785 - 1869), contributed when he came over from France in the 1800s. Where did the other 40 % come from? Is it possible that some of the sign languages of the Native American tribes became a part of American Sign Langauge?

AISL was in use long before ASL. Most non-native Americans view American Indians as one culture, with common cultureal bonds. Actually, each tribe had its own subculture, spiritual practices, family kinship, hierarchy, and concepts about the origins of the universe. They used AISL to communicate with other tribes who did not share a commone language, often for the purpose of bartering or storytelling. In addition, Europen traders and mountain men learned AISL in order to trade with the tribes.

Communication through gesture was useful to warriors in combat, givnig signs to each other oer a considerable distance in order to surprise the enemy. the hunt required a special means of communiation in order not to distubr the wary prey. During their hunting trips, American Indians encountered other tribes who were strangers to them. Because they did not speak the same language they developed sign language to communicate and to identify oneself as friendly or share tribal affiliatioins.

A six nations Chief, Disappearing Mist (also known as John Smoke Johnson Sakayenkwaraghton, (1792-1886) toldthe 19th century expert on AISL, Garrick Mallery, that Iroquois women and children had always used sign languages when in the preene of warriors and elders. Using their voices was considered disrespectful.

Delegatioins of Indians were occassional visitors to the Pennsylvania Institution for the Deaf in 1873, where they conversed with students and teachers in pantomine and ASL. They experienced no-difficulty understanding the sign langauge used by deaf students who in turn did have difficultury understanding that of the Indians.

AISL signs are usually broader in meaning than ASL. The signs are made against the background of the sky (toward nature), whereas ASL makes signs closer to the body. AISL can be read at a much greater distance than ASL. Uswers of AISL tend to us only one finger but with ASL , numberous signs are made by fingers alone. In ASL, one signs NO using more than one finger.

In general , AISL is used idiomatically to convey ideas. Beckoning with one's finger means COME while outward wave of the hands means GO. one "nods" the right iindex finger up and down to indicate YES while turning the right hand over means NO. Almost all signs in AISL are made with the right hand.

Unexposed to many of the diseases that caused deafness, deaf Indians were rare until the Europens comes to America and spread new diseases that wiped out large numbers of Indians. those who lost their hearing were almost indistinguishable in tribes where AISL was used frequently.

In discussing early sign influenes on signnig communities, one may compare the signing community that once existed on Martha's Vineyard to other signing communities such as the larger American Deaf Community where the deaf inhabitants stared moving off Martha's Vineyard island to attend the first permanent school for the deaf in American, established in Connecticut in 1817. One in every 150 person from the 1700s to the early 1900's, mostly in chilmark and West tisbury were deaf, and even the hearing people learned sign language. While we are able to present here some initial findings about American Indian Sign Language (MVSL, more research and analysis is needed. What is known, at this point, is that the Wampanoags (which means "eastern," or "people of the dawn") had already exchanged some spoken langauge and sign language with the pilgrims when they bartered, feasted, planted, and hunted. Theoretically, they could have blended some Indian sign langauge in with MVSL.

It is important to acknowledge the contributions of what is believeed to be the first American Indian woman who performed as an interpreter. In 1805, Sacajawea (1754-1815), also known as Sacagawea (Bird Woman) carried her six weeks old baby Jean- Baptiste in a cradle board strapped to her back and accompanied Captan Meriwether Lewis and Captain William lark by the order of Thomas Jefferson, President of the United States, on the expedition from St. Louis, Missouri, to the Pacific Ocean for two years.

Historically, Sacajawea had lived with her people of the Shosshoni (people who Live in the Valley) for 12 years, until one day she was taken away from her home by the Hidastas. Originally Sacajawea's father, who was the chief, named her Boinaiv, which meant "Grass Maiden," but after she was kidnaped by the Hidastas, renamed her Sacajawea. Sacajawea went from being a chief's daughter to being a slave.

She was sold into slavery to the Missouri River Mandans, who , in turn, sold her to a French-Canadian fur trader, Toussiant Charbonneau, who lived near Bismarck, North Dakota. Four years later, in 1804, Sacajawea was by thenCharbonneau's second wife and he brought her with him to accompany the Lewis Clark expedition as an interpreter. Mr Clark wanted to hire Sacajawea as an interpreter because she knew Shoshoni language. Charbonneau was engaged as a chief interpreter and guide, with the understanding that Sacajawea was to fascilitate several spoken languages (Shoshoni and Siouan) and Plains Indian Sign Language (PISL) between the tribes and the explorers.

Sacajawea translated Shoshoni into Hidatsa for her husband, who would then translate the communication into English for Lewis and Clark. When the language barriers were insurmountable, Sacjawea communicated with others by PISL. Sacajawea proved to be a valuable lisaison for the explorers.

Some claim she died in 1814, and others assert it was well after she interpreted at several councils from 1850 through the 1870's. Regardless, she is the first historically recognized female interpreter. Her sons Baptiste and Bazil, would also become iterpreters at Indian councils and on treaty-signing occasions.

The 1998-2002 Intertribal Deaf Council (IDC) president, Linda J. Carroll, recently issued a challenge to those working to preserve indigenous languages. She urged them not neglect native signed languages which may be the only language accessile for many American Indians who are deaf. She used examples of the famous Chief Sitting Bull, who had a deaf stepson, Mountain blue. He could communicate with any of his people and be anything he wanted to be, without an interpreter.

A Lakota Elder once stated, "The Wakan(Holy Ones) know all the languages, including sign. "Traditional signed languages need to be rebitalized, not forgotten. A historical collaboration between IDC, National Muilticultural Interpreter project (NMIP), and the American Indian Rehabilitation Research and Training Center (AIRRTC) from Northern Arizona University, resulted in the first ever Summer Institute for Sign Language interpreters working with American Indian and Alaska Native deaf communities. This course of study was held at the New Mexico School for the Deaf at Santa Fe in 1999.

IDC President Carroll states, "In Indian Sign Language, we have no words for help or rehabilitation. We can sign WORK-TOGETHER. Deaf natives want partners, not saviors, That's the Traditional way---- equality in the circle."

Despite the contributions of AISL, there are many differences between modern ASL and how AISL is used today. Additionally, there are differences in how Traditional First Nations deaf people, who do not use AISL, use pronouns, eye contact, facial markers and time markers. However some use ASL.

For the Navajo (Dine'), the custom is to not point at any person or object. Instead, the Navajo (Dine') purse their lips facing the person or object. In ASL, pointing is a common part of the grammatical structure of the language. Those unfamiliar with the Navajo (Dine') culture, might translate the pursed lips as I DO NOT CARE or SO WHAT. A misinterpretation of this method of "pointing" would label the user as someone with a negative attitude.

There are other differences, as well. In ASL, natural facial expressions express specific emotions. In Navajo (Dine'), they emphasize express specific emotions. In Navajo (Dine'), they emphasize customs, not emotions. Awareness of Navajo (Dine') taboos against using fingers to piont will increase one's ability to codeswitch effectively between ASL and AISL, as well as improve an intrpreter's ability to provide clear and accurate interpretation between AISL and ASL.

The most prevalent use of AISL in the U.S. comes from PISL. The pictures in the next few pages demonstrated by Mark Azure, are mostly signs used by the Plains Indians.

to learn more about the history and use of AISL from the prespectives of different tribes, you can check out these books and articles at your local library:

Bayton, D.C.(1996). Forbidden signs: American culture and the campaign against sign language, Chicago,IL: The Universityof Chicago Press.

Clark, W.P (1885). Indian sign langauge. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press-Bison Books.

Cody, I.E. (1970). Indian talk. Healburg, CA: Naturegraph.

Heinemann, S. (1996). Timlines of american women's history. New York: the Berkeley Publishing Group.

Indian Arts and Craft Board Members. (1930). Plains indian sign language: A memorial to the conference. Browning, MT: United States Department of the Interior.

Kelly, W.P., and MGregor, T.L. (2001). Kersean pueblo Indian sign language. orlando, FL: Deaf Studies VII Conference.

Mallery,G. (1879-1880), Sign Language among North Americans. Bureau of American Education Annual Report. Washington, D.C.: Smithsonian Insitution D.C.

McKay-Cody, M. (1997). Plains Indian sign language: A comparative study of alternative and primary signers. Master's Abstracts International,35(05), 1142.

Wurtzberg, S., & Campbell, L. (1995). North American Indian Sign Language: Evidence of its existence before European contact. International Journal of American Linguistics. 62(2), 153-167.

Moore M. and Panara, R.F. (1996). Great deaf Americans, Rochester N.Y.: Deaf Life Press.

Wissler, C. (1996). Iindians of the United States. New York: Doubleday Anchor.

For children or beginning AISL signers:

Liptak, K. (1990). North American Indian sign language. New York: Franklin Watts.

I am very glad I went to their Spiritual Gathering in Canada last few years ago. I learned and enjoyed so much that I will never forgotten about Deaf Native Americans that I have met many of them that comes from the book. I am proud of them and their successful in their Education from New Mexico School for the Deaf and Gallaudet University and others. ;)

**5** for Deaf Native Americans that it hits me hard and angry at AUDISM people for refusing about ASL that helps us more than you think.
 
OH please boult. Nice try! You dont know nothing because you have not tried it before.. What a liar he is! Many deaf oralists from oral deaf school and mainstream who came in NTID that explains why they have a hard time to learn ENGLISH written without ASL nowadays. I can see hearing people with audist attitude take granted of ignorant deaf oralism with audist attitude as usual.

NO wonder there are huge deaf oralists in NTID and RIT. NTID Is more favorism on ORALISM rules. Thats fact.
 
Boult said:
Bi-Bi Education for the deaf is not worth it.. because it put speech last and sometime skip it entirely... What they do is teach kids ASL first then later on writing.. (they will struggle in writing which I have seen at NTID) and not motivated in speech.

My idea of Education for the deaf in mainstreaming setting.. raise them using oral approaches (there are several approaches like auditory oral, auditory verbal or Cued Speech) from preschool to high school. they are allowed to know sign language AFTER school hours as visual aids at home if needs arise. If some kids are successfully raised using oral approaches without signs then during high school, those deaf kids are required to take ASL course. since high school require students to take foreign language course so there fore they can take ASL from level 1 to 4 and a course in deaf culture. and once they graduate, they can choose the path themselves afterwards...

AT least they are educated well enough in english literacy either spoken or written. :D

What do you thinks guys?


Boult, Congratulations....you just shot your foot.

I wonder if Fragmentor and Greema who fluent in ASL can not write very well?
 
loml said:
Boult,

For the most part I would support your model. There are just three points that I would modify (if I may):)

1. I think ideally deaf children should have the opportunity to be with other deaf children, if the population warrents a deaf school. I do not support residential schools. I understand that mainstreaming does have its place.

2. I question whether making ASL a mandatory "foreign language" option for high school would be successful. I am not suggesting that it shouldn't be available to them though.

3. Cued English/Cued Speech does not have to be an oral programme. ( yes I know I am like a broken record) :) It can certainly work well with an oral program and many people that do cue are oral .... or not. :)

1) Agreed. It could be day school or charter school like we have one in Phoenix. I am not believer of residential school at all. Been there done that.

2) considering they will spend 4 years in high school right? each level for each year. each level can be broken down into quarters or semesters.

3) I know but mentioned it as part of Oral Approaches as per this website but i know it is not really a oral method I knew that already but see what it describe;
http://www.bionicear.com/support/betterliving/jfp_communication.asp
Oral Approaches
Auditory-Oral (Multi-sensory) – Requires children to use their residual hearing in combination with speechreading, kinesthetics or tactile cues, such as placing the child’s hand upon the teacher’s throat. This is the most common approach used in self-contained Oral classrooms.

Auditory-Verbal – Emphasizes the use of residual hearing as the primary modality for language learning; may deprive child of speechreading cues by covering mouth; seeks to develop an “attitude of listening” by integrating child into regular schools.

Cued Speech – Uses speech and auditory cues in combination with phonemically-based handshapes that distinguish speech sounds that look alike on the lips.
see, used in combination :)


Now, I left out something. I do know that not every deaf child are same because they all are unique individually. So if the oral approaches does not meet the needs then there is other path then they do not have to go thru this step I outlined above in previous post. That's why I believe in early intervention to find out and assess the need of each deaf kids. My feeling is that the type of deaf education I mentioned above will turn out great students and they will embrace the world lot better than we were before.
So, once we find out that Oral approaches will not meet the need of each child then the Total communication approaches are used instead but with heavy emphasis in english literacy. (not Bi-Bi though)
 
Sweetmind said:
PS: Now you Angel can see why I ignored your many nonsense comments toward me. You are not openminded or listening how Deaf people feels about oral method only. Scoffs! Guess what CI is not the answer for every deaf children s needs that doesnt make them to hear everything. You are giving people into a very wrong impression that we can hear with Devices. Wow! what a liar!


Nonsense comments? not keeping an open mind and a lair? :ugh:
 
Mookie said:
I wonder if Fragmentor and Greema who fluent in ASL can not write very well?

It's FragmentEr but anyway..

Hold your horses -- I don't know why I can read and write English allright. I wouldn't say I write very well because there are other people who are far more creative with words than I am.

I give credit where credit is due: to my older brother and sister who are hearing for their tough love, to my younger deaf sister for all those thoughtful conversations, to my hearing friends I hung out with in mainstream school, to certain deaf people outside the family, to a CODA teacher in elementary school, to my thirst of knowledge and to my parents for their leadership and setting the bar high. Basically, it's taken 25 years and counting yet I'm still learning new tricks every day. The written word is POWERFUL.

But literacy skills is just one of the few tools in my toolbox and a very special one at that. I do wish I could hear spoken words and that I could pronounce important words because that alone would make my life much more easier.
 
Cloggy said:
I think that in your little world you are absolutely right. You do not communicate, so ye, you are right.
In the rest of the world communication is mainly done using language. Schools, universities teach using language. I communicate in 3 different languages daily and I am educated in the proces.

Communication - according to you - makes for good education??? If it isn'e language - it must be ASL. And if that is what you think..... it explains a lot.

And - thanks for not answering to this post.... because that would be .... communication!!
You're always communicating, even if you don't say anything.

She meant that it's not just the choice of languages that determines the quality of education. It's the level of communication between the teacher and student(s) that really matters.
 
Fragmenter said:
It's FragmentEr but anyway..

Hold your horses -- I don't know why I can read and write English allright. I wouldn't say I write very well because there are other people who are far more creative with words than I am.

I give credit where credit is due: to my older brother and sister who are hearing for their tough love, to my younger deaf sister for all those thoughtful conversations, to my hearing friends I hung out with in mainstream school, to certain deaf people outside the family, to a CODA teacher in elementary school, to my thirst of knowledge and to my parents for their leadership and setting the bar high. Basically, it's taken 25 years and counting yet I'm still learning new tricks every day. The written word is POWERFUL.

But literacy skills is just one of the few tools in my toolbox and a very special one at that. I do wish I could hear spoken words and that I could pronounce important words because that alone would make my life much more easier.
Thanks for explaining yourself and not personally attacking anybody. :thumb:
 
Sweetmind said:
Eyeth's


Thank you so much, Eyeth. I would love to have you to come over my place and will make your jaws getting tired because we will have a blast time and laugh each other so much. I m full of surprises as usual. ;)

We will ending up to stay up all night without having a sleep. LOL

Many thanks! ;)

Sweetmind

PS: Now you Angel can see why I ignored your many nonsense comments toward me. You are not openminded or listening how Deaf people feels about oral method only. Scoffs! Guess what CI is not the answer for every deaf children s needs that doesnt make them to hear everything. You are giving people into a very wrong impression that we can hear with Devices. Wow! what a liar!

This has nothing to do with your post, but I just thought I'd let you know Eyeth isn't the one who wrote that, as Eyeth is deaf.
 
Look at this Today, 01:48 PM where I wrote it to eyeth at this number #675. ;)
 
Cloggy said:
Sweetmind doesn't reply to posts...
Anything you write to Sweetmind can and very likely will be ignored. If you decide to write something anyway, it might be taken out of context and used against you! :Owned:

Yes I've stopped reading her posts for that reason. It feels like a one way communication process. The majority of posts that I have written in response to her posts have been ignored. I am getting the message that her reality is the only one that counts.
 
Fragmenter said:
It's FragmentEr but anyway..

Hold your horses -- I don't know why I can read and write English allright. I wouldn't say I write very well because there are other people who are far more creative with words than I am.

I give credit where credit is due: to my older brother and sister who are hearing for their tough love, to my younger deaf sister for all those thoughtful conversations, to my hearing friends I hung out with in mainstream school, to certain deaf people outside the family, to a CODA teacher in elementary school, to my thirst of knowledge and to my parents for their leadership and setting the bar high. Basically, it's taken 25 years and counting yet I'm still learning new tricks every day. The written word is POWERFUL.

But literacy skills is just one of the few tools in my toolbox and a very special one at that. I do wish I could hear spoken words and that I could pronounce important words because that alone would make my life much more easier.
good post :thumb:
 
Sweetmind said:
I dont have to listen to you a hearing person who thinks you know it all. YOu listen to Deaf Leaders if you mind.

Jawohl mein Führer!
 
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